<< <i>There is only one other advertiser in NN and CW that I have bought raw from, and, guess what? Same thing....I wont divulge the name, but the initials are P.S., and they are located just a bit south of Coast to Coast. >>
I was wondering when someone was going to mention this other fine purveyor of crappy coins.
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>What I believe would be helpful to many collectors is an editorial or article in Coin World discussing these issues of predatory coin sales from firms like C to C and PS. >>
I won't hold my breath waiting for the editorial side of the magazine to bash its advertisers.
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Members are bringing back memories I thught I had forgotten.
C2C.....bought some coins from them, as I remember all where dipped. I returned the copper as the color was obviously off. I kept the silver as I did not care if they were 'white'. I was fairly new & collecting for Danscos at the time.
<< <i>First Joel Rettlew, now Coast to Coast..... >>
Someone started a thread concerning a coin for sale by Coin Depot. This must be scumbag dealer day on the boards.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I won't hold my breath waiting for the editorial side of the magazine to bash its advertisers. >>
Pines got booted from the ANA about the same time Gillio was being investigates for something (I forget what now.) They covered the Gillio story in detail, but nary a word about Pines.
I wrote a letter to the ed asking why this equally important news story (actually, more important as action was taken against Pines and Gillio was cleared) wasn't covered. Needless to say there was no response, nor was it printed in CW.
The numismatic media seems unable or unwilling to police the hobby. And the mainstream media aren't going to care about a story they see as affecting only a small group of people, especially if there is no obvious public interest.
I would suggest that those of us who are aware of what they believe are deceptive or fraudulent business practices contact these folks with the facts of their cases. If enough people do so, perhaps some action will follow.
This is what the Federal Trade Commission has to say, just before they invite people to file complaints:
Usually, the value of a rare coin is determined by its grade and rarity, so it is very important that the rare coins you buy are graded correctly. The grade of a rare coin is a shorthand method of describing its condition. Because grading includes such factors as "overall appearance" and "eye appeal," it necessarily involves some degree of subjectivity. As a result, the grade assigned to a particular coin may vary even among legitimate dealers, especially in the higher, investment- quality grades where distinctions in condition are more subtle. Because the fine distinctions between grades often mean large differences in the value or price of a coin, the subjectivity in grading means that there is some inherent risk in coin investing. Fraudulent sellers, however, often intentionally inflate the grades of the coins they sell, charging prices many times the coins' actual value. For example, you might pay $450 for an 1882-S Morgan dollar, that was described to you as having a high grade because of its excellent condition. Later, however, you may find that the accurate grade for the coin is two or more grades lower, and that the coin is actually worth only $50. Prior to the advent of independant certification services, false grading was the most common form of rare coin fraud.
<< <i>I have met some of their employees here and actually the
impression I get is that CC DOES NOT whizz stuff. Instead they by other dealers problems at
huge discounts and then mix in really common coins (think 1922-23-24 MS63 Peace Dollars) from
wholesaled rolls, and place large orders from bid outfits for AU55-58's. All their stuff is then dipped
twice--first with a tough agent that strips everything, then a version of MS70 to give that
super oil-like, vasoline shine so prized by newbees! >>
-----Two posts have just pointed out this is State fraud in Maryland---certainly the intent to decieve is there I agree.
As I pointed out above, they really aren't deceptively doctoring coins, just dipping etc.
that both NGC, PCGS,etal. agree is not really altering with the intent to decieve.
The question then is does a dealer have the obligation to say a coin is whizzed at one extreem to sightly
hairlined from a light brush with baking soda at the lesser damage extreem??
They should know that the steeply discounted coins they buy from dealers have problems.
Then the legal problem is to get employee--buyer type personnel to testify that they do know. Obviously Mr. Pines is so rich, he doesn't evaluate material--only set policy.
As for sliders being called BU, and "premium", and other oddball grade terms. You run into
the problem of "all grading is subjective" and CC has it's own system and terms for grading, and other BS.
