If given the choice, would you be buying 69's or 70's?

phantom1701 · January 24, 2008 2:04AM

I pose the question, because it is something I have wrestled with recently regarding slabbed moderns. On the one hand I like the lower price you get by buying 69's, but on the other hand I'm a perfectionist and want the coin to be, well....perfect. To this point I have been buying mostly 69's, again for the price, but also because the 70 pricing can be very volatile at times.

I guess what I'd really like to get everyone's opinion on is whether or not investment wise you are better off with 69's or 70's in the long term? Are the premiums that 70's currently enjoy over the 69's going to hold forever, or will the gap tighten.

Just curious as to what everyone's opinion is on this.

Thanks,
Jeff

rgCoinGuy · January 24, 2008 2:07AM

There is a pretty good debate on this Here

I will just say, good luck, and you should collect what you enjoy! Rob

Baley · January 24, 2008 2:11AM

populations of graded coins never go down, only up. and the rate at which 70s are graded are largely up to the services.

collect what you like. Myself, I avoid graded moderns, preferring rare and historical 200+ year old coins in grades like "net fair-2"

Russ · January 24, 2008 2:12AM

<< Are the premiums that 70's currently enjoy over the 69's going to hold forever >>

No. In the vast majority of cases, the quickest way to lose your ass is to buy the PR/MS70's right after they hit. With few exceptions, they always go down in value.

Russ, NCNE

BECOKA · January 24, 2008 2:15AM

Your best bet is to buy 69's. If you must have 70's as Russ mentioned you should wait several years for the populations to get stabilized. There will always be more so it really depends on if the collector base grows faster than the 70's being made over the coming years.

cladking · January 24, 2008 2:18AM

<< 

<< Are the premiums that 70's currently enjoy over the 69's going to hold forever >>

No. In the vast majority of cases, the quickest way to lose your ass is to buy the PR/MS70's right after they hit. With few exceptions, they always go down in value.

Russ, NCNE >>

This is even true for many mint products.

If you can avoid buying the brand new coin you can save a lot of money. Just wait
until they're three years old or so. You'll pay more on some but most will save you
money. It takes time to determine how scarce a new coin is because they aren't
evenly distributed.

Many people have to be the first on the block to have anything new. If you do, then
go ahead and buy them but remember you're may be paying the price.

tradedollarnut · January 24, 2008 2:25AM

Buy 69's that look like 70's. They are out there.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 24, 2008 2:27AM

Jeff, If you are buying for the grade, it's not the best investment. I think your hard earned dollars should be invested into ONE great coin over a dozen COMMON coins in a respected Third Party Grading company's holder (in spite of a grade, we're talking an unlimited supply over demand). Not that that is a bad choice, but be strategic.

I personally think MS67 Wheaties are a better choice.

Joe

pf70collector · January 24, 2008 2:29AM

There are some recent surprises for rarities such as the 2004 Proof Platinums. The ones minted on demand like the platinum proofs are the ones you need to keep an eye out for. Its seems that the recent mint issue 70's are no longer rare. So when I submit these new mint issues to PCGS I am not really looking to achieve 70s anymore, but am always hoping for one anyway. I will not buy recent mint issue 70's. The only exception is the 2006 W AGE Reverse 20th Anniversary (10,000). However I will try to make them on my own. You will have to go pre-2000 to find rare high grade condition rarity 70's and probably pay in some cases quite high prices.

BECOKA · January 24, 2008 2:30AM

The 70 grade is for competitive registry sets and for people like me who have OCD and just can't help themselves.

phantom1701 · January 24, 2008 2:34AM

Well, I should probably further clarify and say that I am talking about modern gold and platinum more than anything. As a general rule of thumb I like to stick with coins made from those metals, since even if the coin were to ever lose its numismatic value, at least there is still the price of the metal itself that will still be worth something. I do have some silver, but not very much.

I don't own any slabbed modern clad coins whatsoever. Personally I think that bubble will burst in the not too distant future.

Thank you for the comments thus far. They seem to be about what I was thinking.

relicsncoins · January 24, 2008 2:44AM

Well, both the 69 and 70 are semi- keys and represent good value. The 69/9 brings a nice premium and all of them should be found with full feather tips and diamonds...............................Oh wait, your talking about monder crap? Nevermind.

