On the topic of Coast to Coast Coins, Paul Sims, Coin Depot...

nutz4coinz · February 2, 2008 10:47AM

Why has there been such an influx of questions involving the purchase of coins from these (and I use the term VERY loosely) dealers ads in the hobby publications? Granted, the ads make it possible for us to have them to read, but on the other hand, is it worth it to KNOW that someone, somewhere is getting taken to the cleaners? In one week (even though at least one was resurrected), 3 of CoinWorlds/Numismatic News's have been called to the carpet (and I am sure these 3 dealers....Coin Depot, Paul Sims, Coast to Coast Coins) are MAJOR players in CW/NN's revenue. Do you think if any of these threads/posts were sent to the 'Letters to the Editor' dept that they would actually be printed? Doubtful. How about some of the contributing writers to these publications, such as D.Q. Bowers, or Michael Fahey feel about these guys (certainly, the reputation MUST preceed them). Should we, as a collective unit, invite these publications to help us with some sort of 'sting'? CW and NN are here for our interest/love of our hobby...do you think if it were laid out on the table they would be able to totally ignore the problem? If I were an editor, publisher, whatever, and KNEW some of my advertisers were duping MY readers, people buying my publication, I would be outraged. So, I guess I have a poll to go along with this...

koynekwest · February 2, 2008 11:54AM

"CW and NN are here for our interest/love of our hobby."

No-they are here to make a buck. They've been carrying ads from these crooks for years. I don't think they are going to relinquish the revenue from the multi-page ads these guys put in these publications just because many uniformed buyers are constantly getting ripped.

SilverEagles92 · February 2, 2008 11:56AM

I let my CoinWorld subscription lapse last year due to the fact that there are so many ads and very little numismatic literature value. Would I pay more if there were less ads? No, but I might resubscribe.

MidLifeCrisis · February 2, 2008 12:03PM

<< I let my CoinWorld subscription lapse last year due to the fact that there are so many ads and very little numismatic literature value. Would I pay more if there were less ads? No, but I might resubscribe. >>

I would be willing to pay more if the advertising space lost was replaced with more educational and entertaining numismatic articles....change the focus of either CW or NN to a periodical about coins and numismatics rather than one predominantly about coin dealer ads.

BillJones · February 2, 2008 12:06PM

"Coin World" should keep its own house in order. It's not my responsibility to fix it.

ahooka454 · February 2, 2008 12:16PM

I voted yes. I would pay a few more bucks to get more real information and articles in it.but

Longacre · February 2, 2008 12:26PM

I simply do not buy from the shady dealers. Let them advertise all they want.

ozzyfan269 · February 2, 2008 12:35PM

Is this a sign that more newbies are coming into the hobby?

seatedcollector · February 2, 2008 5:50PM

i take exception to anyone censoring what i should and should not read, buy, study, look at or even think about i like my options just the way they are, i like the OPTION of not even reading CW or NN or reading it every day and ordering as much "crap" as i want to

ArizonaJack · February 2, 2008 7:11PM

grading is subjective......CW and NN has a stated policy in the back somewhere, but nobody pays any attention to it I'm sure. Thats like if we said" Do you think Ebay would lose the powerscrwers and raise fees if we proved to them there were people getting ripped?"

PerryHall · February 2, 2008 7:59PM

Coin World is not for everyone.

walkerman · February 2, 2008 9:12PM

<< Coin World is not for everyone. >>

All newbies and even some oldies who are constantly looking for numismatic "bargains" are the fodder that feeds these unscrupulous so called dealers.
These telemarketing scam artists have become wealthy exploiting the uninformed collectors obsession with price, price, price.
I've lost count of the number of "buyers" who have told me both at shows and by email that they never pay more than greysheet bid for any coin no matter how much the dealer explains the superior quality for the grade.
Then they proudly show off the "bargains" they acquired from dealers like the above gang of four.(or more). ugggh!
Meanwhile the real bargains are being snapped up by advanced collectors who long ago realized the real bargains are premium quality coins that require a premium price to acquire. Dave W

David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com

PerryHall · February 2, 2008 9:52PM

<< Coin World is not for everyone. >>

I was paraphrasing what Meg Whitman said about eBay in response to complaints about all the problems with eBay.

BlindedByEgo · February 2, 2008 9:52PM

Do YOU buy the weight-loss products advertised in tabloids like the Star, the Sun or the Enquirer?