Ultimately a criminal case agaist the corporation may be the best route in my uniformed, non lawyer OPINION.
A civil action in my opinion would only get your money back plus costs, and they already offer and honor all returned coins.
The best way to stop this in it's tracks, is to get CW, etc. to end their ads---but CW says CC gives full refunds
(of coarse one wonders how much CW makes a month from these big ads!!). How would CW make up the lost revenue??
If you read the FTC information I posted above, you will note that they draw a distinction between the normal subjectivity inherent in coin grading and intentional overgrading to deceive consumers, which they clearly describe as fraud. Here's the key question: Does anyone has proof of this and, if they do, will they step up and give that proof to the people who can and will take effective action?
Blaming the victim doesn't help the hobby. Being smug because you didn't get burned doesn't help the hobby. If dealers are really out there knowingly buying large quantities of AU/sliders/problem coins to doctor them and sell them as BU, their suppliers (and others) know this is going on. Are those who know going to step up and tell the proper authorities or just take the money and run?
<< <i>If you read the FTC information I posted above, you will note that they draw a distinction between the normal subjectivity inherent in coin grading and intentional overgrading to deceive consumers, which they clearly describe as fraud. Here's the key question: Does anyone has proof of this and, if they do, will they step up and give that proof to the people who can and will take effective action?
Blaming the victim doesn't help the hobby. Being smug because you didn't get burned doesn't help the hobby. If dealers are really out there knowingly buying large quantities of AU/sliders/problem coins to doctor them and sell them as BU, their suppliers (and others) know this is going on. Are those who know going to step up and tell the proper authorities or just take the money and run? >>
Met newsman today at the Baltimore show.
Very knowledgeable and interesting man.
This forum has some real assets.
Thought this thread should be brought back to the forefront after speaking with him and TooTawl.
BTW, TooTawl is definitely too tall.
I truly looked up to him as we spoke.
He too, is a great wealth of knowledge.
It was so cool today, as I was speaking to Julian, he says, "Hey TooTawl and Newsman, it's Goldully!"
I really enjoyed our meeting.
This is a very "GOOD" reason to attend an important coin show such as Baltimore.
Thanks for taking some time out today for me, guys!!!!
They're total scam artists. The only coins thay sell that aren't overgraded are the ones they MISTASKENLY forgot to add SEVERAL grades to over and above the grades they bought the coin(s) at.
Personally, the one and only time I got burned by them was almost 25-30 years ago. Yes thay refunded my money upon return but don't ALL ponzi scheme artisans do the same to keep disgruntled quiet?
I sent a letter to the editor at CW a few years ago and posted it and the results on a thread here.
I asked why they were allowed to continue advertising as they seemingly violated CW's own policies regarding complaints. I got an email back that said they've never had any complaints about CtC from subscribers. I replied that the ad revenue that CtC is so lucrative that it must have clouded CW's judgement in this matter. She didn't like it at all. I dropped my subscription after that.
One thing that CtC and the other full-page advertisers do, in my opinion, that keeps them at arm's length from being investigated, is their grading disclaimer. Read it sometime. "according to industry standards and their interpretation" or something like that. And the others also include that little gem in their grading standards that CW requires.
Look at what a full page ad costs in CW or NN, multiply by the # of pages each issue, times 52. Yeah, there's a discount for a year's worth, but the money the publications are getting from these firms is HUGE. There's your answer.
BTW, I'd be careful with accusatory comments and statements on the forum about CtC or any of the others. Look what happened with the ACG fiasco. I remember donating money for a couple of the board members' legal expenses...
There are no official standards for coin grading, unlike what constitutes PRIME beef, 89 octane gasoline, 14 karat gold, etc. Most coin dealers AND collectors do not want the coin hobby regulated as the securities industry, with madated grades, also "permissible" profit margins, where every transaction is reported to the government, you can trade coins only through a licensed broker, making a crime of using "inside information" such as knowing who has a coin for sale or who wants a certain coin unless that information is made available to everyone , or where "cherry picking" a variety could cause you to go to prison, etc.