JJ

Rarity · January 24, 2008 2:57AM

I'll buy 69s and save the extra money to attend coin shows to buy more 69s

BillJones · January 24, 2008 3:14AM

I'm happy as a pig in stuff to fill the modern coin holes in my registry type set PR-69 Ultra Cameo coins. For $10 to $25 a throw I've found some really pretty modern coins for short dollars. The money that is left over can spent on coins like this.

Even with coins like this, I'll never be #1 among the type collectors, so why waste money on getting PR-70 coins?

And as Trade Dollar Nut wrote, some of the PR-69s are the same as the PR-70s. You only have look and be selective. Part of the 70 grade coin business is a matter of perception, not reality.

123cents · January 24, 2008 3:16AM

I almost always buy 69's.

57loaded · January 24, 2008 3:17AM

<< 

<< Are the premiums that 70's currently enjoy over the 69's going to hold forever >>

No. In the vast majority of cases, the quickest way to lose your ass is to buy the PR/MS70's right after they hit. With few exceptions, they always go down in value.

Russ, NCNE >>

great advice for a modern buyer

ttown · January 24, 2008 3:21AM

I buy 69 for the price if I must but really go after the mint package without the grading in the modern gold and plats.

19Lyds · January 24, 2008 3:32AM

Strictly speaking on moderns, IMO, 70's are only good for the registry game! If you're looking for a really nice example of a coin for collectibility purposes, then save yourself some money and buy the 69's.

Probably the one exception is the 2003 MS70 Lincoln.

For Silver Eagles, your MS70 or PR70 could literally be eaten alive by milk spots which will downgrade it to a 69 or even less. Especially for non-prepped First Strike™ eagles.
The gold ones I no nothing about since I don't own any.

cladking · January 24, 2008 3:36AM

<< much.

I don't own any slabbed modern clad coins whatsoever. Personally I think that bubble will burst in the not too distant future.

>>

A lot of people believe this and have been predicting it since the day they started
going up. I suspect that as long as people do believe it they are safe from any sort
of major correction. With the very small demand it's hard for me to envision any sort
of collapse in this demand. There should be plenty of room for growth with a new
generation of collectors. Many of these new collectors have gotten their start col-
lecting clad from circulation.

As with any coin, collectors should remember that a hobby is for fun and that they
shouldn't spend a lot of money on things they don't understand. If you want to col-
lect clad, or anything, just go slow and sell something once in a while so you know
the true value.

Gemineye · January 24, 2008 3:55AM

I have a nice collection of PCGS PR69DCAM Sacs..starting from 2000 thru 2007 ...and they look very nice and I am very satified with them...

Whitby · January 24, 2008 3:59AM

I buy the coin.

Coinhog · January 24, 2008 4:13AM

<< I pose the question, because it is something I have wrestled with recently regarding slabbed moderns. On the one hand I like the lower price you get by buying 69's, but on the other hand I'm a perfectionist and want the coin to be, well....perfect. To this point I have been buying mostly 69's, again for the price, but also because the 70 pricing can be very volatile at times.

I guess what I'd really like to get everyone's opinion on is whether or not investment wise you are better off with 69's or 70's in the long term? Are the premiums that 70's currently enjoy over the 69's going to hold forever, or will the gap tighten.

Just curious as to what everyone's opinion is on this.

Thanks,
Jeff >>

many 69's are perfect and many 70's aren't.. if you are a collector, the 69 is a no brainer. If you are an investor/speculator, the risk of buying a 70 is in my opinion, not worth it.

droopyd · January 24, 2008 4:44AM

I buy primarily for my own enjoyment and secondarily for long-term monetary appreciation. I do not play the "flipping" and registry games, nor am I interested in "modern crap" or bullion coins.

So I guess the answer is I would not be buying either 69s or 70s. Maybe a 67 if the price was right.

cladking · January 24, 2008 5:04AM

<< I buy primarily for my own enjoyment and secondarily for long-term monetary appreciation. I do not play the "flipping" and registry games, nor am I interested in "modern crap" or bullion coins.

So I guess the answer is I would not be buying either 69s or 70s. Maybe a 67 if the price was right. >>

So it's OK to play the high grade coins as long as they aren't modern?

BobGreene · January 24, 2008 5:15AM

The difference between a 69 and a 70 us usually so miniscule as to be negligible. Why waste your money on a 70 when a 69 looks just as nice?

