Is it typical to get this rainbow toning on a proof Ike dollar?

Longacre · January 23, 2008 2:59AM

I was taking a look at an auction catalog, and this coin caught my eye. Admittedly, I am not an expert in Ikes. I assume that this coin is clad rather than silver (please correct me if I am wrong). If so, how typical is such beautiful rainbow toning on Ikes? Attached below is the auction description:

"Lot 3212 1972-S Eisenhower Dollar. ANACS graded Proof 69 Cameo. Wonderful rainbow toning on both sides. A coin that will bring a lot of money.
Estimated Value $500 - 700. "

Oldnewbie · January 23, 2008 3:02AM

Looks like a "gototoning" coin to me.

kryptonitecomics · January 23, 2008 3:03AM

I have seen a lot of them in government holders....hard to say if heat was introduced etc but I have seen a ton of them in top TPG holders.

Russ · January 23, 2008 3:05AM

It is very typical, and also very common, for proof Ikes to develop target toning. It's usually not that colorful, though.

Russ, NCNE

sinin1 · January 23, 2008 3:06AM

looks 40% silver to me

that is a nice looking coin

it depends on your definition of alot of them

many in brown boxes get a blue haze

if the colors are as shown
that is an exceptional IKE and may bring a couple hundred at least

keets · January 23, 2008 3:12AM

i think the coin has been Photographed to accentuate the color and eliminate the haze which is typical on the BrownBox Ikes. it appears from the rim thickness that the coin is tilted.

i realize that tone is all the craze right now and tends to authenticate a coin as "original" in the minds of many collectors and dealers. my attempt with these issues is a challenge i'd pose to anyone interested in accepting it. there are only four coins in these BrownBoxes, 1971-S through 1974-S, and i'm trying to find all four still intact with absolutely no haze and/or tone with heavy frost, clear mirrors and PF69UCAM surfaces to submit for the "in Mint packaging" certification that NGC does the same as the GSA's. to date i have one coin, the 1971-S.

that is original.

planetsteve · January 23, 2008 3:39AM

<< ...it appears from the rim thickness that the coin is tilted.

... >>

A valid photographic technique, no?

Gandyjai · January 23, 2008 4:32AM

Of the (4) Brown Box Silver Proof Ikes,...It is the 74-S that does get some really nice target toning
(especially on the obverse) on a fairly regular basis.

The neon-greenish center with a THICK (like on this reverse) rainbow rim is a red flag signature for
fake PKOK Ikes that are being "manufactured" out in Utah. Some of these make it into TPG's.
As nice as this looks....I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole!
(JMHO)

Brian

I LOVE

Variety & Error Ikes!

keets · January 23, 2008 4:40AM

A valid photographic technique, no?

probably not a requirement for someone who knows how to use light and has the equipment which best utilizes their skill as a Numismatic photographer. it isn't something i'd expect at Heritage since they should have in their employ one of the pre-eminent shutter-bugs, but judging solely on the erratic pictures at the Heritage site that isn't the case. personally speaking, if i had the where-with-all to spend money for a 12mp Digital SLR and all the other bells and whistles needed i feel confident i could upgrade the pictures at the Largest Coin Dealer/Auction House in the world.

as it is, i make do with my set-up that cost me about $120.

planetsteve · January 23, 2008 7:20AM

I do think some tilt is okay -- it's hard to show the level of toning that shows on tilting the coin in hand. A coin shaped like an ellipse should raise eyebrows, though, I suppose.

tightbudget · January 23, 2008 7:21AM

<< It is very typical, and also very common, for proof Ikes to develop target toning. It's usually not that colorful, though.

Russ, NCNE >>

Usually it's brown.

SeattleSlammer · January 23, 2008 7:22AM

impossible to tell from that washed out photo whether it's a monster or not....

pharmer · January 23, 2008 10:02AM

<< Of the (4) Brown Box Silver Proof Ikes,...It is the 74-S that does get some really nice target toning
(especially on the obverse) on a fairly regular basis.

The neon-greenish center with a THICK (like on this reverse) rainbow rim is a red flag signature for
fake PKOK Ikes that are being "manufactured" out in Utah. Some of these make it into TPG's.
As nice as this looks....I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole!
(JMHO)

Brian

I LOVE

Variety & Error Ikes!

>>

Wow, talk about specificity. Now we don't need his address or SSN, but give us some images of his work so we will know what to look for. And please folks, this request is of gandyjai, so no chiming in with what you think is AT. I've heard of this guy, and now we have someone here who knows a lot, so let's see it. Over to you gandyjai.

pharmer · January 23, 2008 10:24AM

Well, actually, I "heard" about this guy here. So, the chances of it being true are not good.

ModernDollarNut · January 23, 2008 10:32AM

While waiting for Gandy to respond, my take was AT due to atypical colors washing perfectly over minor devices. Out-gassing from less than ideal gov't packaging typically layers in declivities and thus non-uniform colors over minor devices.