Most problems are caused from greed, where someone thinks a dealer can buy expensive full page ads and sell coins for half the price that a reputable dealer would willingly pay for them wholesale if they were properly described. If people realized "there is no Santa Claus in numismatics" such dealers would not be able to stay in business.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>There are no official standards for coin grading, unlike what constitutes PRIME beef, 89 octane gasoline, 14 karat gold, etc. Most coin dealers AND collectors do not want the coin hobby regulated as the securities industry, with madated grades, also "permissible" profit margins, where every transaction is reported to the government, you can trade coins only through a licensed broker, making a crime of using "inside information" such as knowing who has a coin for sale or who wants a certain coin unless that information is made available to everyone , or where "cherry picking" a variety could cause you to go to prison, etc.
Most problems are caused from greed, where someone thinks a dealer can buy expensive full page ads and sell coins for half the price that a reputable dealer would willingly pay for them wholesale if they were properly described. If people realized "there is no Santa Claus in numismatics" such dealers would not be able to stay in business. >>
I think you miss the point, Frank. CtC advertises GEM BU and then sends an AU55 coin. Methinks it's not greed on the part of the customer, but deceptive advertising and greed on the part of the dealer. As I mentioned in an earlier post above, the advertisers in these pubs are required to state their grading standards. The full-page ad guys indicate Photograde or ANA but then put in the qualifier "their best interpretation of industry standards".
So, are you saying that the industry standards in this hobby are such that the standard grading books go out the window and are replaced by the dealers' "interpretation"?
As I said, they fill the ad coffers of CW, NN and others with their business and the pubs look the other way.
If we were talking about the difference of a MS68 to MS69 or something similar, then I would agree with you. But to advertise GEM BU and send a whizzed AU is deceptive and possibly criminal.
They also have other creative grades that are meaningless and should be interpreted by the customer as crappy, crappier and crappiest: Premium BU, Select BU, BU and . What the hell do those "grades" mean?
You are defending the wrong perpetrators my friend.
A simple rule I end with when I give talks to new collectors across the country...
"There ain't no Santa Clause in Numismatics"
Grammatical error not withstanding, the point is really that you get what you pay for (yet, another grammatical blunder). When a firm offers coins openly to the public at prices that are at or below wholesale, something is amiss. Know that numismatics is not a sleepy hobby but there are many thousands of dealers and wise collectors that would snatch up any "bargains" like those that are offered by those with full page ads in the trade papers if they were indeed bargains or heck, even fair values.
The reason why those ads still run is that they work AND they sell coins to novice and unsuspecting collectors. Fortunately, you learned very early in the process. Many of us have had the sad opportunity to "educate" collectors who have been clients of these companies for many years only for them to learn that they numismatic treasures are either worth a small fraction of their purported value or the coins are not even marketable.
My suggestion is...join the ANA (www.money.org) and check out books from the library. It will be the best investment you make in the hobby.
Lane
Edited to add: Much of the above has been written already, but I posted before reading the entire post.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Methinks it's not greed on the part of the customer, but deceptive advertising and greed on the part of the dealer. As I mentioned in an earlier post above, the advertisers in these pubs are required to state their grading standards. The full-page ad guys indicate Photograde or ANA but then put in the qualifier "their best interpretation of industry standards". >>
IMO, it's both. It's "greed" on the part of the customer to think they can get a gem BU coin for AU money. And the dealer feeds on this, not only delivering an AU coin as a "BU" coin but often also whizzed, cleaned or polished in the process.
Why is it greed on the customers part? If a coin in a certain grade is advertised for a certain price I dont think I would call that greed. I dont think a dealer feed this by sending a different coin than offerd or one that has been "messed" with. I call that fruad and deciet.
