I bought a "Brilliant Unicrculated" 1910 $10 Indian from them a while back and ouch!! it was whizzed, possibly a counterfit, and overall poor in appearence. I sent it back, QUICKLY, for a refund. No more Coast to Coast. For raw, visit your dealer. Use the BIG ad pages in Coin Mags for entertainment.
I purchased from them a number of times 5-7 years ago. Half my items were BB-ed as cleaned, the other half were encapsulated as AU which I bought as "BU". It's part of the "tuition" process we all speak of from time-to-time. Glad mine's over. I only buy current UNC ASEs or APEs since my "education".
Spare your best friend's life!! Adopt an adult dog at your local "kill" animal shelter. You will be changed.
Their big ads always catch my eye in NN. Glad I haven't paid any 'tuition' to them though, thanks to the boards!! Especially since I'm still paying back my actual college loans. They would be paid off by now if I didn't buy so many damn coins
They are with out a doubt the # 1 coin doctors of the business. ALL they sell is crap as testimony from the thread contributers. Anyone ever been by "store" ? Heck no, because it does not exist. They are located near Baltimore in a business park suite with NO public access. Their success is based on inexperience (yes, they got me too on a BU Indian cent). I was so pissed, that I was going to take it back and hunted them down. Well, as I said, there is no customer service its all cover their A$$ service. I am sure that PCGS has them TOPS on the list of coin doctoring scum. Too bad I can not tell you what I really feel about Ken Pines BS coin doctoring factory but I hope he rots in Hell.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
wel, i hope now this thread will make its way to homerun hall's attention. It should be. What abunch of crap. i wont be doing any buisness with them. period.
i wonder if they will be made an example out of. they really only need a few to make a real strong statement.
<< <i>Their big ads always catch my eye in NN. Glad I haven't paid any 'tuition' to them though, thanks to the boards!! Especially since I'm still paying back my actual college loans. They would be paid off by now if I didn't buy so many damn coins >>
If it's any consolation, we're all paying off one thing or another...and still buyin' coins.
"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
I fell for the hype too... once. They were advertising "AU" Hungarian Madonna and Child denars from the 1500s and 1600s in quantity for an attractive price. I collect those by date, so I bought 10.
1 out of the 10 was AU as advertised, 2 were XF, the remainder VF or lower, and virtually all had subpar flans.
No problem getting a refund, but had to eat the shipping.
<< <i>wel, i hope now this thread will make its way to homerun hall's attention. It should be. What abunch of crap. i wont be doing any buisness with them. period.
i wonder if they will be made an example out of. they really only need a few to make a real strong statement. >>
I'm curious...what do you expect David Hall to do, if indeed, the thread catches his attention? Your expectations of him on a company that he doesn't own, control, or possibly have any influence over?
sorry. i thought he was with pcgs, i just meant if these guys are known coin doctors, selling doctored coins as original, for profit, why wouldnt pcgs as a company go after them with the policy statements. thats all. i think i was confuused about HRH. sorry about that.
<< <i>sorry. i thought he was with pcgs, i just meant if these guys are known coin doctors, selling doctored coins as original, for profit, why wouldnt pcgs as a company go after them with the policy statements. thats all. i think i was confuused about HRH. sorry about that. >>
Because PCGS can't do anything if they aren't trying to do it to PCGS coins or coins going to PCGS. If someone doctors a raw coin, the TPGS can't do anything if they aren't involved....
Think of it like this..... If you do something to a build it yourself PC, do you expect Dell to be able to do anything about it?
When Coast to Coast says that they do not clean their coins I believe them. But, they buy such quanities that I believe that they don't bother to weed the crummy ones out.
I have yet to see any real deals in their magazine mailout.
But, occassionally you will find something in the single listed coins in the back of the mailouts. My best was a 1885-CC listed as Good and it was problem and mark free and PCGS graded it a G-4.
I quit buying from them because I got tired of sending stuff back. On another note, anything I sent back was immediately credited back to my CC. Never a question asked.
Best deal at C to C right now: 1955-D 25C listed as GemBU at $4.75
They are old school dealers; sell it raw and grade it according to their very optimistic standards. Jake's marketplace, Miller's mint and others are of this same vein. Maybe you get an Unc., maybe you get a AU for Unc. price. You are rolling the dice. However, as easy as it is to slab a coin and market it for the true market price that holdering gives you, it seems logical to holder a coin to maximize profits.