The TPGs holder such Ikes in response to market pressure, in other words, such Ikes may be deemed by the TPG's "market acceptable".

That does not mean they are NT. But if you like the colors, and such Ikes do not trigger your personal AT rejection threshold, go for it! Just don't expect to get your premium back if "market acceptable" changes. Rob

KUCH · January 23, 2008 10:48AM

I went and checked my vault.

IKES in Brown boxes

3 - 1971 S - No toning deep mirror
2 - 1972 S - No toning deep mirror
1 - 1973 S - No Toning deep mirror
1 - 1974 S - Beginng stages of toning on obverse, No toning on reverse

Gandyjai · January 23, 2008 12:10PM

Sorry for the delay,...had to put the little ones to bed.

If you want an example of the "Utah NEW PKOK look" just take a GOOD look at the reverse
of this coin. We have the signature neon-green center fading into orange. The only difference is,
when you start getting into the darker colors, reds, blues ect...THAT band is very wide. It needs to
be very thin and right next to the rim. The obverse looks a heck of a lot more "original" than the back.

Best way to spot a "Fake" PKOK is to take a good look at an "Original" one. Check out some of the True View Pics
of some of the top Ike collections. Sego's 74-S and Wang's 73-P are about as picture perfect "Classic" as you can get!

These are super-high quality coins that come from the original PKOK hoard.
They have a very THIN band of the darker rainbow along the rim. Some "real" PKOKS don't have any darker rainbow, and are mostly
neon green and orange.
Bottom line, beware of a thick, rainbow after the orange color. Especially if it's raw, and trickles out of Utah onto eBay about every
three months or so.

BUT....These "New" PKOK coins are STILL VERY attractive!
People DO like them!
They ARE becoming market acceptable!
They ARE landing in respectable TPG holders!
They probably deserve SOME kind of premium for this.....Just don't expect an "Original PKOK" premium when you go to sell it!

I really have no problem with the guy selling these out of Utah (any more). I sure as hell did when he was advertising
them as "from the Original PKOK Hoard" a few years ago and even SHILLING them!

His shills even caught one of our esteemed board members (and winning bidder) by surprise until I exposed it to the board member.
If you are going to make a pretty Ike, FINE....just don't lie about it and call it what it ain't!

The seller has since quit claiming them to be from the "Original Hoard" and no longer starts at a low price to get a bunch
of bids (or shills) and interest. Most are the 40% Silvers. He usually starts around $49. Also sells an occasional Washington Quarter
with the exact same toning! (I've also seen these quarters land in respectable TPG's)

Next time I see one on eBay...I'll post the link here for the board.

Thanks for asking my opinion!

Brian

I Love

Variety & Error Ikes!

fcloud · January 23, 2008 12:11PM

I love the looks of that one!

wondercoin · January 23, 2008 12:24PM

I did a thread not too long ago about monster toned Proof Ikes - check it out. They are very difficult to locate for years 1976-S and 1973-S. 1971-S is a little easier, followed by 1972-S. 1974-S is the easiest date to get monster toned Proof Ikes. My son, Justin, has personally set aside 100+ rainbow 1974-S Proof Ikes still in the govt. plastic. Some are incredible color coins - many "target toned" in purples and reds. I plan to submit about 50 of them to PCGS tomorrow for Justin.

I have mentioned before - there is no better coin value out there (IMHO) than a $15 raw 1974-S Proof Ike with beautiful color - available at virtually any major show with a little searching.

Wondercoin

jmski52 · January 23, 2008 12:49PM

Stored for about the past 20 years in a Gemvelope:

Bought off ebay and removed from Mint packaging this past year:

mnmcoin · January 23, 2008 1:00PM

If it was clad it would be worth a ton, that or 20 to life for counterfeiting.

morris

YaHa · January 24, 2008 8:20AM

I just check my fridge out in the garage and I have some super toning on some old cheese slabs someone put in my 12 pack of beer over Thanksgiving holiday. Any value?

ahooka454 · January 24, 2008 8:24AM

is it stickered?

ill pay 2x over sheet on that for sure!

edited to add" can a quick dip take haze off a 40%silver proof ike? what is the best way? does it bb at tpgs?

thanks

jhusman · January 24, 2008 8:30AM

That second 1974 is awesome - I have a set of brown box Ikes that have that same color.

pharmer · January 24, 2008 8:38AM

"Thanks for asking my opinion!"

You bet. And while it's verbose, it is just an opinion.

We need proof when AT claims are made. It might be. Should be easy to prove.

Gandyjai · January 25, 2008 11:08AM

Pharmer,

You're more than welcome! Yes, it is just my opinion...but it is one that is formed from many long hours of
research and lots of digging.

