Lawsuit filed over ebay policy

tradedollarnut · January 12, 2008 1:59AM

Centsless and those third tier graders have ganged up and sued ebay, the ANA and PNG over the new ebay policy for graded coins. Personally, I hope the judge assigned summarily dismisses it.

cmerlo1 · January 12, 2008 2:06AM

I'm curious to see how this pans out...I don't see them having much of a case.

pharmer · January 12, 2008 2:10AM

Yes, it will be interesting. Plus it's free entertainment.

ksteelheader · January 12, 2008 2:19AM

<< Centsless and those third tier graders have ganged up and sued ebay, the ANA and PNG over the new ebay policy for graded coins. Personally, I hope the judge assigned summarily dismisses it. >>

On what basis of law?? What is the complaint of those suing??

WinPitcher · January 12, 2008 2:20AM

Restraint of trade?

Steve

LindeDad · January 12, 2008 2:22AM

How do you say NARU or what ever the expression is on eBay. Sue the hand that feeds you and you go hungery.
Hooray a few of the crooks won't be listing on eBay.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 12, 2008 2:24AM

Ooooh, the only way liars can win is to spend their millions on lawyers and convince crooked judges that they know the standard of grading better than the very organizations who are attempting to protect the integrity of the hobby via the lobby. Where's the popcorn guy ?

I'm glad we have lawyers and judges who collect coins

Swampboy · January 12, 2008 2:27AM

291fifth · January 12, 2008 2:29AM

Just what the ANA needs, more legal expenses.

AskRaq · January 12, 2008 2:32AM

Jeeze... the next thing you know, the cable TV conglomerates are gonna ban coin shows, jewelry shows & infomercials...... LOL

astrorat · January 12, 2008 2:35AM

TDN-

Do you know of a link to the court filings or a copy of the complaint? I am very interested to read the basis for the lawsuit. Thanks.

Lane

BECOKA · January 12, 2008 2:39AM

So is Centsless still listing on e-bay?

wondercoin · January 12, 2008 2:39AM

Just curious - If the Plaintiffs are successful in their case, will all the auction houses that, likewise, do not accept these coins have to change over and immediately accept them in their auctions as well?

Wondercoin

cheezhed · January 12, 2008 2:42AM

I hope the 3rd world graders have to explain their "subjective" grades.

coinkat · January 12, 2008 2:44AM

What is venue for the lawsuit?

TwoSides2aCoin · January 12, 2008 2:45AM

<< I hope the 3rd world graders have to explain their "subjective" grades. >>

Subjectivity is a great loophole. Market acceptance becomes the can of worms.

mrearlygold · January 12, 2008 2:46AM

Who do they think they're kidding?

ricko · January 12, 2008 2:55AM

This should be interesting.. would love to read the case papers. Cheers, RickO

tradedollarnut · January 12, 2008 2:57AM

I have the papers in pdf form [as attachments to an email] but have no idea how to link them here. PM me if you can do it if I forward the email to you.

Doogy · January 12, 2008 2:58AM

hopefully it will be summarily dismissed, otherwise maybe it will bring to light these shady grading practices. I also would bet that many numismatic luminaries like David Ganz, John Albanese and others that have testified on behalf of the coin industry/ANA in the past (during the last coin bull market, when the coin "boiler rooms" were everywhere), will be able to testify to the scams these crap slabbers are getting away with.

astrorat · January 12, 2008 2:58AM

<< 

<< I hope the 3rd world graders have to explain their "subjective" grades. >>

Subjectivity is a great loophole. Market acceptance becomes the can of worms. >>

Absolutely, subjectivity is a reason why when grading has been an issue left to the courts the ruling has (dare I say "always") been that grading is subjective enough so that no standard is uniformly accepted and (this is important) reproducible. There have been few published court rulings that I was able to find back when I was doing some research for the ANA on grading. If anyone does have court documents that contradict this, please let me (us) know.