So, if it is claimed to be Unc. and it is not holdered, it is probably because they know it is problematic and will not holder. In today's age of TPGraded coins, those who sell Unc's raw are gaming the last of the naive buyers IMO.
<< <i>They are old school dealers; sell it raw and grade it according to their very optimistic standards. Jake's marketplace, Miller's mint and others are of this same vein. Maybe you get an Unc., maybe you get a AU for Unc. price. You are rolling the dice. However, as easy as it is to slab a coin and market it for the true market price that holdering gives you, it seems logical to holder a coin to maximize profits.
So, if it is claimed to be Unc. and it is not holdered, it is probably because they know it is problematic and will not holder. In today's age of TPGraded coins, those who sell Unc's raw are gaming the last of the naive buyers IMO.
<< <i>They are old school dealers; sell it raw and grade it according to their very optimistic standards. Jake's marketplace, Miller's mint and others are of this same vein. Maybe you get an Unc., maybe you get a AU for Unc. price. You are rolling the dice. However, as easy as it is to slab a coin and market it for the true market price that holdering gives you, it seems logical to holder a coin to maximize profits.
So, if it is claimed to be Unc. and it is not holdered, it is probably because they know it is problematic and will not holder. In today's age of TPGraded coins, those who sell Unc's raw are gaming the last of the naive buyers IMO.
Tyler >>
I've bot raw coins that have definitely been BU64-65s when stated BU in the ad on ebay and elsewhere. But you're right, it's a coin toss or crap shot. Return policies offer an out, too.
"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
I once bought a coin from a company similar to Coast to Coast (Mount Vernon.) Bought an 1884-S Morgan labeled as an UNC. When I got it, it was not UNC, but rather a low AU coin with some luster (and I'm sure you guys know the price spread between an AU and a UNC on these). I returned it and thank god because I just BARELY made the cutoff for a refund. Never again though from any of those companies.
Hi.. bought a 1909s vdb from them.. raw, advertised as AU, received the coin and it was wizzed beyond belief...returned it. I have had no luck really buying raw coins from the big advertised dealers in the coin pubs.. returned most. Mainly by certified pcgs or ncg, not that i havnt been disappointed with a few of those. cheers all.
Positive BST Transactions:
coinsarefun, marmac, LindeDad, andree, robkool, TwoSides2aCoin, waterzooey, agentjim007 All were A++++ Transactions- Thank you !
<< <i>Hi.. bought a 1909s vdb from them.. raw, advertised as AU, received the coin and it was wizzed beyond belief...returned it. I have had no luck really buying raw coins from the big advertised dealers in the coin pubs.. returned most. Mainly by certified pcgs or ncg, not that i havnt been disappointed with a few of those. cheers all. >>
Welcome, wil2008!
Buying from Ken Pines / Coast to Coast is only worthwhile if you are a major shareholder in a dividend-paying shipping company. And I doubt that David Hall will do a thing about them.
<< <i>The real question is when will Coin World show some courage and act against them for false advertising? I would be happy to provide an example of Coast to Coast's numismatic expertise , in the form of two "full red Gem BU" Indian head cents which were bodybagged as AT by PCGS and were easily recognized by other dealers as artificially colored . >>
When they tell you that they use their own interpretation of grading standards, and they are not members of the ANA, it's buyer beware.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Coast to Coast isn't the only coin dealer using this business model (clean, whizz, and overgrade). There are several other dealers with the large ads in CW with mostly all raw coins. Beware of these dealers too since they are just as bad. It's coin dealers like these that have made third party grading services so successful.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I gotta say, since coming here to the boards, I think as a collector Im going stick to buying stuff here at the bst. Filler stuff and maybe some graded stuff off other sites, but Id rather take a chance here.
You guys have pointed out the real reason CW and NN do nothing...if you follow the stated policy you get a refund. This has been the same scam since Numis Scrapbook ads in the 30's to 60's when NN and CW took over. Yes they're all lowlifes but they give your money back fast, cause there's thousands of suckers who never send any back. These are the same types of characters now living under virtual rocks on eBay.
The reason these full-page ad guys thrive is the majority of collectors have no idea what they're looking at, and don't realize they were screwed until they try to sell.
For example: A couple of years ago, there was an ad in the classifieds of our local paper for a coin collection for sale, specifically saying No Dealers. The phone number was a nearby exchange, so I called. Turned out to be an old-tiimer, and we got together at the community center of his condo development. He had quite a few albums full of coins and 2x2's, as well. 90% of the coins were cleaned, some of them obvious from across the room, like pink IHCs. I asked him if he cleaned any of them and he said, "no, you should never clean coins." So, he knew cleaning was bad, but had no idea how to recognize it. The No Dealers in his ad was because he took his collection to a local few dealers and they offered him 5-10% of what he thought the coins were worth. I thanked him for his time, and simply said these weren't the type of coins that interested me.