Do other people?

Yet I like to pick up the aformentioned rags every so often, if only to have a laugh. Some people really DO believe that Tom Cruise is an alien.

Don't they?

PerryHall · February 2, 2008 10:06PM

<< Do YOU buy the weight-loss products advertised in tabloids like the Star, the Sun or the Enquirer? >>

I don't read these rags and I wouldn't put Coin World in the same category as these rags.

ksteelheader · February 2, 2008 10:08PM

<< I simply do not buy from the shady dealers. Let them advertise all they want. >>

Exactly. Why worry about stuff you can't change?

CoinHusker · February 2, 2008 10:39PM

<< I simply do not buy from the shady dealers. Let them advertise all they want. >>

Just because a bird flies over your head doesn't mean you have to let it build a nest in your hair.

nutz4coinz · February 2, 2008 11:19PM

Ozzyfan....I dont know if its a matter of more newbies coming into the hobby (but would that be a bad thing?). The thread for Coast to Coast was begun in '03, and resurrected a week or so ago by a respected member, Paul Sims was resurrected, and Coin Depot was new. The posters who started the threads had 600 or more posts (I know that means jack, but wouldnt you say people lurk for awhile before posting? These posters had to know something was wrong with them, but...on one hand, yeah, hopefully more newbies ARE coming into the hobby......other hand, these guys do offer some stuff that IS desirable, its just that its desirable crapola that someone wanting to build a classy set would steer clear from. However, if its something that doesnt come up very often, and someone needs that piece, then its a crap shoot at best.

BillJones...do you subscribe to any of those publications? If so, its also YOUR house, in a way....IF you do, you are the one paying for it....and thats where I am coming from, I buy it and have just about gotten tired as all get out of all the ads from guys who are selling coins they know have at BEST a 60/40 chance of being sent back. But be very aware that I do NOT condone the use of these guys. I would just like to see a numismatic publication, a weekly, that doesnt contain over 50% of ads from shysters...something with more topics about NUMISMATICS.

Look at the new column CoinWorld runs...'Coin Clatter'....I respect that its a woman numismatist (which we are running very low on), but its written for a 'Readers Digest' or 'Family Circle' type of magazine. Quite honestly, if there were a publication that didnt run the plethora of ads that CW and NN run, and keep the ads to a minimum in the main reading part of the mag, and keep them in the back, and h ave more numismatic 'meat' to 'sink your teeth into', then I think that would be a winner. Take Sports Illustrated, Time.....sure, there are ads in the main reading areas of the mags, but its very tolerable-you dont get smashed in the face with another page of ads every time you turn a page...not like CW/NN where they just hammer you with ads for 4 pages at a time, then you get an article on how a counterfeit copy of a 1943 Walker crossed the table at ANACS, then 4 more pages of ads...etc.....its a bit much, and perhaps time for one of two things to happen: CW/NN crapping or getting off the crapper in regard to realizing their publication is gear towards giving information and a sounding board for the collector, and present a publication as such, instead of just page after page of advertisements....OR perhaps its time for a new player in the game...solicit ad space from the well respected dealers (the Coin Rarities Online, Rare Coin Wholesalers, Anacondas and JJ Teaparty's of the hobby) and have more INFORMATIVE articles, and for GOD's sake, let the letters to the editor section talk about real topics, instead of 'Wah Wah The mint stinks Wah Wah'.

In the Feb 11th copy of CoinWorld......the first 43 pages contained this:

1 page for contents, 2 pages for 'editoral, letters to the editor, coin clatter', 1 full page ad for ICG, 1 page with nothing but an article. Thats 5 pages total with no add space......of 43......

Of the other 38 pages:
1 half page for Q.D. Bowers 'Joys of Collecting'(which I enjoy reading)
5 articles that began and continued/ended in those first 43 pages (articles that could have been all on one page)
1 page with fixed price/mail order bids
1 page with 'announcements' (and that was only 1/3 of the page, the rest was ad space)
35 pages with some sort of ad on them, if not full page ads

In short, there was a total of ONE page that had no ad space on it at all...just ONE....and 35 of those first 43 had some type (most all those pages were at leas 1/4-1/2 page ads) of ad on them. Over 81% of those first 43 pages had some sort of ad content on them,,,,,over 81%!!!!!

Numismatic News is the same, for all intents and purposes. Can you find another publication, in ANY hobby, or just any magazine period, that has that much ad space?