<< <i> I think you miss the point, Frank. CtC advertises GEM BU and then sends an AU55 coin. Methinks it's not greed on the part of the customer, but deceptive advertising and greed on the part of the dealer. As I mentioned in an earlier post above, the advertisers in these pubs are required to state their grading standards. The full-page ad guys indicate Photograde or ANA but then put in the qualifier "their best interpretation of industry standards". >>
Certainly, that should be a red flag not to buy from those dealers. I am not defending their practices, simply giving warning to what collectors will encounter, and under the law, they have committted no crime, nor does the ANA have any enforecement teeth against non ANA members.
<< <i>So, are you saying that the industry standards in this hobby are such that the standard grading books go out the window and are replaced by the dealers' "interpretation"? >>
In such cases where they specifically tell you that they DON'T use industry standards...yes. Then again, both NGC and PCGS regularly put AU coins in MS61 or MS62 slabs because "they are worth an Uncirculated price, not an AU price."
<< <i>As I said, they fill the ad coffers of CW, NN and others with their business and the pubs look the other way. >>
As long as they fulfill the conditions stated in their ad (including grading coins to their own standards) the publication can do nothing. The Numistmatist, on the other hand, is owned by the ANA, and requires its advertisers to be members and uphold the ANA dealer code of ethics. When someone spends thousands of dollars with a company that is not an ANA member, and in some cases has been EXPELLED from the ANA, one has to wonder if those same people go to unlicensed doctors, or give their money to "Vinnie up the street" to invest.
<< <i>If we were talking about the difference of a MS68 to MS69 or something similar, then I would agree with you. But to advertise GEM BU and send a whizzed AU is deceptive and possibly criminal. >>
The last time the ANA took legal action aginst that practice, the judge ruled that
1. There is nothing illegal about whizzing coins
2. Some collectors prefer whizzed coins and some do not.
3. Case dismissed
<< <i>They also have other creative grades that are meaningless and should be interpreted by the customer as crappy, crappier and crappiest: Premium BU, Select BU, BU and . What the hell do those "grades" mean? >>
They mean nothing, which is why they use such terms. That was my beef with ebay restricting use of official ANA numerical grades and forcing sellers of raw coins to use the very such terms. That leaves buyers with NO CLAIM AGAINST FRAUD, because the coins are described in such as way as to mean anything the seller wants it to mean.
<< <i>You are defending the wrong perpetrators my friend. >>
Again, I am not defending such dealers, only explaining reality.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>Real question is, How have they been able to rip people off for so long without being shut down? >>
MY question exactly!!!! >>
Only law enforcement can "shut something down." I would prefer educated collectors rather than having the police or the feds tell collectors and dealers how they must grade a coin (do you think the government can grade coins better than PCGS -- or better than a collector with 20 years' experience?)
Ready to go to jail for selling a coin and making "an unfair profit" with only government regulators making the decision that it's "unfair?"
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Are you the skipper from the SS Minnow? He got ripped off by Gilligan. I think they went Coast to Coast also, that Damned Mr Howell I wonder how many coins he had in his collection.
<<'Look at what a full page ad costs in CW or NN, multiply by the # of pages each issue, times 52. Yeah, there's a discount for a year's worth, but the money the publications are getting from these firms is HUGE. There's your answer.">>
So how much do you think that CtC or PS spend on advertising in CW and how much in other publications? $20K? Advertising is just one cost of doing business plus all the other crap they send out. They must do a whopping big business then. Lots and lots suckers or people who don't know too much.
Are you the skipper from the SS Minnow? He got ripped off Gilligan. I think they went Coast to Coast also, that Damned Mr Howell I wonder how many coins he had in his collection. >>
YaHa, sorry your legs were in need of some scooterin'.........but, you missed TooTawl and Newsday at the Show.
Did I leave out "Saint" Julian???? Every person that walks in the front door says 'Hi, Julian!!!...Hey Julian...JULIAN!!!!!!, etc."