I bought one coin from them last summer for $39.00, a 1909 vdb penny. Very bright and red. I sent it in to get graded, and it came back in a BB. It was whizzed.
A lesson learned. Never, ever will I buy a coin from CC again.
I don't get it. You buy a coin from a mail order company that advertises BU coins at half the market rate. When you receive the coin, you're surprised it's not uncirculated, but a dipped AU???? Now you want to complain about having to ship it back and having to eat the postage. Remember the adage, "If it looks to good to be true, it probably is." Why would you expect something different. Ken Pines is a for-profit company that won't sell you a coin at below market price. This is true of the other mail-order companies as well.
I have never bought a coin form Coast to Coast for this reason. I'm not going to bash his company because it is, clearly, what it is. Anyone expecting something better is a victim of his/her own greed. All have said he has honored his return policy, correct? The buyer HAS to take some responsibility in this situation.
<< <i>I I'm not going to bash his company because it is, clearly, what it is. Anyone expecting something better is a victim of his/her own greed. All have said he has honored his return policy, correct? The buyer HAS to take some responsibility in this situation. >>
Unfortunately, companies like this prey upon the unknowledgeable even more so than on the greedy. It's taken me decades to amass the paltry numismatic knowledge that I possess. Many people new to collecting don't truly understand that the adage "you get what you pay for" applies to coins as well. They learn the lesson eventually, but by that time it's often too late and the result is that collectors stop collecting in disgust because they don't think they can trust any dealer to be honest about the quality of their wares.
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Coin World has a responsibility for the representations made in the ads in the pages of their publication. Someone who has been defrauded should call them on it. I do not buy raw coins anymore.
"If someone says 'A penny for your thoughts' and you give them your 2 cents worth, what happens to the extra penny?" G.Carlin
I have purchased from them exactly ONCE. I sent back the order, and spoke with some older woman in regard to the condition of the coins, which were 'allegedly' BU Morgan dollars. I was told they would gladly replace the coins, and she even went so far as to not on my acct to look for 'better than the next in line to get shipped out'. I got that replacement order, and much to my dismay, the replacements were overall WORSE than the original order. I called them, sent the order back, and kindly asked for a full refund, which I did get (in a timely fashion, I must add) when they received my shipment.
A few months passed, and I thought I would take a shot on a few Lincolns (1911-S and 1931-S). When asked if I had ordered with them before, and told them I had, my account was pulled up, and at that moment, was told (not verbatim, but pretty damn close) that they would no longer accept my business because I was too picky/particular. As someone spending decent money on coins, I feel I SHOULD be picky.....I simply used their return option.
There is only one other advertiser in NN and CW that I have bought raw from, and, guess what? Same thing....I wont divulge the name, but the initials are P.S., and they are located just a bit south of Coast to Coast. After my experience with those two 'dealers', I would never buy another raw coin unless it was in my hand, with a loupe, and I knew exactly what to look for, because I took my time and read up on the series. It's sad because if you really look at it objectively, take those kinds of dealers advertisements out of NN and CW, each issue would be about 50% smaller than they actually are.
To see what responsibilities CW takes, simply go to page 125 of the Feb 11th issue. The last section, 'Coin grading and description' states at a MINIMUM, coins advertised for sale must meet 'Photograde', 'The ANA grading standard for US coins', 'The Numismatic certification Institute Grading Guide', and 'A guide to the grading of US coins'. Funny thing is, the section states not all are needed to be adhered to, and also, "Advertisers using any one of the standard methods need to make reference to the grading method(s) used in the ads". Coast to Coast's policy, while adhering to CW's rules, and I quote, "All items graded by Photograde & our interpretation of industry standards." If they are interpreting whizzed, scratched, EF/AU coins, being advertised as BU, this hobby is going to go straight down the tubes. Oh, and if you catch Robert Charles ad on page 35 of the Feb 11th issue of CW, while they are authorized NGC, PCGS dealers, a member of the ANA, they STILL do not state what reference they use, and they SHOULD because they DO, in fact, sell raw coins/currency. In closing, I guess BU has a different meaning in those that 'interpret industry standards'...and more than one advertiser uses that same term, worded slightly differently.
