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Battle Creek Morgan: Is your coin changing color?
RYK
Posts: 35,801 ✭✭✭✭✭
This could be entirely a misperception on my part, but here goes. I purchased two Battle Creek Morgans well over a year ago for my son. He likes colorful Morgans--he must get that from his mother. 
At any rate, we had his whole coin box out the other day, and as I was looking through his coins, I noticed that the coloring of one of his Battle Creek Morgans looked a little different than I remembered. I know from a previous exhausting discussion here that these coins are 110% NT. We learned about the bags and the tubes (or was it the tubes and the bags? ), and I do not want to go into all of that again.
However, since the coin is not nestled in the same bag and environment as it had been for over 100 years but now entombed in an NGC holder in my son's coin box in a humid midwestern city, is it possible that the surface is changing? Has anyone else noticed any change in their coins?
At any rate, we had his whole coin box out the other day, and as I was looking through his coins, I noticed that the coloring of one of his Battle Creek Morgans looked a little different than I remembered. I know from a previous exhausting discussion here that these coins are 110% NT. We learned about the bags and the tubes (or was it the tubes and the bags?
), and I do not want to go into all of that again.However, since the coin is not nestled in the same bag and environment as it had been for over 100 years but now entombed in an NGC holder in my son's coin box in a humid midwestern city, is it possible that the surface is changing? Has anyone else noticed any change in their coins?
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Like you say, with out rehashing the entire AT NT debate, I'll say this.
I was involved in the purchase of 2 BC Morgan Dollars that I believe sold for about $4000. About 6 months ago I saw them and thought, as did the owner, that the color had "faded". In fact to the point that they didn't look like $4K coins anymore. The owner decided to sell them at auction where he took a substantial loss.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>RYK,Having some of the better knowledge of the BC coins than many collectors,and only because i saw almost 1000 of them,not any of mine,or any i have seen have changed color at all.FWIW
It's worth a lot, Lloyd, because I have not studied these to any degree, bought them on a whim for my son's collection, and really have not looked at them since. One coin looks exactly as I remembered, and the other does not. I thought it had a rainbow crescent from 6' o'clock to 9 o'clock, but the "rainbow" looks a little browner and less of a rainbow than I remembered. I do not think comparative photography would help much because I think that one can use photography to prove whatever you want to prove. I guess I just bought an ugly-toned coin and did not realize it.
<< <i>Yes...
Like you say, with out rehashing the entire AT NT debate, I'll say this.
I was involved in the purchase of 2 BC Morgan Dollars that I believe sold for about $4000. About 6 months ago I saw them and thought, as did the owner, that the color had "faded". In fact to the point that they didn't look like $4K coins anymore. The owner decided to sell them at auction where he took a substantial loss. >>
Well, Thurston
In that case, perhaps I have not lost my mind after all.
I will say that it is possible that we idealize the appearance of our attractive coins in our mind, and perhaps when we got to look at them after not seeing them for a period of time, the coins are not as attractive as we thought.
with all that said, i don't really think living in a humid midwestern city is even a consideration. i live on the shores of beautiful Lake Erie and have never noticed any kind of change in blast white coins given no special attention, coins i've had for 10-30 years. also, it seems to me that the Battle Creek hoard, if genuine, should have reached a point in the bags where the coins either turned black or the toning process stopped because the contaminants had become inert. that tells me that if the color is changing now as you suspect that either the coins were AT(and contamination was still present at the time of encapsulation and has continued to tone the coins) or something that happened during the encapsulation contaminated the coins and they're reacting with that.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes...
Like you say, with out rehashing the entire AT NT debate, I'll say this.
I was involved in the purchase of 2 BC Morgan Dollars that I believe sold for about $4000. About 6 months ago I saw them and thought, as did the owner, that the color had "faded". In fact to the point that they didn't look like $4K coins anymore. The owner decided to sell them at auction where he took a substantial loss. >>
Well, Thurston
In that case, perhaps I have not lost my mind after all.
I will say that it is possible that we idealize the appearance of our attractive coins in our mind, and perhaps when we got to look at them after not seeing them for a period of time, the coins are not as attractive as we thought.
That point may be very valid.Many times when we originally view coins,inspect them,and all that good stuff at shows etc. we get back home and sometimes i have found personally many coins look nicer than i thought,and some not quite as nice.Personally i find the lighting in MY home to be the best venue to view any coin.Anyone else ever feel that way?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
What you see is what you get.
However, what you get is only
for a limited time?
Camelot
<< <i>I will say that it is possible that we idealize the appearance of our attractive coins in our mind, and perhaps when we got to look at them after not seeing them for a period of time, the coins are not as attractive as we thought.