You would love them and vice-versa.....next time for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comments
<< <i>There is only one other advertiser in NN and CW that I have bought raw from, and, guess what? Same thing....I wont divulge the name, but the initials are P.S., and they are located just a bit south of Coast to Coast. >>
I was wondering when someone was going to mention this other fine purveyor of crappy coins.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>What I believe would be helpful to many collectors is an editorial or article in Coin World discussing these issues of predatory coin sales from firms like C to C and PS. >>
I won't hold my breath waiting for the editorial side of the magazine to bash its advertisers.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
I did though at one time get taken from a 2 page ad in CW (FT Worth coin exchange)
And from some mutt who owned Ramapo Coin.
Luckily i did not take too much of a loss.
The coins from FT Worth I got a refund for, (after 3 months) and Ramapo I just ate the loss.
Stev
Members are bringing back memories I thught I had forgotten.
C2C.....bought some coins from them, as I remember all where dipped. I returned the copper as the color was obviously off.
I kept the silver as I did not care if they were 'white'.
I was fairly new & collecting for Danscos at the time.
AH, the good ol' days!
<< <i>First Joel Rettlew, now Coast to Coast..... >>
Someone started a thread concerning a coin for sale by Coin Depot. This must be scumbag dealer day on the boards.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I won't hold my breath waiting for the editorial side of the magazine to bash its advertisers. >>
Pines got booted from the ANA about the same time Gillio was being investigates for something (I forget what now.) They covered the Gillio story in detail, but nary a word about Pines.
I wrote a letter to the ed asking why this equally important news story (actually, more important as action was taken against Pines and Gillio was cleared) wasn't covered. Needless to say there was no response, nor was it printed in CW.
I would suggest that those of us who are aware of what they believe are deceptive or fraudulent business practices contact these folks with the facts of their cases. If enough people do so, perhaps some action will follow.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have met some of their employees here and actually the
impression I get is that CC DOES NOT whizz stuff. Instead they by other dealers problems at
huge discounts and then mix in really common coins (think 1922-23-24 MS63 Peace Dollars) from
wholesaled rolls, and place large orders from bid outfits for AU55-58's. All their stuff is then dipped
twice--first with a tough agent that strips everything, then a version of MS70 to give that
super oil-like, vasoline shine so prized by newbees!
If true, that implies a deliberate intent to deceive consumers, which is illegal under Maryland law.
Usually, the value of a rare coin is determined by its grade and rarity, so it is very important that the rare coins you buy are graded correctly. The grade of a rare coin is a shorthand method of describing its condition. Because grading includes such factors as "overall appearance" and "eye appeal," it necessarily involves some degree of subjectivity. As a result, the grade assigned to a particular coin may vary even among legitimate dealers, especially in the higher, investment- quality grades where distinctions in condition are more subtle. Because the fine distinctions between grades often mean large differences in the value or price of a coin, the subjectivity in grading means that there is some inherent risk in coin investing. Fraudulent sellers, however, often intentionally inflate the grades of the coins they sell, charging prices many times the coins' actual value. For example, you might pay $450 for an 1882-S Morgan dollar, that was described to you as having a high grade because of its excellent condition. Later, however, you may find that the accurate grade for the coin is two or more grades lower, and that the coin is actually worth only $50. Prior to the advent of independant certification services, false grading was the most common form of rare coin fraud.
Link to information
<< <i>I have met some of their employees here and actually the
impression I get is that CC DOES NOT whizz stuff. Instead they by other dealers problems at
huge discounts and then mix in really common coins (think 1922-23-24 MS63 Peace Dollars) from
wholesaled rolls, and place large orders from bid outfits for AU55-58's. All their stuff is then dipped
twice--first with a tough agent that strips everything, then a version of MS70 to give that
super oil-like, vasoline shine so prized by newbees!
-----Two posts have just pointed out this is State fraud in Maryland---certainly the intent to decieve is there I agree.
