Any closure to PCGS's $50,000 reward to find a solution to ASE milk spotting?

jessewvu · January 26, 2008 11:55AM

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It would be nice if PCGS let us know how it was going, if there is any hope of finding a solution.

percyb · January 26, 2008 1:42PM

Wouldn't you think a Chemical Engineer could solve the riddle?

StampAlarm · January 26, 2008 1:43PM

What about the Eagles minted at WestPoint? Do they spot?

notwilight · January 26, 2008 1:44PM

I have a very senior metalurgist working on it. --Jerry

ahooka454 · January 26, 2008 1:49PM

if anyone has a ase with said spots and would like to sell one in the name of science to me, pm me.

BAJJERFAN · January 26, 2008 2:16PM

<< if anyone has a ase with said spots and would like to sell one in the name of science to me, pm me. >>

Whatchya gonna do with it?

BAJJERFAN · January 26, 2008 2:17PM

Unless one has full knowledge of the process from start to finish, it will be a difficult solution.

ahooka454 · January 26, 2008 2:21PM

not sure. a fellow boater i hang with at the marina in the summer was a chemical engineer for our goverment and then a major oil company. figured why not give it a shot. you cant win unless your in the game.

BAJJERFAN · January 26, 2008 2:53PM

I'm in the game but the info seems to be slow in coming.

rbalderman1 · January 26, 2008 2:55PM

ahooka tell him thier $10 gran if he finds a solution:&lt

ahooka454 · January 26, 2008 3:01PM

ill give him $25 if he really does it.

dcarr · January 26, 2008 3:03PM

I still haven't seen any clarification of what "solution" would qualify for the reward.

On one hand, it sounds like the solution must be a way to remove existing milk spots from the coins.
On the other hand, it sounds like maybe the solution they are looking for is a way to prevent the spots from forming in the first place.

The two are vastly different problems.
Why hasn't PCGS posted any official guidelines on this whole affair ?

Broadstruck · January 26, 2008 3:13PM

rbalderman1 · January 26, 2008 3:15PM

ahooka, how funny would that be if you gave him $25, and he then saw you on TV or newspaper with a 50 g check. That would be hilarous!!

BAJJERFAN · January 26, 2008 3:15PM

<< I still haven't seen any clarification of what "solution" would qualify for the reward.

On one hand, it sounds like the solution must be a way to remove existing milk spots from the coins.
On the other hand, it sounds like maybe the solution they are looking for is a way to prevent the spots from forming in the first place.

The two are vastly different problems.
Why hasn't PCGS posted any official guidelines on this whole affair ? >>

I believe that it is known that dipping unspotted coins in something like EZest will prevent spot formation on both the UNC and proof versions; or at least some folks think this to be true. Removing the spots from already infected UNC coins apparently does not work using the conventional dipping methods available. I'd guess that a solution would most probably be a "from now on" kind of thing, and the solution that PCGS is looking for most likely involves getting problem free stuff right from the mint with no post-mint intervention on their part. As I said before a solution to the problem must account for the fact that some spot and others don't. The fact that some spot and some don't would lead one to believe that whatever the problem is, it must recur on a periodic basis and not be omni-present nor omni-absent which it obviously isn't.

fastrudy · January 26, 2008 3:17PM

Agree with dcarr. The mint should be interested in preventing the problem(but what do THEY care?). PCGS should be interested of how to alleviate the problem. That, IMHO, is what PCGS is after. It would be nice to have clarification.

ahooka454 · January 26, 2008 3:17PM

$25k

rbalderman1 · January 26, 2008 3:21PM

Oh,lol..

Couldn't a scientist or chemist watch the process at the mint nf find out very easily, exactly what is causing the problem?? Does anyone think that the temperature has to do with the spots????

BAJJERFAN · January 26, 2008 3:23PM

So now we are up to $75K?

