Question about the PCGS buyback guarantee
gecko109
Posts: 8,231 ✭
With the heated debates following both of the top TPG's announcements on coin doctoring, Im curious as to how PCGS determines the value on a piece it has to buyback. From the PCGS website:
"If the grade determined under such "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures is lower than the grade originally assigned to the coin, or if the coin is found to be misattributed, non-authentic, PCGS shall pay the current market value for the coin in question at the originally assigned grade, or at the owner of the coin's option, the difference between the current market value for the coin in question at the newly established grade and the current market value of the coin in question at the grade originally assigned. PCGS will also refund the regrading fee and postage and insurance costs incurred by the coin owner in sending the coin to PCGS. It is understood that PCGS will be the sole determiner of the current market value of the coin and that current market value is defined as dealer replacement value, i.e. the price a dealer would most likely have to pay to replace the coin."
This seems like an easy way to determine value on an added MM coin for example, but what about wild toners that often sell for 3x or more of what current priceguides list for the same coin in blast white? Will PCGS take into consideration the actual price that a customer may have paid for a crazy toner that is later to be determined obvious AT? Lets take an MS69 common date ASE as an example. Maybe a $40 coin tops without color. Lets say I bought one at a show or auction for $200 because I loved the colors. After passing the coin around to some other dealers, and collectors, the concensus is that the colors were produced chemically. Does PCGS cut me a check for $40, $200, or somewhere in between at their sole discretion?
"If the grade determined under such "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures is lower than the grade originally assigned to the coin, or if the coin is found to be misattributed, non-authentic, PCGS shall pay the current market value for the coin in question at the originally assigned grade, or at the owner of the coin's option, the difference between the current market value for the coin in question at the newly established grade and the current market value of the coin in question at the grade originally assigned. PCGS will also refund the regrading fee and postage and insurance costs incurred by the coin owner in sending the coin to PCGS. It is understood that PCGS will be the sole determiner of the current market value of the coin and that current market value is defined as dealer replacement value, i.e. the price a dealer would most likely have to pay to replace the coin."
This seems like an easy way to determine value on an added MM coin for example, but what about wild toners that often sell for 3x or more of what current priceguides list for the same coin in blast white? Will PCGS take into consideration the actual price that a customer may have paid for a crazy toner that is later to be determined obvious AT? Lets take an MS69 common date ASE as an example. Maybe a $40 coin tops without color. Lets say I bought one at a show or auction for $200 because I loved the colors. After passing the coin around to some other dealers, and collectors, the concensus is that the colors were produced chemically. Does PCGS cut me a check for $40, $200, or somewhere in between at their sole discretion?
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However, once their offer is made to you, you can always counter their offer which may or may not be accepted.
Remember that "current market value" is not determined by one individual sale. So if you purchased a wildly toned Sae FOR $200, I'm thinking you'd be taking a $160 gamble.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>is there fair market value what is on their pricing section? >>
I seriously dont think so. I have yet to buy a single coin that cost me as much, or more than the PCGS website price guide. On average, depending on series, they seem to be about 20% too high.
Edited to add: Thats not totally true. I did recently buy a 1795 flowing half in PCGS VG8 for $1625. Their price guide lists G4 at $750, and F12 at $2250, splitting the difference gives me about $1,500 on a VG8.
Steve
just takes a forever and a day from returning the coins to getting a check...or the coins back (which in my case should have been ALL been bought back).
if it's anything ASE take the money and pray that the proofs or RP's you sent in can't be "fixed" even if they are "fixed" they can turn sour again, just as fast as you can say "got milk?"
there is little if any QC in this process from my experience for the ASE milk spot "Presidential Review"
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The dealer took the offer and now submits all his coins to NGC because in his mind, PCGS didn't stand behind the grade guarantee at all.
<< <i>About a year and a half ago I had a dealer buddy of mine that had a 71 NO S Jeff, graded PCGS 67DCAM. It had grown a case of spots! Sent it in and PCGS offered $1000 to by the coin back. The PCGS price guide showed the coin at $1450 and the dealer paid $1300 for the coin. I explained to PCGS that the dealer paid $1300 and the response was that is the offer, take it or leave it.
The dealer took the offer and now submits all his coins to NGC because in his mind, PCGS didn't stand behind the grade guarantee at all. >>
As I said Marty, "However, once their offer is made to you, you can always counter their offer which may or may not be accepted."
Market Value is in the eye of the individual buying the coin and yes I've had a similar situation occur but I think PCGS was fair in their offer.
Milk spots on a Jefferson?
The name is LEE!
just wondering, if you decide on another coin instead of a buy back........................where the heck do the coins come from? do they have a room full just in case?
Do you think your dealer friend overpaid at $1300? Did he buy the coin or the holder? What do YOU think the right price should have been on the coin (not what PCGS offered but the right price on the coin itself)?
I can see where PCGS wouldn't want to pay based on people overpaying for something....imagine 2 bidiots going after a coin and running it up way past actual value. Then, for some reason, something goes on with the coin and PCGS should take it off the market. Should PCGS pay what comparables go for or should they pay what the bidiot paid?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
unless something happens to the color - like retract into a blob
so does not matter
<< <i>Marty,
Do you think your dealer friend overpaid at $1300? Did he buy the coin or the holder? What do YOU think the right price should have been on the coin (not what PCGS offered but the right price on the coin itself)?
I can see where PCGS wouldn't want to pay based on people overpaying for something....imagine 2 bidiots going after a coin and running it up way past actual value. Then, for some reason, something goes on with the coin and PCGS should take it off the market. Should PCGS pay what comparables go for or should they pay what the bidiot paid? >>
They really are quite fair in my opinion. They take into account their price guide value, recent auction prices AND the price you paid for the coin and come to a fair value with you. The bad stories we hear usually come from the guys who use and abuse this guarantee. I know many such people who buy dogs cheaply and then send them in looking for a windfall. After a few times, I'd get upset, too.
<< <i>you are never going to get a TPG to admit that a coin they graded is now AT
unless something happens to the color - like retract into a blob
so does not matter >>
Are you sure? I seem to recall a peace dollar, that was the subject of a long thread a while back, that was bought back. I do not think the problem was the assigned grade.
<< <i>what ever the $$ is, it has been more than equitable, at least for me. >>
Ditto. In fact, they've over-paid me a couple of times.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>On average, depending on series, they seem to be about 20% too high. >>
That's true most of the time. However, when I was shopping around for an AU58 Trade Dollar type coin, their price guide was saying something like $300 or something. Nobody gets those that cheap! Of course, since then, they have raised the price in the price guide for those.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>Marty,
Do you think your dealer friend overpaid at $1300? Did he buy the coin or the holder? What do YOU think the right price should have been on the coin (not what PCGS offered but the right price on the coin itself)?
I can see where PCGS wouldn't want to pay based on people overpaying for something....imagine 2 bidiots going after a coin and running it up way past actual value. Then, for some reason, something goes on with the coin and PCGS should take it off the market. Should PCGS pay what comparables go for or should they pay what the bidiot paid? >>
He may have overpaid for the coin, I have never bought one myself. But he would spend more than triple that every month on grading fees. Seems it would have been better for PCGS to eat the $300 and keep the grading fees coming in!