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Why are Matte Proof Lincolns "Hot as a Pistol "
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
If you look at the PCGS price guide these coins are risiung in price quicker than any other coin series.This has been consistent for some time now.There is a 1909 VDB graded PCGS proof 66 red coming to auction and I am told it will pass $100,000..
Educate me
Stewart
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<< <i>They are being actively promoted. >>
<< <i>They are being actively promoted. >>
Exactly. Half the threads in the Set Registry forum are about what MPL's happen to be in stock or auction.
<< <i>
<< <i>They are being actively promoted. >>
Exactly. Half the threads in the Set Registry forum are about what MPL's happen to be in stock or auction. >>
...and how prices are escalating.
Any idea "who" is promoting them? Is there a way to find out?
Just curious.
I was told by a b/m dealer to buy them back in 2000. He thought they were undervalued because of their small surviving pops and the strong demand for the early MS Lincolns. He thought the growing demand for MS Lincolns would also push up the matte proofs. However, he had none for sale. It is hard to promote and make a profit when you don't have any for sale
FrederickCoinClub
I have no clue.
<< <i>Any idea "who" is promoting them? Is there a way to find out?
Just curious. >>
Just go look and see who is starting all the threads on that Forum.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Obviously Stewart is the one promoting. This subtly disguiged thread doesn't fool me. >>
Actually, I heard it was you. Screening mammos and MPLs.
<< <i>Obviously Stewart is the one promoting. This subtly disguiged thread doesn't fool me. >>
My subtly disguised post doesn't fool me, I am the one that is promoting them,
<< <i>
<< <i>Obviously Stewart is the one promoting. This subtly disguiged thread doesn't fool me. >>
My subtly disguised post doesn't fool me, I am the one that is promoting them, >>
Lincoln set Colorless Set
<< <i>Blame brother Curly
Curly is a passionate collector. He deserves no blame whatsoever.
<< <i>
<< <i>Blame brother Curly
Curly is a passionate collector. He deserves no blame whatsoever. >>
True, enough. Let me restate my position.
Credit brother Curly
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
On the contrary, the fact is, that my friend (and former Eagle Eye partner) BWRC has long recognized the interest in these and has made it a point to buy the nice ones when he can. There is a small, but very committed collector group that understand these coins and are willing to stretch to buy the nice ones. BWRC held an auction for a 1909 VDB PR65RB, Yes, that was Red-Brown! The collectors fought over it for over $40K! The price was recently justified by a PR64RB selling for over $30K at auction.
So, It's more like an awakening than a promotion, in my opinion. Nothing artificial about it.
Stewart, you should get out now! sell 'em all! Hurry! (Please!)
<< <i>Why should there be "Blame" i have none (Matte's) and don't see anything wrong with what is called "promoting" everyone here promote's don't they? When i bring up say 1805 half cent over and over again and get info from thread's or feed back is this wrong?RYK correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you "Promote" your gold on these fourm's and say you wern't going to post as often?Correct me if i'm out of line but what you call promoting i call post's so post away >>
There is a big difference between discussing something that one is interested in and have no business and profit motive and continually pumping up the same series that that happend to account for your livelihood.
As for "blame", without promoting, there would be hardly a coin hobby. Few would care about 09-S VDBs, 1913 Liberty nickels, Dahlonega, AH Kennedy halves, DCAMs, DPMLs, etc. What troubles me is that often benign promoting is mixed with more malignant price manipulation, and, for the casual collector who could be a victim, it is often difficult to detect until the promotion is over.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should there be "Blame" i have none (Matte's) and don't see anything wrong with what is called "promoting" everyone here promote's don't they? When i bring up say 1805 half cent over and over again and get info from thread's or feed back is this wrong?RYK correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you "Promote" your gold on these fourm's and say you wern't going to post as often?Correct me if i'm out of line but what you call promoting i call post's so post away >>
There is a big difference between discussing something that one is interested in and have no business and profit motive and continually pumping up the same series that that happend to account for your livelihood.
I started one thread in which I discussed my reasoning for stepping back from collecting and that I would be selling a large part of my gold coin collection. A few weeks later, another forum participant, not on my bidding, started a thread about the coins for sale. My motive was never for profit, and, as expected, I lost a sizable amount on the whole shebang. I later decided to re-enter collecting in another area because I enjoy the hobby so much. Got a problem with that?
As for "blame", without promoting, there would be hardly a coin hobby. Few would care about 09-S VDBs, 1913 Liberty nickels, Dahlonega, AH Kennedy halves, DCAMs, DPMLs, etc. What troubles me is that often benign promoting is mixed with more malignant price manipulation, and, for the casual collector who could be a victim, it is often difficult to detect until the promotion is over. >>
I now understand and was using you RYK as an example(and a bad one at that) no prob with anything you say. Sorry and i stand corrected
I bet BWRC sends every new sale price to Jamie Hernandez! If more people would keep him up to date we'd see some other price changes too.
if I had any nice coppers before WWII, I would dump them, dump them all
Three months later I still look forward to “promoting” the list and making a commentary of the MPL market. I think there is even a small fan club waiting each week for the List to be posted. I feel it provides a real service to the members here and wish other coins list would get started to help all fellow collectors find what they are looking for.