You say that, "We need proof when AT claims are made"....My proof is, that once,exposed, this seller not only quit
starting his bids at a low price and shilling them up,....he quit claiming them to be "From The Original PKOK Hoard".
The proof is in the pudding!

The seller knows what he was doing, and when I told a fellow board member, (Pat Braddick) that his winning bid was getting
shilled up and provided the proof....Pat was not happy about it....and rather shocked!.....things changed.

They still appear from time to time.
I pointed out one of his eBay "false PKOK" Ikes to ModernDollarNut about two months ago. I think it went for around $50.
They still show up, but not that often (maybe one every 3 months or so).

So, yes,...It is an opinion, but an opinion formed from a LOT or research and digging,...and NO, it wasn't EASY to prove. But, once proved,
the false claims stopped and so did the shilling. "The proof is in the pudding."

Those that know me, know that "I don't blow smoke"...and I don't make such claims without doing the research that I need, to know
what I am talking about.

JMHO,
Brian

I Love

Variety & Error Ikes!

bushmaster8 · January 25, 2008 12:06PM

If Brian says it's fake, you can take it to the bank....

ricko · January 25, 2008 12:40PM

The coin toning has been assisted... albeit lightly.. however, that being said, if you are a 'toning freak'.. then it matters not. Cheers, RickO

jmj3esq · January 25, 2008 12:43PM

I owned one like that once and have seen others for sale. If there ever was a nice Ike, that is it.

truthteller · January 25, 2008 3:57PM

I really would like to hear the story of the "original" PKOK coins. Really I would.

TRUTH

sinin1 · January 25, 2008 4:02PM

how about a clad dollar?

UtahCoin · January 25, 2008 10:24PM

So who is the seller in Utah? I have always suspected a guy in Ogden (350 miles north of me) of toning seated proof coinage.

Bruceswar · January 25, 2008 10:33PM

<< So who is the seller in Utah? I have always suspected a guy in Ogden (350 miles north of me) of toning seated proof coinage. >>

Hey I brought a nice coin from the guy in Ogden... It was a sweet toner...

pharmer · January 26, 2008 12:58AM

<< Pharmer,

You're more than welcome! Yes, it is just my opinion...but it is one that is formed from many long hours of
research and lots of digging.

You say that, "We need proof when AT claims are made"....My proof is, that once,exposed, this seller not only quit
starting his bids at a low price and shilling them up,....he quit claiming them to be "From The Original PKOK Hoard".
The proof is in the pudding!

The seller knows what he was doing, and when I told a fellow board member, (Pat Braddick) that his winning bid was getting
shilled up and provided the proof....Pat was not happy about it....and rather shocked!.....things changed.

They still appear from time to time.
I pointed out one of his eBay "false PKOK" Ikes to ModernDollarNut about two months ago. I think it went for around $50.
They still show up, but not that often (maybe one every 3 months or so).

So, yes,...It is an opinion, but an opinion formed from a LOT or research and digging,...and NO, it wasn't EASY to prove. But, once proved,
the false claims stopped and so did the shilling. "The proof is in the pudding."

Those that know me, know that "I don't blow smoke"...and I don't make such claims without doing the research that I need, to know
what I am talking about.

JMHO,
Brian

I Love

Variety & Error Ikes!

>>

See, this is what passes for truth when "AT!" claims are made on this forum. It's not proof, admit it. Something happened, and you claim it happened because of something you did. But you don't know it. You cannot know it. It may be a surmise. But it is not proof in any way, shape or form. Not that I don't appreciate where you're coming from or your motivations. But this would not count as proof in a laboratory, or a court of law, or anywhere the meaning of the word proof still has value. It's an anecdote, and your proof is just a surmise.

charley · January 26, 2008 1:21AM

Respectfully, without intent to direct a comment to anyone in particular, proof is a cogency of evidence. Gandyjai has indeed offered proof. This is not the same as stating that there is not another reasonable explantion that hasn't emerged yet. Respectfully, John Curlis. BTW, Gandyjai, thank you for a very cogent Post.

jmski52 · January 26, 2008 1:33AM

We need proof when AT claims are made. It might be. Should be easy to prove.

pharmer, I'd be interested to know what constitutes an easy proof of AT to you. If there's an indisputable and easy test, I'd like to include it into my knowledge base, limited though it may be.

Gandyjai's observations of the toning itself seems to mesh well with other good explanations that I've read on this forum, more so than not. If his explanations aren't satisfactory, what is your alternate analysis?

RYK · January 26, 2008 1:39AM

Since we are not talking about a murder case, I am willing to accept the "preponderance of evidence" standard and accept Brian's well-thought and well-researched position.

Now, if someone was alleged to be murdered while artificially toning the coin, I would expect a greater burden of proof to make the allegation of murder stick.

Is it typical to get this rainbow toning on a proof Ike dollar?

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