MrEureka · February 2, 2008 11:29PM

If CW and NN were to adopt a policy whereby dealers that overgrade their coins were not allowed to advertise, how exactly could that be implemented?

newsman · February 2, 2008 11:46PM

<< If CW and NN were to adopt a policy whereby dealers that overgrade their coins were not allowed to advertise, how exactly could that be implemented? >>

First of all, they can reject ads that contain false statements. Dealers who take coins that have wear, doctor them to make them appear lustrous and represent them as BU in their ads are making false statements. There is a line -- recognized by federal regulators -- when subjectivity in grading crosses into fraud.

Secondly, as private businesses, the papers have a right to enforce their own interpretation of industry grading standards, regardless of how the advertisers' standards differ. In fact, both do define what is acceptable to some extent in their ad policies. Some posters here have noted that those stated policies should be more tightly enforced, and this is something the papers also surely have a right to do. The OP actually made a constructive suggestion as to how this could be done without affecting the papers' bottom line.

tincup · February 3, 2008 12:03AM

I myself have no problem with Coin World or Numismatic News (other than late copies at times). They are... what they are. The big advertisers keep the subscription rates to a reasonable level. With the annoying aspects of each publication.... there are many excellent articles that I enjoy.

To implement some sort of 'ban' for some types of advertisers would be very problematic for the publishers.

Even though we more seasoned in the numismatic arena have no use for the full page ads.... they most likely do fill a niche in the market, whether we like it or not. There are individuals entering the market out there that have no other acccess to obtaining coins. Yes, they get taken advantage of by some of the large page advertisers, but.... they do get exposure to the hobby, and they get experience and education along with it. Most of us went through a 'learning curve' also. Hopefully, most of the newbies learn quickly where the better options are for the coins they desire.

If any individual does not like the way Coin World or NN conduct the publishing content, etc... one can always "vote" by either subscribing or not subscribing. If enough vote no, eventually the publishers will modify content, etc., in whatever way they feel they must to remain viable in the business.

newsman · February 3, 2008 12:23AM

<< To implement some sort of 'ban' for some types of advertisers would be very problematic for the publishers. >>

It may be problematic in an economic sense, but they have every right to refuse any ads they don't want for any reason. Lots of daily newspapers refuse to take ads from gun dealers for reasons most would consider ideological or political.

ChangeInHistory · February 3, 2008 12:31AM

It's almost a right of passage for coin collectors to buy from one of these big companies, figure out they got jobed, and avoid them in the future. We can speak volumes to companies like CD, Paul Sims, Ken Pines, etc. when we DON'T spend any money with them. The $ is louder than anything.

MrEureka · February 3, 2008 12:33AM

First of all, they can reject ads that contain false statements. Dealers who take coins that have wear, doctor them to make them appear lustrous and represent them as BU in their ads are making false statements.

How would CW and NN know if there are false statements without vetting the material in advance? And who on their staffs is capable of doing this work?

newsman · February 3, 2008 12:52AM

<< First of all, they can reject ads that contain false statements. Dealers who take coins that have wear, doctor them to make them appear lustrous and represent them as BU in their ads are making false statements.

How would CW and NN know if there are false statements without vetting the material in advance? And who on their staffs is capable of doing this work? >>

They can reject the ads on the belief the statements are false. They don't need proof. However, it would be more likely they would do so if they received credible complaints or proof false statements are being made in the ads from consumers.

That's the real issue here. Some people have suggested certain dealers are buying coins they know to be AU or problem coins, doctoring them and selling them as BU. If true, this is primarily a matter for the authorities, not for the coin publications, because it can be actionable as fraud. And the only certain way to stop what people here are complaining about is for those who have the evidence to step up and tell their stories.

PerryHall · February 3, 2008 1:08AM

<< It's almost a right of passage for coin collectors to buy from one of these big companies, figure out they got jobed, and avoid them in the future. We can speak volumes to companies like CD, Paul Sims, Ken Pines, etc. when we DON'T spend any money with them. The $ is louder than anything. >>

Problem is that a lot of new collectors (many of whom are CW subscribers) will leave the hobby for good once they figure out "they got jobbed".