Lane

Coxe · January 12, 2008 3:48AM

It isn't a matter of subjectitve grading but of independent third party grading. By technically saying on your website that you would accept submissions, they try to claim they aren't self graders/slabbers. eBay could defend by defining acceptable certification as that which has been verified to never grade and certify their own coins. It would be about complete exclusion (of internal submissions) rather than partial potential inclusion (of external submissions).

jmj3esq · January 12, 2008 3:55AM

Ebay has every right to refuse to allow a seller to sell a specific item if the so choose. If you dont like it go somewhere else. This case will be dismissed.

astrorat · January 12, 2008 4:14AM

<< It isn't a matter of subjectitve grading but of independent third party grading. By technically saying on your website that you would accept submissions, they try to claim they aren't self graders/slabbers. eBay could defend by defining acceptable certification as that which has been verified to never grade and certify their own coins. It would be about complete exclusion (of internal submissions) rather than partial potential inclusion (of external submissions). >>

Correct, however, I do not think the issue at hand is that between firms like the big four and the "self-slabbers." I think there is a significant issue when a legitimate (again, the definition is fuzzy) independent grading company is excluded.

Regarding "internal submissions," why does eBay then not require that they will only accept listing on certified coins graded by companies whose principals and employees are not involved in the numismatic trade? An outsider to the issue (e.g. a judge) may deem this a reasonable solution as it would be a stronger step in ensuring independence of grading (not addressing subjectivity or reproducibility, however).

Not that I am specifically an advocate of that step, it is just a rhetorical question.

Lane

airedale · January 12, 2008 4:25AM

<< Centsless and those third tier graders have ganged up and sued eBay, the ANA and PNG over the new eBay policy for graded coins. Personally, I hope the judge assigned summarily dismisses it. >>

Who are the other Plaintiffs please?

Russ · January 12, 2008 4:34AM

The defendants should trot out expert witness after expert witness detailing the true nature and reason behind all this SSS crap so that there is an extensive - and embarassing - record of precisely what these predators have done to the hobby.

Russ, NCNE

ArizonaJack · January 12, 2008 4:36AM

Who are the plaintiffs and where can we read the motions?

Russ · January 12, 2008 4:37AM

<< I think there is a significant issue when a legitimate (again, the definition is fuzzy) independent grading company is excluded. >>

Uh, Centsles is NNC. I assume you're familiar with their "grading" standards?

Russ, NCNE

airedale · January 12, 2008 4:41AM

Here is a link to the legal action.

astrorat · January 12, 2008 4:42AM

<< The defendants should trot out expert witness after expert witness detailing the true nature and reason behind all this SSS crap so that there is an extensive - and embarassing - record of precisely what these predators have done to the hobby.

Russ, NCNE >>

Yes...that would be a savvy approach.

Lane

Russ · January 12, 2008 4:45AM

Gee, I see Accugrade is in on it.

The only one of those plaintiffs that has a legit beef is SEGS.

Russ, NCNE

Coxe · January 12, 2008 4:47AM

Yes, it could be an issure in the cases of PCI, SEGS and ones like that. All the ones we are concerned about and which, I assume, represent the plaintiffs in the suit are not demonstrably independent.

And astrorat, I figured someone might brig up the involvement of employees in the trade. The line has to be drawn somewhere and I don't think, as an example, that PCGS would maintain any integrity if there was a reasonable consideration that David Hall Rare Coins was getting special treatment and grades. They know the value of complete independence is much higher than anything to be gained from backroom grding hanky panky. This, BTW, was my original primary concern with CAC since it is a dealer driven enterprise.

Russ · January 12, 2008 4:50AM

Does anybody else find it strange that a company that is on the auction block, PCI, is one of the plaintiffs?

Russ, NCNE

moonshine · January 12, 2008 4:51AM

I knew this was coming way back when they put the restrictions up on them.

slipgate · January 12, 2008 4:57AM

I have said in previous posts that they would sue. I will also state for the record that they will win this case and EBays TPG policy will not be able to exclude any grading service like they do now.

Ebay is not above the law which is what they are saying with this policy. This policy is wrong on many legal and moral fronts.

I conceed that it is right on a VERY few moral fronts.

airedale · January 12, 2008 5:00AM

<< Does anybody else find it strange that a company that is on the auction block, PCI, is one of the plaintiffs?