LostSisler · January 26, 2008 3:29PM

There are some problems with this;
Anyone who's ever minted will tell you that, when there's spots on the planchets, you position that planchet (whenever possible) so that it lies within the area that will be struck into the relief of the coin.
This is so that the "milk spot" will not be visible in the struck coin and because the minter already knows that you can't clean the darned thing off. (YOU CAN completely, but only if you take the time to clean that planchet before you strike it!)
Why?
Imagine, if you will, a "milk spot". It's on the cleaned beautiful shiny surface on a planchet prepaired for proof coinage. It's there because the clothes-detergent-like powder that is used to clean the planchets (with water) was not mixed properly before having the planchets added to the solution. IE there was too much powder for the mixture and when the planchets are layed out to dry, the spots dry onto their surfaces.
When you strike something like that, the mirrored fields of the die impress the dry "milk spots" into the surface of the coin. Technically, you CAN clean the spots off! But what remains is the impression of the dry detergent into the surface of the coin! You'll never get that off! (without BUFFING it!).
Small minting company's get past the "milk spot" problem by sandblasting the problematic coins and selling them as "sandblast proofs". Of course the US Mint would NEVER do this! (SEE Hawaii Commems!).

So...
Where's my $50k?
You know where to contact me... :-)

By the way, with "unc" coins (IE Sandbasted dies) the "spots" may not be immediately apparent or apparent under certain lighting conditions.
In addition, this is really a cleaning agent that is in "intimate" contact with the surface of a coin for an extended period of time. You take one of these coins with reactant chemicals on its' surface then stick it into the micro-environment that is a slab, and you won't get favorable results, ever.

BAJJERFAN · January 26, 2008 3:39PM

If what you say is true then the residue causing the spots should be easily soluble and washed off of the planchets with warm pure distilled water before they are struck. The spots appear to need to be activated by something in order to appear; maybe something like heat and or humidity. Why is it that the spotting seems to be exclusively a problem with the ASEs and not the lower mintage commems.

LostSisler · January 26, 2008 3:48PM

<< If what you say is true then the residue causing the spots should be easily soluble and washed off of the planchets with warm pure distilled water before they are struck. The spots appear to need to be activated by something in order to appear; maybe something like heat and or humidity. Why is it that the spotting seems to be exclusively a problem with the ASEs and not the lower mintage commems. >>

Because the mint considers the "unc" ASE's bullion! They spend more time and energy on the lower mintage strikes, IE cleaning their blanks properly. In addition, I would not be at-all surprised if they were setting the "milk-spot" planchets aside while striking the more important coins so that they can be used later for the bullion coins.
If you have a nicely-prepared proof die in front of you you do not want to get it dirty by striking a dirty planchet with it! It may transfer some of the spots to the coins that follow and the die is a bear to clean while inside the chamber.
You cannot clean spotted blanks by simply putting them back into the cleaning process. That cleaning agent is dried onto the surface of that planchet, the only way to get it off at this point, is to do it by hand (actually rubbing it).
You can imagine thousands of these spotted planchets piling up, but to clean them properly, would take too much time.
Sunshine minting makes blanks/planchets for many of the minting operations in North America. I would suggest asking the guys there, that deal with this problem on a daily basis, their "solutions" to this problem.
I'm certain you will hear the same response from them.

BAJJERFAN · January 26, 2008 4:21PM

As fast as they must run them through its hard to imagine any kind of visual inspection of the planchets to remove those already spotted, they do more than 5 million a year which even at that level would be 100,000 per week. I'd guess too that the entire 20 coins in a roll of ASEs all came from one single lot which were either all washed properly or none were; so its hard to explain 2 or 3 spotted coins out of a roll of 20. Further your explanation fails to account for the spotting after the coins are struck.; so at some point the coins/planchets must appear to be clean only to turn later. The spots are round so they are likely of a water-borne origin. Whatever is causing them dries invisibly only to be activated at a later date.