Some things never change. Many of the replies contain a lot of truth. The garbage that is going on is very similar to what I remember when reading and replying to CW dealer ads 30 years ago. It's about time for NN and CW to crack down on these creeps, and this won't happen until they get a lot of grief from angry subscribers.
One respondent said that 'you get what you pay for' in buying coins. That's far too generous---you only get what you pay for IF you really know what the he!! you're doing. The primary lesson here is: do not buy raw coins from a dealer whom you don't already know and trust. Second lesson: learn to grade, or at least promptly show your new purchases to others for their opinions. Don't wait to do this until you decide to sell, frequently many years later, and then discover that you bought junk and were ripped off. Since last summer alone, I recall being in coin shops in AZ and CA on 4 occasions in which collectors brought in 'rare' coins to sell, only to be told in each case that what they had were circulated/ATd/harshly cleaned/whizzed/polished (instead of nice MS coins that the sellers thought they had) and that the dealer wouldn't make any offer to buy them. I saw these coins and, after talking with their owners, estimate that they lost more than $80,000 (total).
DO NOT BUY EXPENSIVE, RAW COINS IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. And even then, be prepared to get burned on occasion.
<< <i>I have never bought a coin form Coast to Coast for this reason. I'm not going to bash his company because it is, clearly, what it is. Anyone expecting something better is a victim of his/her own greed. All have said he has honored his return policy, correct? The buyer HAS to take some responsibility in this situation.
Garrow >>
Was every coin you own bought on a "sight-seen" basis? Did you never buy a coin from someone based even partly on trust or reputation?
If we allow dealers like Coast to Coast to "interpret" industry standards to the point where they become meaningless, we all lose. How can people who claim decades of experience in numismatics represent coins as being of a certain grade when it's obvious to many other experts that they are not? One might wonder whether there's more than just "interpretation" going on, and if that were the case it would not just be a simple matter of "buyer beware."
<< <i>I don't get it. You buy a coin from a mail order company that advertises BU coins at half the market rate. When you receive the coin, you're surprised it's not uncirculated, but a dipped AU???? Now you want to complain about having to ship it back and having to eat the postage. Remember the adage, "If it looks to good to be true, it probably is." Why would you expect something different. Ken Pines is a for-profit company that won't sell you a coin at below market price. This is true of the other mail-order companies as well.
I have never bought a coin form Coast to Coast for this reason. I'm not going to bash his company because it is, clearly, what it is. Anyone expecting something better is a victim of his/her own greed. All have said he has honored his return policy, correct? The buyer HAS to take some responsibility in this situation.
Same experience here. I bought a group of IHC's from the early 1900's advertised as choice red BU. When I got them, they were all exactly the same color and luster. I took them to a local B&M dealer, and he said that the odds of 10 coins looking exactly the same were pretty remote, and that they were cleaned. He started to trash C to C and other CW advertisers who sell below market. At the time, I thought it was sour grapes because he had high retail prices and couldn't compete with the mail order places. But with experience I've come to realize that he was right.
His post talks, at length, about educating yourself about the hobby before jumping in with both feet. I cetainly wouldn't start dumping big money on illustration art without having someone knowledgeable represent me. Even though it interests me, I know almost nothing about the business. To buy some samples from a stranger isn't wise. The buyer has to take responsibility for his/her spending decisions.
We can help to educate newbies on these boards, but we cannot shelter all those who choose to spend without investigating first. With all of the information avialabe today, there's no excuse for making large purchases without some knowledge. Companies like Coast to Coast have operated for years catering to the uninformed. Why did the OP ask about C2C after he made his purchase and not before?
Can you imagine what it was like for us collectors thirty years ago before the internet and TPG services? I ususally bought my coins at large shows and at my local B&M shop.
When you get right down to it, how is what Coast to Coast does any different from what the self-slabbers on eBay do?... other than the fact that Coin World and Numismatic News cheerfully cash their checks and give them a venue to ply their trade...
I read somewhere that they buy coin dip by the barrel directly from the manufacturer. Not sure if it's true or not.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
OK, well I too have been burned by the AU/slider Unc. game some years ago, but it all balanced out in 1998 when I bought in mint capsule without flaws a Jackie R. and Smithsonian $5 unc.s for 350 - well that was from P.S., the Southern "neighbor" out of Richmond, VA area.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>I purchased a slabbed coin from them once, no problem. I would never buy a raw coin from them, or any of the other full page advertisers in CW. There are honext dealers out there, and you just have to find them. How? Talk to other people (on this forum, for example) who collect what interests you. Also, I would never buy a coin from a dealer that didn't offer a return policy.