MidLifeCrisis · February 3, 2008 1:10AM

<< If CW and NN were to adopt a policy whereby dealers that overgrade their coins were not allowed to advertise, how exactly could that be implemented? >>

First, CW and NN should require all dealers to use the numeric 70 point grading scale that is the hobby standard instead of descriptions such as "Premium Quality Brilliant Uncirculated", "Select Brilliant Uncirculated", or even old standards such as "Brilliant Uncirculated" or "Gem Brilliant Uncirculated". I know that many dealers prefer to use these adjectival descriptions...but without any up-front explanation as to what numeric grade they represent, these descriptions are too ambiguous and can be misleading.

Second - as newsman alluded to - it's all about customer satisfaction and the number of complaints CW or NN gets about these dealers. Sure, the customer has to step up and file a complaint, but then CW and NN should have a policy in place to ban a particular advertiser after a certain number of complaints have been filed. Smart dealers know that their reputation in the hobby is their most important asset and they will do what it takes to maintain a good reputation with their customers.

WinPitcher · February 3, 2008 1:15AM

As long as these slime have a return policy the publications will gladly take the advertisement money from them.

Buyers should be more responcible. Once they get the coin from Ken Pines(or dealers like him) they can have it checked out by someone who knows. Also, with all the info one has available to themtoday, they could also seek out info regarding these companys. What happens in many cases is they see a coin being advertised as BU for say 50.00 and the same coin being advertised from someone reputable for 150.00 and think they are getting the deal of a lifetime. Sometimes it is their own greed that comes back to bite them in the butt.

We have all been there and done that.

Steve

shorecoll · February 3, 2008 1:24AM

This issue goes back to the beginning of the hobby, at least to Max Mehl, and likely further. If you chased them out of CW/NN they would join their peers on eBay. Now start naming those, cause they're certainly there, with big PowerScrewer ratings and high satisfaction scores. This tells you they do serve a need, you can fool most of the people most of the time, and the the eBay scoring system is about as accurate (corrupt) as the grading of the above named dealers. Whew, soapbox time.

Bobk · February 3, 2008 1:44AM

What Longacre said.

nutz4coinz · February 3, 2008 1:50AM

Perryhall.....at one time or another, we have all been 'jobbed'. Like Changeinhistory said, its like a right of passage. Getting jobbed by these guys is a lesson we learn early. Then we come here, learn more, take that knowledge, become more informed collectors, and go from there. Its like freshman rush in college, rushing for a fraternity.....some collectors say 'thank you sir, may i have another', some say 'no thanx, you crook, i want a refund on these problematic coins'. The ones that say 'may i have another', are the same ones the buy from ShopAtHome, QVC, etc.....eventually everyone learns. The more one delves into the hobby, the more informed they become, the more they learn about bottom feeders like the dealers we are speaking about, the more they understand that BU is supposed to mean 'Brilliant Uncirculated', but to Coast to Coast, or Paul Sims, it means 'Brilliantly Ugly', or perhaps it means 'Buy Uninformed'. Everyone has taken a bath to slugs like these guys, but we all learn, and more times than not, its a lesson that is worth learning. I know my dealings with them, though it only cost me postage, and some time, and aggravation, taught me a very valuable lesson. Show of hands...how many HAVENT learned a lesson by being taken in this hobby....albeit early on in your undertaking of the hobby, but still, show of hands, how many HAVENT been taken, by slugs like these, at least once????? I for one, am raising mine, and I am not embarassed by it one bit......

newsman · February 3, 2008 2:00AM

Yes, we've all been there, we've all learned and many of the thousands of PCGS message board members will never buy from those guys. And yet they still do enough business to afford those double-page ads every week, which aren't free, so somebody must be buying from them and giving them a profit margin high enough to remain as big players in the coin business. It's just like with the coin doctors -- everyone knows it's going on, but nobody will do anything to stop it, even if they have the power to do so.

hrlaser · February 3, 2008 2:12AM

i've been writing tech reviews for magazines for twenty three years.. so i know a thing or two about how mass-market magazines work.. for the uninitiated, the VAST majority of income ANY magazine (that accepts advertising) makes comes from that advertising. Barely 10% or even 5% of their revenue comes from subscriptions and newsstand sales.. take away the advertising and not only would their costs increase tremendously as they tried to fill the same number of pages with Editorial content, columns, and so on, but the cover price would skyrocket..