LostSisler · January 26, 2008 5:18PM

<< As fast as they must run them through its hard to imagine any kind of visual inspection of the planchets to remove those already spotted, they do more than 5 million a year which even at that level would be 100,000 per week. I'd guess too that the entire 20 coins in a roll of ASEs all came from one single lot which were either all washed properly or none were; so its hard to explain 2 or 3 spotted coins out of a roll of 20. Further your explanation fails to account for the spotting after the coins are struck.; so at some point the coins/planchets must appear to be clean only to turn later. The spots are round so they are likely of a water-borne origin. Whatever is causing them dries invisibly only to be activated at a later date. >>

I've minted for five years and I often found that you really never know when the spotted planchest will pop-up.
They are cleaned in another facility, put into the rolls in preparation for striking from a large pile of other blanks. Some will be dirty, some will be clean.
It takes just a moment to set-aside a dirty planchet, it takes much longer to clean the dies and, as I stated before, on a sand-blasted (matte) die, it really doesn't matter if you use a dirty planchet (sure you will have to clean the die eventually, but it will not be immediately apparent, as when you are using a proof "shiny" die.)

BAJJERFAN · January 26, 2008 11:00PM

Do you know exactly what the U.S. Mint uses or how they do it? It would seem to be common sensical to make sure that all powder in the washing solution <<"It's there because the clothes-detergent-like powder that is used to clean the planchets (with water) was not mixed properly before having the planchets added to the solution. IE there was too much powder for the mixture and when the planchets are layed out to dry, the spots dry onto their surfaces.">> IS DISSOLVED BEFORE it ever gets to the planchets OR if there is ANY DOUBT that the planchets be given extra rinse. I belive this could be restated as "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" or "do it right the first time".

I don't doubt that what you say is true since you say you worked in a minting facility and I confess/admit that I have not, but the fact that this spotting occurs to clean looking coins AFTER they have been slabbed would lead the astute observer to conclude that there is a problem somewhere other than what you describe.

LostSisler · January 27, 2008 10:54AM

The best I can do is say that the powder that's used is like laundry detergent. There is an actual sample of this material at the ANA on loan to us from the US Mint that I may be able to grab a photo of. Actually opening it for any type of chemical analysis is probably out of the question.

To add more information to the equation;
When the planchets are finished being cleaned they are poured out onto a large table with soft towels on it. They are then spread out and pat-dried (by hand).
Of course some of these are missed and, as explained before, it depends on the lighting and the actual concentration of detergent in the mixture.

ricko · January 27, 2008 11:10AM

Very interesting.. we may actually be gaining some useful information... which, when expanded upon, could lead to corrective action. Cheers, RickO

cullenbryant · January 27, 2008 11:28AM

very interesting lostsisler, thanks for posting it.

cullenbryant · January 27, 2008 11:35AM

i suppose modern commemoratives are less likely to have milk spotting because of the extra
care in hand buffing the blanks?

57loaded · January 27, 2008 11:43AM

i have even had spots happen AFTER a "fix" on proofs from PCGS...like open the blue box and the coins are worse than when they were sent back in the first place. i dunno if that is a QC problem or because the coins were sitting there for over three months...cracked and used for air hockey, maybe, even the rim on one was going south after a return visit to PCGS.

so the problem may begin at the mint and precipitate at TPG.

i have seen a few MS coins spot in mint capsules, too

LostSisler · January 27, 2008 1:31PM

BUMP!

BAJJERFAN · January 27, 2008 2:18PM

<< BUMP! >>

Did you work for the U.S. Mint?
Did you work in the ASE manufacturing section?
Does the Mint outsource the planchets for the ASEs?
What is the purpose of the dissolved powder washing step?
Can you describe the ASE minting process from start to finish?

LostSisler · January 28, 2008 1:47PM

Did you work for the U.S. Mint? No, I worked for a large private mint :-)
Did you work in the ASE manufacturing section? I worked with the same exact blanks made by the same exact people.
Does the Mint outsource the planchets for the ASEs? Yes.
What is the purpose of the dissolved powder washing step? To clean off the medal fragments/dust from the beading process.
Can you describe the ASE minting process from start to finish? I could, but why? The question here is about "milk spots".

Oh, here's a pic as I promised before of the actual "detergent" used to clean ASE planchets and others.