Do they have a return policy? If so, why didn't you return the coin? >>
When I was new in the hobby, I did as you did and bought some Washington quarters from Collectors Internet (www.collectorsinternet.com) raw, that they had specifically advertised as MS66-67. They came back MS64 when I submitted them. One had a fingerprint on it.
I called them and complained. They told me that they wouldn't take them back, as I might have switched out their good one for bad ones! After a few more exchanges of this sort, they told me to to send all future communications to their attorney.
If they sell raw, I'm pretty sure these people won't take a return, either.
Needless to say, I took a bath on those and learned, as you have.
Like they say, I wished I'd asked the old timers around places like this first....
At least you're an old-timer yourself now, skipper53, with a precautionary tale for any newbies listening to you.
<< <i>I'm relatively new to coin collecting but I think I can tell the difference between a circulated and an uncirculated coin. Two years ago I bought a 1934-S Peace dollar from Coast to Coast advertised as a Gem Brilliant Uncirculated . I submitted it to PCGS and got it back graded as a AU-55. It was tough spending over $1000 for a coin i was told was uncirculated. It's even tougher getting a grading that drops the value to $500 ! Would it be best to only purchase coins that have been graded ? What a pain ! Thanks for lending an ear to a novice.. Skipper53 >>
BOUGHT FROM THEM - DARKSIDE COINS - CLEANED AU'S - NOT RECOMMENDED!!!!!!!!!!!
DORAN COINS - On Facebook, Instagram, X (formerly Twitter), & www.dorancoins.net - UPCOMING SHOWS (tentative dates)- 10/8/2023 - Fairfield, IL, 11/5/2023 - Urbana, IL., 12/3/2023 - Mattoon, IL.
What I believe would be helpful to many collectors is an editorial or article in Coin World discussing these issues of predatory coin sales from firms like C to C and PS. Many complain of HSN yet they have sporadic raw issues, more-so sales of overpriced and overgraded Modern coins that are more obvious in their deception. It is refreshing that solid firms like ModernCoinMart, Wondercoin, Notwilight, and many other predictable and reliable dealers PERSONALLY participate on this very informative/educational forum. They get my dollars. NOT Coast to Coast or Paul Sims.
Comments
I sent it back, QUICKLY, for a refund.
No more Coast to Coast. For raw, visit your dealer.
Use the BIG ad pages in Coin Mags for entertainment.
Miles
<< <i>Thought I would bring this back to light in case there are any new collectors that can benefit from this thread. >>
Thanks. I'm still a newbee and learning about dealers, etc....
We've all made mistakes, of course people like to talk about their winners more than their losers
Anyway, if that's the worst mistake you make in your collecting career you probably will end up doing well.
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
-------------------------
WS
i wonder if they will be made an example out of. they really only need a few to make a real strong statement.
<< <i>Their big ads always catch my eye in NN. Glad I haven't paid any 'tuition' to them though, thanks to the boards!! Especially since I'm still paying back my actual college loans. They would be paid off by now if I didn't buy so many damn coins
If it's any consolation, we're all paying off one thing or another...and still buyin' coins.
1 out of the 10 was AU as advertised, 2 were XF, the remainder VF or lower, and virtually all had subpar flans.
No problem getting a refund, but had to eat the shipping.
Never again.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>wel, i hope now this thread will make its way to homerun hall's attention. It should be. What abunch of crap. i wont be doing any buisness with them. period.
i wonder if they will be made an example out of. they really only need a few to make a real strong statement. >>
I'm curious...what do you expect David Hall to do, if indeed, the thread catches his attention? Your expectations of him on a company that he doesn't own, control, or possibly have any influence over?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Skipper53
Veteran
Posts: 741
Joined: May 2003
<< <i>sorry. i thought he was with pcgs, i just meant if these guys are known coin doctors, selling doctored coins as original, for profit, why wouldnt pcgs as a company go after them with the policy statements. thats all. i think i was confuused about HRH. sorry about that. >>
Because PCGS can't do anything if they aren't trying to do it to PCGS coins or coins going to PCGS.
If someone doctors a raw coin, the TPGS can't do anything if they aren't involved....
Think of it like this.....
If you do something to a build it yourself PC, do you expect Dell to be able to do anything about it?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
they buy such quanities that I believe that they don't bother to weed the crummy
ones out.