i get three coin magazines - CW, NN, and the ANA's The Numismatist.. the latter, although it is a monthly, not a weekly like the other two, BY FAR, has the highest quality Editorial content and in-depth articles, although (and i haven't done a page count so i can't tell you exactly what the percentage is between ads and non-ad pages) being a "club" publication (you have to be an ANA member to get it).. it's printed on much higher-quality, glossy stock, and many pages each issue are devoted to ANA-doings.. but you'll see almost NONE of the same kinds of ads you'll see in the other two.. instead, you see ads from the big money dealers, selling almost exclusively slabbed coins in the four to six figure range, catering to the well-monied collector / investor.. plus a LOT of auction house ads with color photos of similarly hyper-expensive coins.. and page after page of the "i'll travel to YOU and buy your entire collection" kind of ads.. anyone who's been around a while knows the names of those guys..

however, the Numismatist, being a monthly, has a much longer lead-time than the weeklies do.. you're not going to get any hot news from it (as in what The Mint decided to do this past week).. in fact, even the weeklies' lead-times make their news almost stale compared to Web-based sites like Numismaster.com, where the Mint can do something one day and a blurb about what they did can appear on the Web site that same day, or the next..

for twenty years i've subscribed to a magazine for fans of "vintage" Disneyland stuff, called The "E" Ticket (http://www.the-e-ticket.com).. it started out as a quarterly, $4.00 stapled fanzine with a print run of only a few hundred copies, but has matured into a $7.50 quarter, glossy publication.. but it carries NO advertising at all, except a page or two of self-advertising for back issues.. but that's it.. otherwise, it's 100% original Editorial content.. however, like i said, $7.50 an issue.. four times a year.. imagine what that magazine would cost if it published the same kind of content but was a weekly.. although i' sure there are enough rabid, foaming Disneyana collectors and history buffs who might pay $400.00 a year for a subscription.. there certainly wouldn't be thousands..

anyway, you have to be not only edjamakated about coins when you plow through the latest issue of CW or NN and those huge multi-page ads from the likes of C-to-C and Skyline, and the Coin Depot, and Paul Sims and others of that ilk jump out at you.. you're probaby safe buying original Mint-packaged stuff from them, but as far as expensive raw coins advertised as "hurry up one only" with four and five figure price tags?.. caveat emptor..

these huge ads are CW's bread and butter.. the magazine would be small enough to blow your nose in and throw away if you removed the ads from it.. ads are what keep the cover price (relatively) low, and pay the staffs' salaries.. so rankling their long-time advertisers no matter how many readers complained about getting over-graded, whizzed, cleaned material from those guys by refusing to run those ads, or making them conform to some realisitic grading standard, instead of just using made-up superlatives like "choice Brilliant Uncirculated" is goes against the publications' best interests..

like someone else mentioned, the magazines, ANY magazines (which accept advertising).. exist to make money, not as a public service..

personally, speaking only for myself, i think CW's overall quality went downhill a couple months ago when they switched to their new, smaller format.. i LIKED the decades-old Newsprint version, especially when it had the Trends section printed on yellow stock, in the middle pages, before they took that out and created the separate, monthly "Coin Values" glossy magazine out of it a few years ago.. although the separate Coin Values rag has a few things going for it too.. BUT still, it usually duplicates a lot of the advertising from the same jokers whose huge ads fill the weekly CW..

lope208 · February 3, 2008 2:23AM

I see it like Natural Selection, survival of the fittest. The same goes for every aspect of life. And personally, when it comes to any hobby of mine, I like to research and read as much as I can before making decisions, etc.

That's exactly why these boards are a great place. Sure, not everyone that collects coins will read them, but isn't that what separates us from the rest? We are using/finding every advantage to be smarter within our own hobby.

If some newbie picks up an issue of NN or CW and just orders from these guys assuming they're legit because they can advertise, well...that just goes against everything I know about common sense and the advertising world.

I thought about ordering a few times from these guys and luckily I found the threads on here first. Believe it or not, I did a google search on Coast to Coast Coins, because I was looking for their website, and the top result was the 2003 thread "Is Coast to Coast legit?" This forum is a great service.

And I agree, let us make our decisions on who we want to buy from. Most of the coins that got me into the hobby at 12 or 13 yrs old were from Littleton...I know, it's a whole 'nother thread. But the point is, I learned a lot from their catalogs and couldn't read them enough when I was younger. I know better than to pay their inflated prices now, but it's the learning curve that makes anything worthwhile I suppose. We learn from experience.

Feel like I'm rambling now, but just my two cents.