I did open the bag and there was no smell whatsoever and no eye irritation. Tasting it was out of the question :-)
The bag's about five inches long and light as a feather.

The Picture at Photobucket

Coxe · January 28, 2008 1:56PM

I didn't realize this only affected ASEs, at least is pervasiveamong them, contrary to their silver commemoratives. Interesting. And it seems to take no preference for one date over another too, right?

BTW, In two rolls of '95 UNC ASEs, I only had 2 spotted. And they were in the Mint tubes since day 1 until late last year (Nov or Dec) when I checked on them. Not much humidity along the San Diego coast and they were sealed pretty well. It might be just like carbon sptos and that copper toning of old gold. It just happens and is common among them due to careless planchet preparation as someone suggested.

Griv · January 28, 2008 1:58PM

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell everyone, I resolved it and it turned out to be no big deal. It seems President Bush authorized a team with Congressional approval to look into this and after 7 years it has been determined to be an Al NGCS plot. Their first plan was to light off a dirty bomb in Newport Beach but it was determined that it wouldn't really have any effect. The next plan is to reduce the cost of gold such that every PCGS submission is able to skip the $30 submission fee to the $15 submission fee and then and only then will we be able to live as free men. Particularly if our wives say it's okay.

Coxe · January 28, 2008 2:20PM

Also noticed the milk spots tone first, much sooner than the rest of the surface. They are more susceptable to oxidation. The spotting is possibly just the initial stage of oxidation or reactivity. At some point the thin film forms. Nothing interesting yet, just a golden hue; looks fairly uniform.

LostSisler · January 28, 2008 3:18PM

Bump!

BAJJERFAN · January 29, 2008 7:28AM

Any idea how much heat and pressure is generated when a coin is sturck from a planchet?

LostSisler · January 29, 2008 12:59PM

Striking silver 1oz rounds for hours on-end at about 300 tons per strike doesn't produce a lot of heat.
The metal around the dies, and the dies them selfs, become a little warm but that is it.

COINB0Y · January 29, 2008 1:17PM

One of the Best Threads I've read in a long time!

Thanks guys!

Morganmanic · January 29, 2008 1:20PM

I am just throwing this out there. I am not a metal person nor am I someone who knows a lot about minting. However, I do know something about sound and I was wondering if it is possible that the sonic sealing of the slab might somehow bring this washing powder which might(before the slabbing process) be across the coin in a very small layer(microscopic) but not thick enough to show up as milk spots. However, after sealing the slab the sound vibrates (lack of better word) the powder into small areas on the surface of the coin. Over time the white powder will show up either through a reaction with the silver or with the plactic slab. Now you have a coin that has all this fine white powder pooled into low spots on the coin.

Then again what the heck do I know

LostSisler · January 29, 2008 2:17PM

One could imagine a fine layer of this stuff, again microscopic, remaining on the surface of the coin no matter how clean it was.
Then you'll need to think about how metal flows from the center of the planchet out towards the collar. You could surmise that this remaining residue would then collect in certain spots of the effected coins design.
BUT; many of these ASE's get these spots regardless of slabbing.
Suspecting the slabs may be in error due to the fact that so many of these show up having never been slabbed.

Morganmanic · January 29, 2008 2:24PM

see what did I tell you I know nothing

I have not heard of milk spots on raw ASE but I am not that up to speed on this issue. It was just a random thought

Thanks for not tearing me apart

<------Is for me

LostSisler · January 29, 2008 2:30PM

You could still be rite...
The slabbing and sonic sealing may be partially to blame for the spots that don't show-up until after slabbing.
If you're a dealer, preparing an order for your coins to be slabbed, you won't send the coins that are already spotted, you'll send the clean ones.
If the sonic sealing concentrates the powder even further, then the slab itself creates the rite environment, it may lead to the spots becoming visible and causing measurable damage to the surface of the coin.