I have yet to see any real deals in their magazine mailout.
But, occassionally you will find something in the single listed coins in the back
of the mailouts. My best was a 1885-CC listed as Good and it was problem and
mark free and PCGS graded it a G-4.
I quit buying from them because I got tired of sending stuff back. On another note, anything I
sent back was immediately credited back to my CC. Never a question asked.
Best deal at C to C right now: 1955-D 25C listed as GemBU at $4.75
when they advertise a coin as BU
PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG would grade them AU55 or AU58 unless bodybagged
what is the old saying?
...there is no Santa Claus in numismatics
So, if it is claimed to be Unc. and it is not holdered, it is probably because they know it is problematic and will not holder. In today's age of TPGraded coins, those who sell Unc's raw are gaming the last of the naive buyers IMO.
Tyler
<< <i>They are old school dealers; sell it raw and grade it according to their very optimistic standards. Jake's marketplace, Miller's mint and others are of this same vein. Maybe you get an Unc., maybe you get a AU for Unc. price. You are rolling the dice. However, as easy as it is to slab a coin and market it for the true market price that holdering gives you, it seems logical to holder a coin to maximize profits.
So, if it is claimed to be Unc. and it is not holdered, it is probably because they know it is problematic and will not holder. In today's age of TPGraded coins, those who sell Unc's raw are gaming the last of the naive buyers IMO.
Tyler >>
You forgot Mount Vernon Coin
<< <i>They are old school dealers; sell it raw and grade it according to their very optimistic standards. Jake's marketplace, Miller's mint and others are of this same vein. Maybe you get an Unc., maybe you get a AU for Unc. price. You are rolling the dice. However, as easy as it is to slab a coin and market it for the true market price that holdering gives you, it seems logical to holder a coin to maximize profits.
So, if it is claimed to be Unc. and it is not holdered, it is probably because they know it is problematic and will not holder. In today's age of TPGraded coins, those who sell Unc's raw are gaming the last of the naive buyers IMO.
Tyler >>
I've bot raw coins that have definitely been BU64-65s when stated BU in the ad on ebay and elsewhere. But you're right, it's a coin toss or crap shot. Return policies offer an out, too.
<< <i>They're "legit" enough to have a two page ad in every Numismatic News. >>
Legit has nothing to do with it. The only thing the pubs that take their ads care about is if the check clears.
<< <i>
<< <i>They're "legit" enough to have a two page ad in every Numismatic News. >>
Legit has nothing to do with it. The only thing the pubs that take their ads care about is if the check clears. >>
Of that I'm very aware. I was merely answering his initial question.
I have had no luck really buying raw coins from the big advertised dealers in the coin pubs.. returned most. Mainly by certified pcgs or ncg, not that i havnt been disappointed with a few of those. cheers all.
coinsarefun, marmac, LindeDad, andree, robkool, TwoSides2aCoin, waterzooey, agentjim007
All were A++++ Transactions- Thank you !
<< <i>Hi.. bought a 1909s vdb from them.. raw, advertised as AU, received the coin and it was wizzed beyond belief...returned it.
I have had no luck really buying raw coins from the big advertised dealers in the coin pubs.. returned most. Mainly by certified pcgs or ncg, not that i havnt been disappointed with a few of those. cheers all. >>
Welcome, wil2008!
Buying from Ken Pines / Coast to Coast is only worthwhile if you are a major shareholder in a dividend-paying shipping company. And I doubt that David Hall will do a thing about them.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>The real question is when will Coin World show some courage and act against them for false advertising? I would be happy to provide an example of Coast to Coast's numismatic expertise
When they tell you that they use their own interpretation of grading standards, and they are not members of the ANA, it's buyer beware.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
For example:
A couple of years ago, there was an ad in the classifieds of our local paper for a coin collection for sale, specifically saying No Dealers. The phone number was a nearby exchange, so I called. Turned out to be an old-tiimer, and we got together at the community center of his condo development. He had quite a few albums full of coins and 2x2's, as well. 90% of the coins were cleaned, some of them obvious from across the room, like pink IHCs. I asked him if he cleaned any of them and he said, "no, you should never clean coins." So, he knew cleaning was bad, but had no idea how to recognize it. The No Dealers in his ad was because he took his collection to a local few dealers and they offered him 5-10% of what he thought the coins were worth. I thanked him for his time, and simply said these weren't the type of coins that interested me.
A lesson learned. Never, ever will I buy a coin from CC again.