09sVDB · February 3, 2008 2:25AM

I would pay more. Many years ago I bought from one of these dealers. Returned the same coins twice and posted here about the experience. Called NN and all they were interested in was the ad revenue.

newsman · February 3, 2008 2:33AM

Daily newspapers also depend on advertising for about 75 percent of their revenue. But they also depend on their credibility, and there are numerous examples of how that affects advertising decisions.

Many newspapers are struggling with the question of whether to keep accepting what are known as "hooker ads" -- ads for massage parlours or escort services that appear to be legal but sometimes are fronts for prostitution. It hurts a newspaper's credibility when there's a story on page 1 about the cops busting an escort service for prostitution and five pages inside there's an ad for the same service. And, as I mentioned before, many newspapers which take editorial stands in favor of gun control have stopped taking ads from gun dealers, because they value credibility higher than the revenue they get from the ads.

7Jaguars · February 3, 2008 2:42AM

Caveat emptor - buyer beware. Actually these folks are the most obvious but there are some other
"established and respectable" dealers that have been rip-offs as well, we will not go there with the dearly departed -- (name reminds you of Chevrolet, but is a competitor) or the past PNG pres. & member who was suspended and then reinstated that continues to pull stuff, or another famed (and current) auction house in New York whose name reminds you of a pile of magazines...

Point is as has been said, these folks have a forum to reach many usnsuspecting buyers and continue unabated - I guess all we can do is warn people. Well, enough griping. I kind of miss Coin Vault as it is either off the air or not reachable by the Verizon cable bundle I now have - like to see the big pictures and the cheerleading was fun; just feel sorry for the saps being taken in.

Barry · February 3, 2008 3:38AM

<< If CW and NN were to adopt a policy whereby dealers that overgrade their coins were not allowed to advertise, how exactly could that be implemented? >>

Based on reader complaints, significantly above the norm.

jfoot13 · February 3, 2008 4:04AM

<< grading is subjective......CW and NN has a stated policy in the back somewhere, but nobody pays any attention to it I'm sure. Thats like if we said" Do you think Ebay would lose the powerscrwers and raise fees if we proved to them there were people getting ripped?" >>

I agree and also would like to add... these publications are a tool to be used just like any other information.. gray sheet ( lots of advertisers there and I have heard the same complaints ) all the online guides... geeze I even see advertising banners above our forum.. If your a dealer of any size and with some time in the trenches somebody somewere feels you gave them the shaft ( real or imagined, intentional or accident )

Also it's human nature to look for bargains ... ever been to a dollar store for a particuliar item and walked out with a shopping cart of dollar junk... is it the stores fault for advertising it ? I see a YOU SUCK award here on the forum everybody looks for... I don't see a "What were you thinking" award for the shall we say lapse in judgement purchases ( I'm sure there are some interesting stories on that subject )

We all have our own standards and it's up to us to be true to them..

OK I'm done venting

percyb · February 3, 2008 5:21AM

<< How about some of the contributing writers to these publications, such as D.Q. Bowers, or Michael Fahey feel about these guys (certainly, the reputation MUST preceed them). Should we, as a collective unit, invite these publications to help us with some sort of 'sting'? CW and NN are here for our interest/love of our hobby...do you think if it were laid out on the table they would be able to totally ignore the problem? If I were an editor, publisher, whatever, and KNEW some of my advertisers were duping MY readers, people buying my publication, I would be outraged. So, I guess I have a poll to go along with this... >>

I happen to concur with you on this issue. The editors and writers should know about the way these dealers dupe the readers of the magazines by selling shoddy coins that are over dipped and whizzed. I think contacting Bowers and Fahey and others is a great idea!

mcgrover · February 3, 2008 6:19AM

Allow me the opportunity to throw this joker in the deck: John Paul Sarosi ( while I'm working on the link) JPS

nutz4coinz · February 3, 2008 6:37AM

mcgrover......I wholeheartedly agree with you there. MOST of the advertisers in those publications are, are you say, jokers.....remember, I said MOST...I DID give it up for those that are decent, respectable dealers....and you know whats funny? Its the good guys that have the smallest ads...

WinPitcher · February 3, 2008 6:40AM

As long as those guys allow for returns the papers have no problem taking their ad dollars.

it is basically the hand that feeds the mouth for them.