WS
<< <i> Half the threads in the Set Registry forum are about what MPL's happen to be in stock or auction. >>
I must have missed math in school when 8 of 71 equals half. There were 3 more posts besides the 8 I listed, but they had nothing to do with stock conditions or auctions.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
The big rise in these coins started when the 1909VDB PCGS PR65RD in the bowers auction went for $46,000 of which I did not bid on this coin as I deal in the RB and BN coins.
Then comes my auction where I set the reserve originally at 20K and only upped it to 25K after seeing the bowers coin go for $46,000. My 1909VDB graded PCGS PR65RB goes for $41,000 to my amazement.
Then comes the most recent sale of a 1909VDB MPL graded PCGS PR64BN. I bid this coin up to 5K all in FUN as I said posted on the Registry forum that 5K was my bid at the time. The coin goes for $34,500!! and my bid at $5,000??
So with the 1909VDB MPL cent on fire and many new PCGS MPL cent registry participants building these sets what is suppose to happen with the other dates that are rare in there own right?
I am to small time to have had the only effect on this market. With the 100yr anniversary of the Lincoln cent approaching and the VDB rising fast (not to my doing) It is my opinion that all the other boats will rise along with "the big one" when the tide comes in.
Rick is correct as I am in communication with Jaime Hernandez about current auction results concerning MPL cents as any specialist would or should do for their series.
edited for sp
situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into
a coin show wherever you are ,just walk in and yell "Matte Proof Lincolns".
And walk out.
You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and
they might ignore him.
And if two people do it, they may think they're both weird and they'll ignore both of them.
And if three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in
to a show and yellin' "Matte Proof Lincolns" and walking out.
They may think it's an organization.
And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said
fifty people a day walking in and yellin' "Matte Proof Lincolns" and
walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.
And that's what it is , the Matte Proof Lincoln Anti-Massacre Movement, and
all you got to do to join is yell it the next time a show come's around to your town....
My logic is if a 1909 S VDB in ms 67 red will bring $150,000 and is a pop 9 coin with about 100 graded as ms 66 red.
A 1909 VDB MPL PR 66 red with a pop 6 should be worth about the same.
Thererfore I predict the 1909 VDB PR 66 red in the Heritage coin auction should bring more than $100,000
Stewart
Stewart doesn't need to promote. If you know him well, he is just simply amazed at the "Moon Money" things are going for. He A) likes to see how his collection is doing compared to current values, but mainly posts these comments/titles because,
I agree.
Yea, the true promoters are trying to make a buck while the going is good!!! We know who they are. Can ya blame them???
The 66RD will go for over $100,000. I'd pay $90,000 for it now!!!!
Many moons ago, as a teen reading and rereading my Redbook, the early proof Lincolns were something I always wanted to collect. Just the minute mintages set them aside from the rest of Abe's vast family.
Today, trying to 'do' the entire Lincoln set is an immense undertaking. Those $4.62 or so face value in coins will become over 600K for a good set. There are those here who have taken on that challenge, and rose to the occasion. Though, I will guarantee, picking up the 1948-s and the 1956-d must become just so much stuffing of the sandwich.
Matte Proofs are nine coins. It is perhaps the one actual subset of Lincolns that a collector can put together as a whole, and feel good about doing it. It includes the one big rarity, the cherry on top of the sundae, the 09 vdb. So what if they are not everywhere to be found.....thats the fun, isnt it? If the woods were full of deer standing shoulder to shoulder, would hunters still 'enjoy' it?
Also, I think this is one coin that can be delightful in any MS grade. Browns, frequently toned, are beautiful to behold. Reds.....if they are not a dip job, are amazing to own realizing they have been red for nearly a century. Of course, that is because they have always been to one degree or another very desirable to own.
And, I will suggest that owning coins has become much more pleasureable since they have been slabbed. I know with my fat fingers, its so easy to fumble about with a penny, and maybe drop it down into the recliner etc etc. Slabs made it easy to admire your coins.
Last but not least, the advent of very high quality digital imaging by the average person has made the admiration of the matte surface much more enjoyable. Most certainly it is a lot easier to view, and through the internet share your collection. As a long time Lincoln buff, I am VERY 'turned on" by a high res image of a super strong strike MPL,. it is the best rendition of a wonderful piece of 20th century sculpture.
Getting a nice collection of Matte Proofs is a function of willpower, information and money. You can own a stunning Rolls Royce, and all will admire and fawn over it. You can own nine fairly ugly old pennies and it is a private pleasure shared by a select informed few.
<< <i>If you look at the PCGS price guide these coins are risiung in price quicker than any other coin series.This has been consistent for some time now.There is a 1909 VDB graded PCGS proof 66 red coming to auction and I am told it will pass $100,000..