I have never bought a coin form Coast to Coast for this reason. I'm not going to bash his company because it is, clearly, what it is. Anyone expecting something better is a victim of his/her own greed. All have said he has honored his return policy, correct? The buyer HAS to take some responsibility in this situation.
Garrow
<< <i>I I'm not going to bash his company because it is, clearly, what it is. Anyone expecting something better is a victim of his/her own greed. All have said he has honored his return policy, correct? The buyer HAS to take some responsibility in this situation. >>
Unfortunately, companies like this prey upon the unknowledgeable even more so than on the greedy. It's taken me decades to amass the paltry numismatic knowledge that I possess. Many people new to collecting don't truly understand that the adage "you get what you pay for" applies to coins as well. They learn the lesson eventually, but by that time it's often too late and the result is that collectors stop collecting in disgust because they don't think they can trust any dealer to be honest about the quality of their wares.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
A few months passed, and I thought I would take a shot on a few Lincolns (1911-S and 1931-S). When asked if I had ordered with them before, and told them I had, my account was pulled up, and at that moment, was told (not verbatim, but pretty damn close) that they would no longer accept my business because I was too picky/particular. As someone spending decent money on coins, I feel I SHOULD be picky.....I simply used their return option.
There is only one other advertiser in NN and CW that I have bought raw from, and, guess what? Same thing....I wont divulge the name, but the initials are P.S., and they are located just a bit south of Coast to Coast. After my experience with those two 'dealers', I would never buy another raw coin unless it was in my hand, with a loupe, and I knew exactly what to look for, because I took my time and read up on the series. It's sad because if you really look at it objectively, take those kinds of dealers advertisements out of NN and CW, each issue would be about 50% smaller than they actually are.
To see what responsibilities CW takes, simply go to page 125 of the Feb 11th issue. The last section, 'Coin grading and description' states at a MINIMUM, coins advertised for sale must meet 'Photograde', 'The ANA grading standard for US coins', 'The Numismatic certification Institute Grading Guide', and 'A guide to the grading of US coins'. Funny thing is, the section states not all are needed to be adhered to, and also, "Advertisers using any one of the standard methods need to make reference to the grading method(s) used in the ads". Coast to Coast's policy, while adhering to CW's rules, and I quote, "All items graded by Photograde & our interpretation of industry standards." If they are interpreting whizzed, scratched, EF/AU coins, being advertised as BU, this hobby is going to go straight down the tubes. Oh, and if you catch Robert Charles ad on page 35 of the Feb 11th issue of CW, while they are authorized NGC, PCGS dealers, a member of the ANA, they STILL do not state what reference they use, and they SHOULD because they DO, in fact, sell raw coins/currency. In closing, I guess BU has a different meaning in those that 'interpret industry standards'...and more than one advertiser uses that same term, worded slightly differently.
STAY AWAY FROM THESE GUYS
One respondent said that 'you get what you pay for' in buying coins. That's far too generous---you only get what you pay for IF you really know what the he!! you're doing. The primary lesson here is: do not buy raw coins from a dealer whom you don't already know and trust. Second lesson: learn to grade, or at least promptly show your new purchases to others for their opinions. Don't wait to do this until you decide to sell, frequently many years later, and then discover that you bought junk and were ripped off. Since last summer alone, I recall being in coin shops in AZ and CA on 4 occasions in which collectors brought in 'rare' coins to sell, only to be told in each case that what they had were circulated/ATd/harshly cleaned/whizzed/polished (instead of nice MS coins that the sellers thought they had) and that the dealer wouldn't make any offer to buy them. I saw these coins and, after talking with their owners, estimate that they lost more than $80,000 (total).
DO NOT BUY EXPENSIVE, RAW COINS IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. And even then, be prepared to get burned on occasion.
<< <i>I have never bought a coin form Coast to Coast for this reason. I'm not going to bash his company because it is, clearly, what it is. Anyone expecting something better is a victim of his/her own greed. All have said he has honored his return policy, correct? The buyer HAS to take some responsibility in this situation.
Garrow >>
Was every coin you own bought on a "sight-seen" basis? Did you never buy a coin from someone based even partly on trust or reputation?
If we allow dealers like Coast to Coast to "interpret" industry standards to the point where they become meaningless, we all lose. How can people who claim decades of experience in numismatics represent coins as being of a certain grade when it's obvious to many other experts that they are not? One might wonder whether there's more than just "interpretation" going on, and if that were the case it would not just be a simple matter of "buyer beware."