Steve

nutz4coinz · February 3, 2008 1:18PM

Damn, now that Sarosi is added to the list (and its getting to be a mighty big list), and Littleton, I want to bring the poll back TTT . With the list of dealers we have made, just in one day, that pull advertising in those hobby publications, something might just start happening...what it could be, is anyones guess, but the masses have been speaking, and perhaps the masses will start to be heard....who knows....but wanted to bring this back for more possible opinions and poll choices. It seems to be getting deep and muddy for these 'dealers' that peddle crapola....

DennisH · February 3, 2008 1:37PM

I stopped subscribing to Coin World specifically because of its continued publication of ads from the firms that have been discussed here, and hopefully one day they'll stop sending me their pathetic "we want you back" renewal offers. Every publication has a responsibility to provide its readers with a product that is honest, truthful and free of lies and deceit. That includes advertising. To do anything less is simply a matter of whoreing.

By the way, I have been a magazine editor for over 30 years.

nutz4coinz · February 3, 2008 3:06PM

DennisH......you are a magazine editor? Certainly you must have a better idea on the possiblity of knocking on CW, NN's door and saying some of their advertisers arent playing fair, not playing by the rules.....We could all but guarantee 10 coins bought from any of these advertisers would not grade what they claim, by using the the grading standard they HAVE to say they use (Photograde, The ANA Standard for Grading US Coins, etc...most say one of thier standards is 'interpretation of market standards'...what the hell does that really mean???). Is a 'mutiny' a possibility? Or, should the forum start one of our own?????

DennisH · February 3, 2008 11:11PM

nutz4coinz:

Don't think for one fraction of a second that any trade publication doesn't know exactly how their advertisers do business. You can't be a trade publication in any industry for very long without learning who the players are and how they operate – and these are the two biggest and oldest titles in numismatics.

The sad reality is, as I alluded to in my post above, that every publication in every industry has to decide where it stands on the issue of ethics and conduct, and are they going to just talk about them or actually back them up with action. They also have to decide who they are in business to serve: The readers or the advertisers, because you really and truly can't do both. Sales (either by you to advertisers, or by advertisers to your readers) eventually force you to make a choice.

Unfortunately, very few publications have the luxury (meaning high profit margin and/or low debt load) to set an ethics standard, let alone an inflexible one. Even fewer have the balls to say goodbye to advertisers whose ethics standards and business practices differ appreciably from the publication's. It's all about survival in the face of constantly declining readership and constantly increasing costs of production. Paper and postage, for instance, seem to go up as relentlessly as health insurance rates do.

My guess is that the companies discussed in this thread are extremely good about paying their advertising bills on time, so they never give the publication a financial reason to be unhappy with them. I'm semi-certain that without them the publications would suffer at least a crippling, but more likely a fatal, blow to their existence. Please be aware that income generated from subscriptions does essentially nothing to keep a publication – just about any publication – in business. Actually, it is a token amount that, at best, pays for the postage bill to mail each issue. Reality bites, but the fact is that meeting payroll, paying rent, and generating a profit for the owners depends pretty much exclusively upon advertising sales.

Every person who has participated in this thread could saddle up their biggest white horse of principal, ride up to the offices of CW and NN, and trumpet their case. The Editors would no doubt be impressed and sympathetic as they listened. And at the end of the day if we bought them beers and got them to talk candidly off the record, I would expect them to totally agree with us. But the official corporate response would pretty much fall along the lines of "It isn't our responsibility to police advertisers' business practices" and "All of our advertisers are required to have a clearly stated and fair return policy." At some point they'll also say something to the effect of, "Coin grading is subjective" and "All coin buyers have a responsibility to learn how to grade for themselves."

Readers can mutiny all they want – it sounds righteous and sexy, doesn't it? – but as long as advertisers keep buying ads, a publication is going to keep publishing. Period. And the publications will still have our addresses, so we'll keep getting those "we want you back" solicitations to subscribe again.

yellowjacket · February 4, 2008 5:36AM

If I'm not mistaken, Coast to Coast had an ad in the RED BOOK! Don't look for these companies to disappear just because you don't like what they sell!

Garrow

fc · February 4, 2008 5:41AM

i do not understand why these magazines simply phase out dead trees
and go online via a webpage or pdf download.

you cut your costs in a big way and can survive with fewer shady ads.

the amount of people without internet is shrinking to a lower level everyday.

are any of these publications online for free or a small fee?
i really cannot remember but i have read some good stuff that people link to
here on this forum.

PerryHall · February 4, 2008 6:17AM

On the topic of Coast to Coast Coins, Paul Sims, Coin Depot...

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