Russ, NCNE >>

I don't. Does anyone else find it strange the amount of inflammatory posts that Russ has already made on this thread. I don't.
Link to legal action

cmerlo1 · January 12, 2008 5:01AM

Did I read the legalese wrong, or are the plaintiffs claiming eBay said that if a coin wasn't certified by any of the approved services it couldn't be listed as certified and was considered counterfeit? I don't remember this being a part of the eBay policy...

Russ · January 12, 2008 5:04AM

The lawsuit contains a blatant factual error. They, like some others here, are making the claim that bidders were sent eMail notices for ended auctions that accuse the seller of listing counterfeits. This is not the case, and never has been the case. The word counterfeit appears only in the notice sent to the seller and nowhere in the notice they send to the bidders. They have offered up exhibit C to prove their point, yet this exhibit is the notice sent to sellers, not the notice sent to buyers.

Russ, NCNE

ILikeMercs · January 12, 2008 5:08AM

I thought Accugrade IS Treasure Galleries.

Treasure Galleries bought some unopened boxes of mint coins from me and next thing I know a bunch of 68's of this coin appeared. Guess what "holder" they were in?

Barry · January 12, 2008 5:17AM

Presenting the grading services in court may be tougher than most of you think.

When presented with evidence of crackout games, BB one time - slabbed the next, gradeflation, etc. by the "legitimate" grading services, it won't be all that easy to differentiate the plastic companies from each other.

Edited to add the following after reading the document:

1. Broderson is the same lawyer who represented Hager/ACG in his lawsuit against me and the 46 or so others. I don't recognize the law firm's name, so maybe he jumped ship.

2. I see I'm quoted in Exhibit B. Uh oh...

3. I'm surprised the ANA is named in the suit. I would have thought their settlement with Hager for the last suit would keep them out of it, as they didn't name Stuppler, who is mentioned, but not named.

UtahCoin · January 12, 2008 5:19AM

It might be wise to watch what you say here as I'm sure others are watching. Remember all our friends that got named in the last law suit over on rcc.

Doogy · January 12, 2008 5:20AM

here is a thread i posted earlier, that i find interesting in this case. Now that he is rejected from eBay, he is taking his three ring circus worldwide.

In reading my new issue (January monthly issue, page 30) of 'World Coin News', I noticed a Tokyo coin auction house (with offices in Shanghai, Taipei, and New York) with ad for an upcoming auction with special guest speakers. I'll quote it, so you can surmise what you will:

(there is a previous paragraph pointing out recent auction results with Chinese coins bringing fix and six figures)

"Champion Auction was part of a series of events to promote 3rd party grading in China. Beijing 11/25, Shanghai 11/28, Hong Kong 12/1, and Tapei 12/5 set up by iAsure's Journal of East Asian Numismatics (JEAN) website and Champion Hong Kong auction. Guests include PCGS President Ron Guth, PCGS consultant Karl Stephens,NNC President Robert Johnson , Taipei Numismatic Society President Chou Chien Fu, JEAN Editor Bruce Smith and iAsure CEO Michael Chou."

Two things spring to mind; too late NNC is you're wanting to dominate the crap slabber market in China, they already have enough counterfeiters over there. As for the rest of legit Chinese collectors and dealers, hopefully they will see through NNC's gross overgrading and accept the 'Big 2' TPGs like the US has.

(note: and for those that think Chinese coin collectors and dealers are all a network of con artists and counterfeiters, they are not. There is a big collecting base in China, and many of their coin shows make our FUN and ANA shows attendance look like neighborhood garage sales by comparison. )

MORGANHUNTER2 · January 12, 2008 5:25AM

from reading the pleadings so far, ebay is going to lose round one of this.

Oh Russ- back awhile ago- I did recieve a notice from ebay as a buyer of a worthless coin from one of the plaintiffs- and it did claim the magic word "counterfiet" in that message- I should have saved it- but back then I could care less.

this will be an interesting case to follow.