I think we all have owned coins like this.
<< <i>I have no idea, but I suspect that none of our memories are quite as sharp as we'd like them to be. >>
Could someone please remind what the point of this thread is again?
<< <i>You should have had good pictures made.
I do have an original photo from the seller which is very good. Perhaps we should photograph this coin, under the same conditions, annually, and see if we can confirm any change.
<< <i>
<< <i>You should have had good pictures made.
I do have an original photo from the seller which is very good. Perhaps we should photograph this coin, under the same conditions, annually, and see if we can confirm any change. >>
Taking photos with the same conditions over time sounds like a good idea. It might not provide the most visually pleasing photo for the coin but will help with scenarios like this.
Whenever I receive a coin, I always scan it for my personal archives and always use the same settings with each scan.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Yes...
Like you say, with out rehashing the entire AT NT debate, I'll say this.
I was involved in the purchase of 2 BC Morgan Dollars that I believe sold for about $4000. About 6 months ago I saw them and thought, as did the owner, that the color had "faded". In fact to the point that they didn't look like $4K coins anymore. The owner decided to sell them at auction where he took a substantial loss. >>
nice to start--
I hope they do change.
–John Adams, 1826
–John Adams, 1826
-David
I've owned many sweet toned PCGS Morgans for at least a 10 year period, and they all look the same today as they did 10 years ago.
A standing yearly order sounds good too.
<< <i>I've held to the view that battle creek morgans were AT since the first time I saw a number of them in person. I have not owned any of them, nor do I intend to own any of them.
-David >>
I own a couple, one just average and one a monster. Both have shown some fading over time.
It's not a lot and they haven't changed colors or turned darker, but both have faded a few degrees in intensity.
Might be time to move them.
In comparison to a few other bag toned toners I've got slabbed, it's only them that are showing the fading.
Just my .02
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
to that end, why would noone question those who state plainly that their coins haven't changed?? isn't it just as likely that their mind is playing tricks on them and that their coins are changing?? it's probably best not to doubt each other unless some preconceived motive can be pinpointed. from my lofty perch it seems that some coins have changed while others have remained the same, not an unusual circumstance and certainly not sinister in nature. it does, however, raise the question of what may be causing a change.
let's not delude ourselves by suggesting that old age or other factors are causing us to hallucinate!!
Has nothing to do with the Battle Creeks specifically, but I can attest to changing intensity of toning.
Drunner
<< <i>
<< <i>I've held to the view that battle creek morgans were AT since the first time I saw a number of them in person. I have not owned any of them, nor do I intend to own any of them.
-David >>
I own a couple, one just average and one a monster. Both have shown some fading over time.
It's not a lot and they haven't changed colors or turned darker, but both have faded a few degrees in intensity.
Might be time to move them.
In comparison to a few other bag toned toners I've got slabbed, it's only them that are showing the fading.
Just my .02 >>
<< <i>In comparison to a few other bag toned toners I've got slabbed, it's only them that are showing the fading. >>
This thread is getting very interesting.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>One point not yet mentioned... Toning is progressive.. and will continue to blackness. Given the original contaminant that caused the toning is removed... the contaminated portion will still degrade. This likely will appear as fading since the 'active' state is diminishing. I certainly hope toner collectors do not think that the color is static - it is not!!! Cheers, RickO >>
Baloney. Natural toning placed in PCGS holders might change an iota in a century. Might.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>One point not yet mentioned... Toning is progressive.. and will continue to blackness. Given the original contaminant that caused the toning is removed... the contaminated portion will still degrade. This likely will appear as fading since the 'active' state is diminishing. I certainly hope toner collectors do not think that the color is static - it is not!!! Cheers, RickO >>
Baloney. Natural toning placed in PCGS holders might change an iota in a century. Might. >>
<< <i>Rick, i'm not certain that i agree with what you've said although i think i understand how you feel about these coins!!! >>
Brought this one back to life.
Well, just Love coins, period.
As deadhorse stated: "I own a couple, one just average and one a monster. Both have shown some fading over time. "
Isn't fading a reaction from exposure to light? Furhtermore, why would a toned coins color fade? Especially if it were in a slabbed environment. I mean, I could understand fading due to dust and dirt exposure from sitting on an open shelf but a slabs environment, given proper sealing, is relatively stable.
The name is LEE!
I bet your bottom dollar, crack those suckers out and they will come back to life. I say this because I have had some monster toners and they changed while in slabs, crackem out and they were more colorful. Hope this helps.