As I pointed out above, they really aren't deceptively doctoring coins, just dipping etc.
that both NGC, PCGS,etal. agree is not really altering with the intent to decieve.
The question then is does a dealer have the obligation to say a coin is whizzed at one extreem to sightly
hairlined from a light brush with baking soda at the lesser damage extreem??
They should know that the steeply discounted coins they buy from dealers have problems.
Then the legal problem is to get employee--buyer type personnel to testify that they do know.
Obviously Mr. Pines is so rich, he doesn't evaluate material--only set policy.
As for sliders being called BU, and "premium", and other oddball grade terms. You run into
the problem of "all grading is subjective" and CC has it's own system and terms for grading, and other BS.
Ultimately a criminal case agaist the corporation may be the best route in my uniformed, non lawyer OPINION.
A civil action in my opinion would only get your money back plus costs, and they already offer and honor all returned coins.
The best way to stop this in it's tracks, is to get CW, etc. to end their ads---but CW says CC gives full refunds
(of coarse one wonders how much CW makes a month from these big ads!!). How would CW make up the lost revenue??
SAD SITUATION I THINK--
Blaming the victim doesn't help the hobby. Being smug because you didn't get burned doesn't help the hobby. If dealers are really out there knowingly buying large quantities of AU/sliders/problem coins to doctor them and sell them as BU, their suppliers (and others) know this is going on. Are those who know going to step up and tell the proper authorities or just take the money and run?
<< <i>If you read the FTC information I posted above, you will note that they draw a distinction between the normal subjectivity inherent in coin grading and intentional overgrading to deceive consumers, which they clearly describe as fraud. Here's the key question: Does anyone has proof of this and, if they do, will they step up and give that proof to the people who can and will take effective action?
Blaming the victim doesn't help the hobby. Being smug because you didn't get burned doesn't help the hobby. If dealers are really out there knowingly buying large quantities of AU/sliders/problem coins to doctor them and sell them as BU, their suppliers (and others) know this is going on. Are those who know going to step up and tell the proper authorities or just take the money and run?
Met newsman today at the Baltimore show.
Very knowledgeable and interesting man.
This forum has some real assets.
Thought this thread should be brought back to the forefront after speaking with him and TooTawl.
BTW, TooTawl is definitely too tall.
I truly looked up to him as we spoke.
He too, is a great wealth of knowledge.
It was so cool today, as I was speaking to Julian, he says, "Hey TooTawl and Newsman, it's Goldully!"
I really enjoyed our meeting.
This is a very "GOOD" reason to attend an important coin show such as Baltimore.
Thanks for taking some time out today for me, guys!!!!
Personally, the one and only time I got burned by them was almost 25-30 years ago. Yes thay refunded my money upon return but don't ALL ponzi scheme artisans do the same to keep disgruntled quiet?
I asked why they were allowed to continue advertising as they seemingly violated CW's own policies regarding complaints.
I got an email back that said they've never had any complaints about CtC from subscribers.
I replied that the ad revenue that CtC is so lucrative that it must have clouded CW's judgement in this matter. She didn't like it at all. I dropped my subscription after that.
One thing that CtC and the other full-page advertisers do, in my opinion, that keeps them at arm's length from being investigated, is their grading disclaimer. Read it sometime. "according to industry standards and their interpretation" or something like that. And the others also include that little gem in their grading standards that CW requires.
Look at what a full page ad costs in CW or NN, multiply by the # of pages each issue, times 52. Yeah, there's a discount for a year's worth, but the money the publications are getting from these firms is HUGE. There's your answer.
BTW, I'd be careful with accusatory comments and statements on the forum about CtC or any of the others. Look what happened with the ACG fiasco. I remember donating money for a couple of the board members' legal expenses...
Vietnam Vet 1968-1969
Most problems are caused from greed, where someone thinks a dealer can buy expensive full page ads and sell coins for half the price that a reputable dealer would willingly pay for them wholesale if they were properly described. If people realized "there is no Santa Claus in numismatics" such dealers would not be able to stay in business.