DJCoinz · January 24, 2008 5:32AM

<< If given the choice, would you be buying 69's or 70's? >>

If given the money, one of each, MS and PR.

messydesk · January 24, 2008 5:36AM

Due to the MS70 Paradox I've described here, I have no interest in buying coins slabbed as 70. I'll buy attractive 69s instead (and 69s sure as hell better be attractive).

BillJones · January 24, 2008 5:37AM

At the FUN show I was looking to fill some of the modern coin holes in my registry type set, which is across the street. One of the holes is the 40% silver clad half dollar (1965 – 70), which I wanted in cameo Proof. These coins were struck before the mint started to make a strong effort to produce its Proof coins with the cameo finish, so there is a bit of scarcity here. I went through this dealer's stock, which was still quite good despite the fact that it was toward the end of the show. The best coin I found for the money was an NGC PR-67 Ultra Cameo. It was better than some of the coins in 68 holders for more than three times the money. The only defect was a trifling hairline between the “T” and “Y” of “LIBERTY.”

The price? $23.00

If you want to fill the modern coin holes with pieces that have a really great look and not pay a lot of money, this is the way to do it.

cladking · January 24, 2008 6:21AM

BillJones
Choose Your Title

Posts: 11190
Joined: Dec 2001

So when are you going to choose your title?

Don't make me start a poll.

SeattleSlammer · January 24, 2008 7:04AM

No. In the vast majority of cases, the quickest way to lose your ass is to buy the PR/MS70's right after they hit. With few exceptions, they always go down in value.

Russ writes the truth, there are many, many assless suckers walking around.

droopyd · January 24, 2008 7:07AM

<< So it's OK to play the high grade coins as long as they aren't modern? >>

Not with my budget, it's not.

BillJones · January 24, 2008 7:38AM

<< 

<< So it's OK to play the high grade coins as long as they aren't modern? >>

Not with my budget, it's not. >>

I do buy high grade Buffalo nickels and Walking Liberty half dollars in grades like PR-66 and 67. The trouble I'm fussy when it comes to Proofs, and it's amazing how messed up some of these coins are in PR-65 holders.,

As for the 19th century 64 is my grade. For realy early expensive stuff, AU is my target grade.

cladking · January 24, 2008 7:42AM

<< 

<< So it's OK to play the high grade coins as long as they aren't modern? >>

Not with my budget, it's not. >>

I've always had champagne tastes and choke cherry wine budget.

RegistryCoin · January 24, 2008 7:47AM

I wouldn't play with another TPG's 70s, but well chosen PCGS 70s, with decisions based on expected popularity of the series in question, and expected "grade-through" rates to 70, can prove very fruitful.

jessewvu · January 24, 2008 7:53AM

I don't mean to steal your thread but this made me think of a question. Why doesn't PCGS tell you what each grader graded your coin. If you have a PCGS 70 coin, graded by three people, that means at least one of the graders graded it a 69. I was wondering if a PCGS 70 coin was cracked out or sent back in for re-grading (if it were every to happen just to prove a point) how long would it take to come back as a 69 assuming the coin was never damaged in the process? That would probably never happen in real life because it doesn't make any sense.

I still can't tell (the majority of the time) what the difference between a 69 and a 70 coin is after it has been slabbed. So, for me, I guess right now I don't have any business buying coins graded 70 unless I just want to buy the plastic for a registry set or something. For the crusty collectors here that can tell the difference, they would be able to appreciate a coin graded 70 just by looking at the coin, not the grade.

Long term? I guess that has everything to do with population and mintage.

*****
edited for spelling

53BKid · January 24, 2008 7:57AM

<< I wouldn't play with another TPG's 70s, but well chosen PCGS 70s, with decisions based on expected popularity of the series in question, and expected "grade-through" rates to 70, can prove very fruitful. >>

So what's your prognosis for the Eagle Commems?

WaterSport · January 24, 2008 8:19AM

I can not justify buying a PR 70 Lincoln (modern) when the cost ($400+) will but you a PR 63 1936 type 2 Lincoln, 1937 PR 65 Lincoln,or other high grade early Lincoln. There a few point Zealots who see this as important while major holes remain unfilled. But there are no rules in collecting so to each their own.