Educate me
Stewart >>
The real reason undoubtedly is that all collectors are wannabees, Stewart Blay wannabees! I sure as
Mark
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Blame brother Curly
Curly is a passionate collector. He deserves no blame whatsoever. >>
True, enough. Let me restate my position.
Credit brother Curly
Thank you brother. That's a responsibility I'll gladly accept. As I have said in earlier posts, MPLs are rare and way under the radar. Thankfully, after I have completed my set, the brothers are beginning to realize just how rare and affordable these beauties are. Steve ( another brother on the forum ) has put out some amazing stats on MPL pops. The law of supply and demand still rules however and they will find their true level.
A couple of the brothers here are saying MPLs are being promoted and fingers are pointed (quite frankly) at Brian Wagner. I suppose he is promoting them to his clients, after all that's just about all he sells. I don't think he is moving the numismatic market for MPLs any more than the myriad of posters that come on here promoting gold are responsible for moving the gold market. Brian is energetic and believes in what he is selling. Nothing wrong with that.
In 2007, four proof 1909 VDBs sold that I know of. Three in auction and one privately. I know who purchased in one auction
MPLs may be "Hot as a Pistol" on the forum due to Brian and others like me but I don't think they are hot in the market place because of us.
The prices are high though. The Gray Sheet prices are a joke, but the asking prices on the FUN bourse floor made Coin Prices numbers look small. I ended up buying one in PR-65, Brown. I seem to be one of the few collectors who do not go gaga over red copper. I think the stuff is overrated, over priced and too delicate to own. Brown copper is much more stable.
As for the prices for 1909-VDB Matte Proofs, the mintage is less than 1,000, and the coin is now on the registries as a "required item." Add to that the fact that a decent portion of the mintage went into circulation because dissatisfied buyers did not like the coins, and you are looking at a short supply. Still to those who pay $100 grand for the coin, my comment is "A fool and his money are soon departed." The coin is not that much better than a well-preserved Mint State example.
<< <i>The coin is not that much better than a well-preserved Mint State example. >>
Apples and oranges, two completely different things.
-Paul
<< <i>Apples and oranges, two completely different things. >>
You are off the mark.
A lot of collectors during that period were very disappointed with the Matte Proof Lincoln cents because they bore so much of a resemblance to the business strike coins. The 1909-VDB cents were very well made, and indeed many modern collectors and dealers have had problems distinguishing the Proofs from the Business strikes for many years . That situation as long plagued the Matte Proof Lincoln market (as well as the Matte Proof Buffalo Nickel market), which one of the reasons why the prices have not gone up significantly until now.
<< <i>Still to those who pay $100 grand for the coin, my comment is "A fool and his money are soon departed." The coin is not that much better than a well-preserved Mint State example. >>
Assuming what I said wasn't true and assuming they were extremely hard to identify, I don't see why an example that was proved to be indeed a MPL would be worth little more than a BS. In fact, this would give all the more support for the high prices IMO.
-Paul
If my opinions make me a matte proof lincoln promoter, cool. i think they are a underrated(til now) sub-series. They should get some spotlight on them. they deserve it.
continue on promoting matte proof nuts, continue on...
<< <i>Assuming what I said wasn't true and assuming they were extremely hard to identify, I don't see why an example that was proved to be indeed a MPL would be worth little more than a BS. In fact, this would give all the more support for the high prices IMO. >>
The high prices are supported by registry fever. It’s a disease that prompts people to pay irrational prices in a rarified environment.
It is truly amazing that there are so many people on this side of the street who expound the position that it is impossible to overpay for anything. It is mind set that leads to market crashes, and yes I’ve been a collector for close to 50 years and have seen my share of them.
Those of us who are fortunate enough to own a 1909VDB Matte proof Lincoln cent probably consider the coin a little differently than any other Lincoln cent. The reason is because the coin is just NOT available to aquire from a coin dealer. There are probably only about 200 of these coins remaining in existence. They are identifyable, as are all proofs, by their square rims and strong images, but they also must have three key diagnostics which are unique to this variety. So those of us who own one or more KNOW they own the real thing. That makes this coin something real special. A major dealer can supply you with a 1914D mint state Lincoln cent with a little effort. That same dealer will have a very hard time supplying you with a 1909VDB Matte proof.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
BillJones, you are correct brother. For years the MPLs have languished because they were hard to tell from Mint State. Even with the low mintages the brothers were afraid of them and the prices suffered. In my opinion these little beauties have become collectable because of two events. The TPGs and the internet. TPGs because we have experts identifying them and the internet gives us information at our fingertips that wasn't available twenty years ago.
I do believe MPLs will continue to be popular. If they are popular now, think what would happen if the mint decides to discontinue Lincolns in 2009 and finishes with a matte 2009.
Now I don't want all you brothers to get excited about a matte 2009 actually happening. That's just a supposition on my part.
So demand does make a difference in price.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.