<< <i>I don't get it. You buy a coin from a mail order company that advertises BU coins at half the market rate. When you receive the coin, you're surprised it's not uncirculated, but a dipped AU???? Now you want to complain about having to ship it back and having to eat the postage. Remember the adage, "If it looks to good to be true, it probably is." Why would you expect something different. Ken Pines is a for-profit company that won't sell you a coin at below market price. This is true of the other mail-order companies as well.
I have never bought a coin form Coast to Coast for this reason. I'm not going to bash his company because it is, clearly, what it is. Anyone expecting something better is a victim of his/her own greed. All have said he has honored his return policy, correct? The buyer HAS to take some responsibility in this situation.
Garrow >>
Read Barry's post.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
His post talks, at length, about educating yourself about the hobby before jumping in with both feet. I cetainly wouldn't start dumping big money on illustration art without having someone knowledgeable represent me. Even though it interests me, I know almost nothing about the business. To buy some samples from a stranger isn't wise. The buyer has to take responsibility for his/her spending decisions.
We can help to educate newbies on these boards, but we cannot shelter all those who choose to spend without investigating first. With all of the information avialabe today, there's no excuse for making large purchases without some knowledge. Companies like Coast to Coast have operated for years catering to the uninformed. Why did the OP ask about C2C after he made his purchase and not before?
Can you imagine what it was like for us collectors thirty years ago before the internet and TPG services? I ususally bought my coins at large shows and at my local B&M shop.
Garrow
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
impression I get is that CC DOES NOT whizz stuff. Instead they by other dealers problems at
huge discounts and then mix in really common coins (think 1922-23-24 MS63 Peace Dollars) from
wholesaled rolls, and place large orders from bid outfits for AU55-58's. All their stuff is then dipped
twice--first with a tough agent that strips everything, then a version of MS70 to give that
super oil-like, vasoline shine so prized by newbees!
<< <i>I have met some of their employees here and actually the
impression I get is that CC DOES NOT whizz stuff. Instead they by other dealers problems at
huge discounts and then mix in really common coins (think 1922-23-24 MS63 Peace Dollars) from
wholesaled rolls, and place large orders from bid outfits for AU55-58's. All their stuff is then dipped
twice--first with a tough agent that strips everything, then a version of MS70 to give that
super oil-like, vasoline shine so prized by newbees!
If true, that implies a deliberate intent to deceive consumers, which is illegal under Maryland law.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>I purchased a slabbed coin from them once, no problem. I would never buy a raw coin from them, or any of the other full page advertisers in CW. There are honext dealers out there, and you just have to find them. How? Talk to other people (on this forum, for example) who collect what interests you. Also, I would never buy a coin from a dealer that didn't offer a return policy.
Do they have a return policy? If so, why didn't you return the coin? >>
When I was new in the hobby, I did as you did and bought some Washington quarters from Collectors Internet (www.collectorsinternet.com) raw, that they had specifically advertised as MS66-67. They came back MS64 when I submitted them. One had a fingerprint on it.
I called them and complained. They told me that they wouldn't take them back, as I might have switched out their good one for bad ones! After a few more exchanges of this sort, they told me to to send all future communications to their attorney.
If they sell raw, I'm pretty sure these people won't take a return, either.
Needless to say, I took a bath on those and learned, as you have.
Like they say, I wished I'd asked the old timers around places like this first....
At least you're an old-timer yourself now, skipper53, with a precautionary tale for any newbies listening to you.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
<< <i>I'm relatively new to coin collecting but I think I can tell the difference between a circulated and an
uncirculated coin. Two years ago I bought a 1934-S Peace dollar from Coast to Coast advertised as
a Gem Brilliant Uncirculated . I submitted it to PCGS and got it back graded as a AU-55. It was tough
spending over $1000 for a coin i was told was uncirculated. It's even tougher getting a grading that
drops the value to $500 ! Would it be best to only purchase coins that have been graded ?
What a pain ! Thanks for lending an ear to a novice..
Skipper53 >>
BOUGHT FROM THEM - DARKSIDE COINS - CLEANED AU'S - NOT RECOMMENDED!!!!!!!!!!!
Many complain of HSN yet they have sporadic raw issues, more-so sales of overpriced and overgraded Modern coins that are more obvious in their deception.
It is refreshing that solid firms like ModernCoinMart, Wondercoin, Notwilight, and many other predictable and reliable dealers PERSONALLY participate on this very informative/educational forum.
They get my dollars. NOT Coast to Coast or Paul Sims.
Miles