BY THE WAY;
In my experience...
If you've just struck a coin you can sometimes, depending on the severity, use a jewelers high-pressure steam cleaner to get the spot(s) off.
I do not know if this will work with a coin that has had the spot on it for an extended period of time. (And I don't recommend this nor am I in any way to blame if you try it!)
And; the trick is to get the spot off, then evenly heat the coin until the steam water beading is rolling rite off the edge of the coin. This means the coin is at the correct temperature to keep water spots from forming on it when you remove it from the steam.

BAJJERFAN · January 29, 2008 9:57PM

<< Striking silver 1oz rounds for hours on-end at about 300 tons per strike doesn't produce a lot of heat.
The metal around the dies, and the dies them selfs, become a little warm but that is it. >>

So the moving of metal during the striking process does not produce heat to the point where the struck coin is hot to the touch?

ricko · January 29, 2008 11:26PM

This is very interesting... thank you LostSister for your inputs. As I have said before - and the information here makes it obvious, if a milk-spotted silver eagle were subjected to an Atomic Absorption analysis - it would confirm the content of the 'white' contamination - thereby, perhaps, verifying the detergent presence. Cheers, RickO

BAJJERFAN · January 30, 2008 12:57AM

If only it was THAT easy. The planchets are supposed to be rinsed after being washed with this stuff just like your clothes are. I suppose a few get poorly washed, but I wouldn't think it would be very many. I'd guess that the mint may be interested in solving this as well, but are probably as perplexed as anyone else about now.

LostSisler · February 1, 2008 4:26PM

I'm working on getting some images of milk-spotted blanks to show here. I'll keep you posted.

morgannut2 · February 1, 2008 7:07PM

<< If only it was THAT easy. The planchets are supposed to be rinsed after being washed with this stuff just like your clothes are. I suppose a few get poorly washed, but I wouldn't think it would be very many. I'd guess that the mint may be interested in solving this as well, but are probably as perplexed as anyone else about now. >>

====
Interesting and informed discussion here.

I would like to add that other Series proofs have had milky

toning but not in the form of fluid shaped oviod condensation droplets.

The 1974 proof Ikes for example developed identically colored broadly

dispersed milky areas in the fields, but in some cases and others not.

And like ASE's they were not removable.

Further a number of Morgan $ researchers have suggested, that the type

and vibrancy of rainbow (or just plain ugly dispersed brown YUK color!) is partly predetermined by mint

location and date of the blanks made there

reflecting local variations in different blank preparation, acid dip, base dip, and sometimes

incomplete rinsing a Non-Neutral solution not at about PH 7 ..

By example, the famous circulation business strike prooflike 1891CC #1 of Eliasburg had the milky fields that easilycleared at NCS;

resulting in upgrade from MS66 to MS68PL. But conversely, on some Morgan proofs the milky fields will not

go away no matter what is tried. Be it the blank differences or surface chemistry, you'd think cloudy

PL fields would be the same in both types of issue and present in both

proofs and business strikes ( from Philadelphia )equally---Or were proofs getting different strike

pressures/stamping numbers, essentially embedding chemicals OR causing high pressure-low temperature

chemical new compounds to imbed in the Proofs but not the business prooflikes and Deep mirror proofkes????

----------

Regardless of what is done to solve this problem, the theme seems to be this:

A blank prep problem with a number of bad---and somes good (mint bag toned 19th Century Silver)-

suggests there are unknown variables that seem to present much more commonly on proofs.

But the data and basis to maybe fix these

concerns perhaps can only be resolved by the mint providing detailed metalurgy & chemical data from it's

contractor and it's prestrike treatment of blanks plus firm striking data.

If the Mint isn't saying--- a Freedom of Information Act Request my get at least some solid data.

I hope there will more info with more details. data and info.

LostSisler · February 2, 2008 5:53AM

Yesterday I was told that the mint made, prepped and cleaned their own blanks in 1986 and 7, can any of you verify that?
If so, the cleaning powder I showed earlier may be irrelevant as it was loaned to the ANA in 1986 (will verify on Monday).

Any closure to PCGS's $50,000 reward to find a solution to ASE milk spotting?

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