Coxe · January 12, 2008 5:28AM

<< It might be wise to watch what you say here as I'm sure others are watching. Remember all our friends that got named in the last law suit over on rcc. >>

Watch what is said also for our host's sake. CU has a vested interest in the progression of this suit and its eventual outcome. Points can be made, but this probably is not the best place to make them. Perhaps just matter of fact issues can suffice? Back to coins....

Russ · January 12, 2008 5:36AM

<< Oh Russ- back awhile ago- I did recieve a notice from ebay as a buyer of a worthless coin from one of the plaintiffs- and it did claim the magic word "counterfiet" in that message >>

If you did, the eBay drone simply clicked the wrong button. eBay does not, as a matter of policy, send that notice to buyers. The plaintiffs will have to produce one sent to buyers to prove that part of their claim. Their current exhibit C won't cut it.

This is the standard mail sent to buyers:

<< -----------------------------------------------------------------
eBay sent this message to Russ Stringham (compucheap).
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay.
Learn more: http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/name-userid-emails.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
eBay Listing Removed (=PS &12363 JM158987404)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear compucheap (sales@compucheap.com),

Thank you for your bid on the following auction-style listing:

Item number: 190172559608
Title: 1964 PROOF KENNEDY SILVER HALF ACCENTED HAIR ???? PR66

Unfortunately, eBay has removed this auction-style listing. All bids or offers on this listing have been canceled. Because the listing was ended, you no longer have any obligation to purchase this item.

Listings are removed for different reasons. For example:
- The way the item was listed may violate eBay policy.
- The sale of the item may be prohibited by eBay.
- The sale of the item may be prohibited by law.
- The removal may be part of a separate action taken by eBay that is unrelated to the listing itself.

We hope you understand that, due to privacy concerns, we're unable to discuss the details of why this listing was ended. However, please note that the removal of this listing should not suggest that this seller's standing in the eBay Community has been called into question.

For more information on why eBay may remove a listing, please go to:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/listing-ended.html

For information on how you can protect yourself and help ensure a positive buying experience in the future, visit:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/buyer_checklist.html

We're sorry for the inconvenience and thank you for your understanding.

Sincerely,

eBay Trust & Safety >>

Nowhere does it mention the word counterfeit and, in fact, states clearly that the ending of the auction is not necessarily a negative reflection on the seller.

Russ, NCNE

airedale · January 12, 2008 5:42AM

<< Presenting the grading services in court may be tougher than most of you think.

When presented with evidence of crackout games, BB one time - slabbed the next, gradeflation, etc. by the "legitimate" grading services, it won't be all that easy to differentiate the plastic companies from each other. >>

Good Point.

pharmer · January 12, 2008 5:44AM

Here's what they actually say to buyers. They aren't stupid enough to say counterfeit when they can't prove it.

"Unfortunately, eBay has removed this auction-style listing. All bids or offers on this listing have been canceled. Because the listing was ended, you no longer have any obligation to purchase this item.

Listings are removed for different reasons. For example:
- The way the item was listed may violate eBay policy.
- The sale of the item may be prohibited by eBay.
- The sale of the item may be prohibited by law.
- The removal may be part of a separate action taken by eBay that is unrelated to the listing itself.

We hope you understand that, due to privacy concerns, we're unable to discuss the details of why this listing was ended. However, please note that the removal of this listing should not suggest that this seller's standing in the eBay Community has been called into question."

Moki · January 12, 2008 5:56AM

I wonder if the "intention to deceive or confuse purchasers" on the part of TPGs will be considered in the proceedings.

vplite · January 12, 2008 6:00AM

<< Here is a link to the legal action. >>

Thanks for sharing this. A worthwhile read.

astrorat · January 12, 2008 6:15AM

<< 

<< I think there is a significant issue when a legitimate (again, the definition is fuzzy) independent grading company is excluded. >>

Uh, Centsles is NNC. I assume you're familiar with their "grading" standards?

Russ, NCNE >>

I was not referring to NNC or any company in particular. Also, don't forget that none of the grading companies use the same standards. Geez, NGC does not even use the ANA standards and they are the ANA's "official" grading company. Standards are all relative.

Lane

fastrudy · January 12, 2008 6:21AM

Lawsuit filed over ebay policy

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