WS

RegistryCoin · January 24, 2008 8:31AM

<< So what's your prognosis...? >>

It would be interesting to do a quick comparison study of the grade-through rates and mintages and prices of recent similar issues.

notwilight · January 24, 2008 8:43AM

<< 

<< Are the premiums that 70's currently enjoy over the 69's going to hold forever >>

No. In the vast majority of cases, the quickest way to lose your ass is to buy the PR/MS70's right after they hit. With few exceptions, they always go down in value. Russ, NCNE >>

You mean like the PR70 DCAM gold buffalos that I sold to several forum members for $1599? That was up from the $1400 they were selling for in the summer...and now they're $1800+.

Russ · January 24, 2008 8:50AM

<< << Are the premiums that 70's currently enjoy over the 69's going to hold forever >>

No. In the vast majority of cases, the quickest way to lose your ass is to buy the PR/MS70's right after they hit. With few exceptions, they always go down in value. Russ, NCNE >>

You mean like the PR70 DCAM gold buffalos that I sold to several forum members for $1599? That was up from the $1400 they were selling for in the summer...and now they're $1800+. >>

If you're going to attempt to make some kind of point, you probably ought to select a coin whose underlying precious metal content hasn't dramatically risen in value since last summer.

Russ, NCNE

FullStepJeffs · January 24, 2008 8:53AM

Depends on the price...

Steve

FLBuffaloHunter · January 24, 2008 8:55AM

If you like collecting 69's your are in luck! 95% sell for less than issue or melt which ever is the higher of the two

coolest · January 24, 2008 9:01AM

I don’t believe anyone can tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 with NGC or PCGS. So to me the 69’s are a much better value. Also I find it very interesting that NGC grades a so many more 70’s than PCGS.

FLBuffaloHunter · January 24, 2008 9:18AM

<< I don’t believe anyone can tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 with NGC or PCGS. So to me the 69’s are a much better value. Also I find it very interesting that NGC grades a so many more 70’s than PCGS. >>

And going by their own standards, both are technically 70's when graded according to the standards each use. Ultimately value is determined by collectors and the premium they are willing to pay. Given the premium PCGS 70's have over NGC 70's, they are viewed as having a tighter standard than NGC by collectors and can be verified by the 70 grading ratios of both companies.

7Jaguars · January 24, 2008 11:08AM

I think that the break point is kind of crazy as if the difference is as arguable as it seems to be, multiplication of values as one gets to the 70 from 69 is crazy. If the price of a 70 is close, I would tend to reach and if not let it go. I have bought many eagles of gold and plat when there is a small premium, as can occur occasionally on the 'bay.

Russ · January 24, 2008 11:15AM

<< multiplication of values as one gets to the 70 from 69 is crazy. >>

You want crazy? What's the value of an AU58 1884-S Morgan? How about an MS63? Plenty of AU58's look as nice as some MS63's. The point is that the argument about value difference vis-à-vis minimal differences in appearance is equally valid with many "classics", yet seems to be readily ignored.

Russ, NCNE

Myqqy · January 24, 2008 11:29AM

Like many others, I see a lot more value in high end 69's than in chasing 70's. I think the 70 grade is mostly arbitrary, and up to the whims of a grading company...

BAJJERFAN · January 24, 2008 1:32PM

<< I don’t believe anyone can tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 with NGC or PCGS. So to me the 69’s are a much better value. Also I find it very interesting that NGC grades a so many more 70’s than PCGS. >>

The simple explanation would be that more 70s get sent to NGC.

MrSpud · January 24, 2008 2:05PM

I like buying raw coins that would be 70s if slabbed for the price of a raw coin

Joflax · January 24, 2008 2:17PM

<< No. In the vast majority of cases, the quickest way to lose your ass is to buy the PR/MS70's right after they hit. With few exceptions, they always go down in value.

Russ writes the truth, there are many, many assless suckers walking around. >>

Ibought my last 70 in about 2003 after seeing my pop 3 or 4 coins suddenly turn into pop 35+ coins. Before 2003 these had remained low pop 70s for many years and then suddenly the market was flooded. IMHO there is absolutely no reason to pay a heavy premium for a coin unless there are fewer than 10 of them at least 50 years after they were released.

cladking · January 24, 2008 2:47PM

If given the choice, would you be buying 69's or 70's?

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