I Sh4t you not!! Quoted byTom Berenger in that ARMY movie with Charile Sheen.
<< <i>Furhtermore, why would a toned coins color fade? >>
If the toning is unstable, the intensity diminishes as it dissipates.
Russ, NCNE
I agree 100%. Original toned coins with color must have a layer of patina or "skin". This is silver oxide and is the "best" thing for a coin to have to protect the silver surface from further oxidation. Once that patina is removed, the surfaces can begin to tone again possibly changing the original colors. If the silver coin is removed from the oxidation environment, such as sulfur paper kraft envelopes, then the toning will stop or at least be minimal. However, placing the coin in another environment may alter the surfaces, such as a PVC flip in humid conditions.
TRUTH
<< <i>Interesting indeed!
As deadhorse stated: "I own a couple, one just average and one a monster. Both have shown some fading over time. "
Isn't fading a reaction from exposure to light? Furhtermore, why would a toned coins color fade? Especially if it were in a slabbed environment. I mean, I could understand fading due to dust and dirt exposure from sitting on an open shelf but a slabs environment, given proper sealing, is relatively stable. >>
These coins in particular have either been in a safe deposit box or stashed away in a PCGS blue box in a hidey hole in my home. They haven't seen any sunlight since I purchased them. They are sitting with other toned Morgans in the blue box and have been since day one.
So...... exposure to dust, dirt or sunlight can't be a factor here. Understand, they haven't faded away by any means and are still very, very nice, it's just that they seem to have lost a few degrees of intensity. The same can't said for their counterparts stored likewise.
When I saw the original post, I realized that it wasn't just me who has noticed this. whether it will continue remains to be seen but I think it might be time to move them at the next big show or consign them to eBay. We'll see. I'm not losing any sleep over it as they are still strong toners and do have the BC pedigree on the slab.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>
<< <i>Furhtermore, why would a toned coins color fade? >>
If the toning is unstable, the intensity diminishes as it dissipates.
Russ, NCNE >>
Or the toning decomposes while molecules are on the surface to yield less colored products. Dissipation can also be construed to mean desorption from the surface---silver surfaces with oxo-, chloro-, or inorganic sulfide ligands retain these bonds. For something on the surface to passively 'dissipate,' it would have to vaporize off--this suggests organic matter. Hence my earlier post about acetone treatment (or perhaps the use of another solvent, like petroleum ether).
What is not widely appreciated is the sophistication with which molecules can now be put down on surfaces---during the last 15 years or so, a variety of procedures and commercial instruments have been developed to pattern molecules on surfaces for biomedical applications (clinical chemistry assays). This includes putting down compounds in patterns that look deceptively like bag toning (the cross-hatched kind) or rainbow toning. More recent developments focus on the use of ink-jet printers to do this. There are also ways to pattern molecules on surfaces using gases and masking parts of the surfaces during individual steps. I think that more attention needs to focus on the shades of the colors we're seeing on these controversial coins, and whether the colors are stable.
For the record, I collect Morgan dollars, but have refused to buy one of the Battle Creek Morgans. And I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry, and have spent roughly 30 years doing assay development work that uses coated metal/glass/plastic surfaces.
" will say that it is possible that we idealize the appearance of our attractive coins in our mind, and perhaps when we got to look at them after not seeing them for a period of time, the coins are not as attractive as we thought".....
....yeah....that's it!
Natural toning acquired over very long periods of time in relatively undisturbed storage tends to be quite stable, once the coin is removed from the original environment. Generally, the original environment had to be reactive for the toning to occur; for example, the sulfur in Mint burlap creates a reaction potential, albeit at a low rate that took many years to result in rainbow toning. Once the coin is removed to a less reactive environment (out of the Mint bag and into a slab, for example) the toning is generally quite stable. No, it is not sensitive to light, nor do the molecules dissipate, or other such nonsense. And yes, theoretically, if the reactive agents are strong enough and left for an unlimited amount of time, the toning will eventually become black. But that is irrelevant to the scenario of the BC coins.
The specific and unique form of banded rainbow toning found on select Morgans after decades of storage is particularly stable, in my experience.
I think the only thing that has likely faded are the memories of the observer. The coins themselves have not changed, barring exceptional anvironmental circumstances. Of course, if people got hooked on over-saturated neon fluorescent images of the coins, then they might be surprised later on to look at the actual coins at a later date. Sometimes, the images can be a bit fanciful.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>As usual, this subject immediately brings upon us dissertations and conjectures that are blatant nonsense and factually false. >>
So those who actually own examples, and have posted that the intensity of the color has diminished over time, are full of crap?
Russ, NCNE