<< <i>
BTW, TooTawl is definitely too tall.
I truly looked up to him as we spoke.
He too, is a great wealth of knowledge.
>>
Cool! I bullshi--ed someone enough to think I actually know something!
<< <i>There are no official standards for coin grading, unlike what constitutes PRIME beef, 89 octane gasoline, 14 karat gold, etc. Most coin dealers AND collectors do not want the coin hobby regulated as the securities industry, with madated grades, also "permissible" profit margins, where every transaction is reported to the government, you can trade coins only through a licensed broker, making a crime of using "inside information" such as knowing who has a coin for sale or who wants a certain coin unless that information is made available to everyone , or where "cherry picking" a variety could cause you to go to prison, etc.
Most problems are caused from greed, where someone thinks a dealer can buy expensive full page ads and sell coins for half the price that a reputable dealer would willingly pay for them wholesale if they were properly described. If people realized "there is no Santa Claus in numismatics" such dealers would not be able to stay in business. >>
I think you miss the point, Frank. CtC advertises GEM BU and then sends an AU55 coin. Methinks it's not greed on the part of the customer, but deceptive advertising and greed on the part of the dealer. As I mentioned in an earlier post above, the advertisers in these pubs are required to state their grading standards. The full-page ad guys indicate Photograde or ANA but then put in the qualifier "their best interpretation of industry standards".
So, are you saying that the industry standards in this hobby are such that the standard grading books go out the window and are replaced by the dealers' "interpretation"?
As I said, they fill the ad coffers of CW, NN and others with their business and the pubs look the other way.
If we were talking about the difference of a MS68 to MS69 or something similar, then I would agree with you. But to advertise GEM BU and send a whizzed AU is deceptive and possibly criminal.
They also have other creative grades that are meaningless and should be interpreted by the customer as crappy, crappier and crappiest: Premium BU, Select BU, BU and . What the hell do those "grades" mean?
You are defending the wrong perpetrators my friend.
Vietnam Vet 1968-1969
A simple rule I end with when I give talks to new collectors across the country...
"There ain't no Santa Clause in Numismatics"
Grammatical error not withstanding, the point is really that you get what you pay for (yet, another grammatical blunder). When a firm offers coins openly to the public at prices that are at or below wholesale, something is amiss. Know that numismatics is not a sleepy hobby but there are many thousands of dealers and wise collectors that would snatch up any "bargains" like those that are offered by those with full page ads in the trade papers if they were indeed bargains or heck, even fair values.
The reason why those ads still run is that they work AND they sell coins to novice and unsuspecting collectors. Fortunately, you learned very early in the process. Many of us have had the sad opportunity to "educate" collectors who have been clients of these companies for many years only for them to learn that they numismatic treasures are either worth a small fraction of their purported value or the coins are not even marketable.
My suggestion is...join the ANA (www.money.org) and check out books from the library. It will be the best investment you make in the hobby.
Lane
Edited to add: Much of the above has been written already, but I posted before reading the entire post.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Methinks it's not greed on the part of the customer, but deceptive advertising and greed on the part of the dealer. As I mentioned in an earlier post above, the advertisers in these pubs are required to state their grading standards. The full-page ad guys indicate Photograde or ANA but then put in the qualifier "their best interpretation of industry standards". >>
IMO, it's both. It's "greed" on the part of the customer to think they can get a gem BU coin for AU money. And the dealer feeds on this, not only delivering an AU coin as a "BU" coin but often also whizzed, cleaned or polished in the process.
<< <i>Coast to Coast is not too bad in the classic coins arena but Jonathan Kern head over heels superior to them!. >>
Yes, a great example of the "exception to the rule" when it comes to full-page advertisers in the trade papers. Jonathan Kern is one of the good guys.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Just remember, as long as these 'dealers' stay in business you'll always have subject matter!
What job security.
Garrow
<< <i>
I think you miss the point, Frank. CtC advertises GEM BU and then sends an AU55 coin. Methinks it's not greed on the part of the customer, but deceptive advertising and greed on the part of the dealer. As I mentioned in an earlier post above, the advertisers in these pubs are required to state their grading standards. The full-page ad guys indicate Photograde or ANA but then put in the qualifier "their best interpretation of industry standards". >>
Certainly, that should be a red flag not to buy from those dealers. I am not defending their practices, simply giving warning to what collectors will encounter, and under the law, they have committted no crime, nor does the ANA have any enforecement teeth against non ANA members.
<< <i>So, are you saying that the industry standards in this hobby are such that the standard grading books go out the window and are replaced by the dealers' "interpretation"? >>
In such cases where they specifically tell you that they DON'T use industry standards...yes. Then again, both NGC and PCGS regularly put AU coins in MS61 or MS62 slabs because
"they are worth an Uncirculated price, not an AU price."
<< <i>As I said, they fill the ad coffers of CW, NN and others with their business and the pubs look the other way. >>
As long as they fulfill the conditions stated in their ad (including grading coins to their own standards) the publication can do nothing. The Numistmatist, on the other hand,
is owned by the ANA, and requires its advertisers to be members and uphold the ANA dealer code of ethics. When someone spends thousands of dollars with a company
that is not an ANA member, and in some cases has been EXPELLED from the ANA, one has to wonder if those same people go to unlicensed doctors, or give their money to "Vinnie up the street" to invest.
<< <i>If we were talking about the difference of a MS68 to MS69 or something similar, then I would agree with you. But to advertise GEM BU and send a whizzed AU is deceptive and possibly criminal. >>
The last time the ANA took legal action aginst that practice, the judge ruled that
1. There is nothing illegal about whizzing coins
2. Some collectors prefer whizzed coins and some do not.
3. Case dismissed
<< <i>They also have other creative grades that are meaningless and should be interpreted by the customer as crappy, crappier and crappiest: Premium BU, Select BU, BU and . What the hell do those "grades" mean? >>
They mean nothing, which is why they use such terms. That was my beef with ebay restricting use of official ANA numerical grades and forcing sellers of raw coins to
use the very such terms. That leaves buyers with NO CLAIM AGAINST FRAUD, because the coins are described in such as way as to mean anything the seller wants it to mean.
<< <i>You are defending the wrong perpetrators my friend. >>
Again, I am not defending such dealers, only explaining reality.
<< <i>Real question is, How have they been able to rip people off for so long without being shut down? >>
MY question exactly!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Real question is, How have they been able to rip people off for so long without being shut down? >>
MY question exactly!!!! >>
Only law enforcement can "shut something down." I would prefer educated collectors rather than having the police or the feds tell collectors and dealers
how they must grade a coin (do you think the government can grade coins better than PCGS -- or better than a collector with 20 years' experience?)
Ready to go to jail for selling a coin and making "an unfair profit" with only government regulators making the decision that it's "unfair?"
<< <i>I'm relatively new to coin collecting/
Are you the skipper from the SS Minnow? He got ripped off by Gilligan.
I think they went Coast to Coast also, that Damned Mr Howell I wonder how many coins he had in his collection.
So how much do you think that CtC or PS spend on advertising in CW and how much in other publications? $20K? Advertising is just one cost of doing business plus all the other crap they send out. They must do a whopping big business then. Lots and lots suckers or people who don't know too much.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm relatively new to coin collecting/
Are you the skipper from the SS Minnow? He got ripped off Gilligan.
I think they went Coast to Coast also, that Damned Mr Howell I wonder how many coins he had in his collection.
YaHa, sorry your legs were in need of some scooterin'.........but, you missed TooTawl and Newsday at the Show.
Did I leave out "Saint" Julian???? Every person that walks in the front door says 'Hi, Julian!!!...Hey Julian...JULIAN!!!!!!, etc."
You would love them and vice-versa.....next time for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!