<< <i>I'm 25, just turned this past October. I was never into coins, actually, they've been the furthest thing from my mind up until this past summer.The only things I've ever really cared about was music and girls. The only exposure I've ever had to coins was my dads Wheat Penny collection that I would screw around with when I was little. I found a Buffalo nickel at local field with my girlfriend and a buddy of mine. That's what got me curious and it took off from there, now I'm obsessed. But I show all my friends that stuff I've been buying and they all think it's insane and love looking at the stuff. I think most people have never really been exposed to coins aside from what they have in their pocket change. I had one friend the other night call me really late and ask me if he should buy some Morgans that he saw on TV. He wanted them because they were really old and silver, he thought it was cool. So now he's starting to get into the hobby. He was just never exposed to any types of coins before I don't think or maybe he was, but he was too busy doing the things that young people do. >>
Good post. I think is what we will see more of, people getting into it not as kids but as adults. Gotta remember folks, it's people like us who are driving the prices of finite numbers of coins up, so it's gonna be people like us age-wise who will fill our shoes cuz we made it an expensive game to play.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Good post. I think is what we will see more of, people getting into it not as kids but as adults. Gotta remember folks, it's people like us who are driving the prices of finite numbers of coins up, so it's gonna be people like us age-wise who will fill our shoes cuz we made it an expensive game to play. >>
Assuming that the future "people like us" have similar or larger amounts of disposable income as the current "people like us".
<< <i>Dying? Parts of it may just be. Clubs in particular are on that path. But as a whole, maybe changing, transforming or adjusting are more appropriate definitions of what's happening in the hobby today. >>
This is pretty close to the way I see the situation. People ignore demographics at their own risk. This is the primary driver of every market from potato chips to IBM stock. Collectors are getting older and effectively have been since 1965. On average, as a group, and discounting the newbies collecting states coins we have aged more than twenty years since 1965.
It is these states collectors who are the next generation. You can spin the facts any way you want but we older people will be, well, older. Very few 75 and 85 year olds collect extensively. Indeed, his- torically people tend to sell collections when they retire and the boom- ers are just starting to retire. The states program is nearly ten years old now so those kids who dropped out when they turned forteen or fifteen near the beginning are starting to drift back to the hobby now. These are young adults starting families so expenditures won't be very high yet but some will have good income. This is thousands per month coming back; all young, all looking to add to or complete sets. In twenty five years they'll, as a group, own almost all of our coins.
I don't get the whole "coddle the YN" thing....Most people have a lot more pressing issues in their late teens and twenties...not to mention just getting financially started in the world...to keep the coin hobby going.
You'll have your occasional Q. David, or Dwight Manley, who stay active consistently from youth. But face it...in the aggregate...YNs don't have any money !!!
The coin hobby needs to target the late 20's and early middle agers. It's nice to be nice to kids...but to keep this hobby vibrant, we need to draw more folks like ME in the hobby....I picked it up seriously again at the age of 40.
Speaking as a 22 year old, when I was younger no one collected coins at all, bottom line. But every single male I know age 20-28 has a huge collection of baseball and basketball cards.
Consequentially, we have all realized that your precious card collection is virtually worthless do to mass production. I believe that fact has turned a lot of people my age off to collecting.
But with that said, I think a lot of people my age have fond memories of collecting cards and would like to replicate that experience through another, possibly more productive collection, in my case currency collecting, or in yours, coins.
Two out of three of my kido's are very into coins. The 8 and 6 yr old boys now would rather go buy coins than toys!!! Maybe with the 6 yr old video games may overtake coins, but its close!
<< <i>Speaking as a 22 year old, when I was younger no one collected coins at all, bottom line. But every single male I know age 20-28 has a huge collection of baseball and basketball cards.
Consequentially, we have all realized that your precious card collection is virtually worthless do to mass production. I believe that fact has turned a lot of people my age off to collecting.
But with that said, I think a lot of people my age have fond memories of collecting cards and would like to replicate that experience through another, possibly more productive collection, in my case currency collecting, or in yours, coins. >>
That is true. I have a massive card collection that is virtually worthless. However, I didn't care about the value of those cards into the past year or so when I needed some cash. I collected them when I was younger because I liked too.
My 16 yr old daughter has been collecting the State quarters on her own. She always want to search my change and BUY them from me. It's her deal. No quite at the PCGS Slab buying level but, she is interested.
<< <i>I don't get the whole "coddle the YN" thing....Most people have a lot more pressing issues in their late teens and twenties...not to mention just getting financially started in the world...to keep the coin hobby going.
You'll have your occasional Q. David, or Dwight Manley, who stay active consistently from youth. But face it...in the aggregate...YNs don't have any money !!!
The coin hobby needs to target the late 20's and early middle agers. It's nice to be nice to kids...but to keep this hobby vibrant, we need to draw more folks like ME in the hobby....I picked it up seriously again at the age of 40.
This should be the ANA's job #1. >>
Don't get me wrong. I think everyone should be encouraged whether they are four or eighty. There's no reason to have any sort of restric- tion. I'm just saying that it's the kids who have gotten interested since 1998 who are going to be the nucleus of numismatics in 25 years.
Not sure about the french , but it would not surprise me if the russians, brazilians, chinese and indians are. Yeah, on second thought I would throw in the Europeans too. Their economies are coming along too.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Not sure about the french , but it would not surprise me if the russians, brazilians, chinese and indians are. Yeah, on second thought I would throw in the Europeans too. Their economies are coming along too. >>
Dont confuse disposable income for adult hobbies with grass roots youthful collecting. The main reason these baby boomers are shelling out the big bucks on coins has something to do with nostalgia. If today's children arent collecting coins, why will they in 20 years when they have some "real" funds? Think about the musclecar market during the past 10-15 years. It has been fueled by baby boomers, their large pocketbooks, and a taste of their youth.
There is a lot good to say about the hobby today. There are also some warnings about its future.
With all of the obvious pitfalls, numismatics has greatly benefitted from the rise of the internet. In fact, I can think of no other period that witnessed more focusedpower into the hobby. Information that used to be guarded by dealers and top collectors is now out there for any mensch with a rudimentary command of google. Third party grading has largely ushered in a blanket of consolidated trust, replacing the cancer of counterfeits, altered coins, and misrepresented AU sliders that dominated the hobby for decades. Remember when it seemed that nearly every 16-D dime or SVDB cent was and altered one? Now they are wading in eBay purgatory as raw or CW slabbed for the seriously uninitiated only.
The downside is a matter of demographics. The bourses are flooded with coin baalei tshuvim, middle-aged guys who are returning to the hobby of their youth now that they have money and resparked interest. YNs are VERY hard to come by. Coin collecting doesn't have the same attraction. We had the fire to find an SVDB or 55 DDO cent in change. Kids today hardly know what change is. Allowance is a gift certificate to The Gap or amazon.com. There is a lot of international interest in the hobby, but mainly at the investment grade side. Where are the kids at the coin club meetings? And I don't just mean Boy Scout types. Where are the 20-somethings, even 30-somethings? They can't all be getting tweaked on dope at some raves. I know; it's all that dating and sex distraction. It is also video games, the internet, ... Virtual stuff is a lot more fun and doesn't cost anything to insure. To have a future, we need to start doing things like getting a Dansco Jefferson album, magnifying glass and $40 in nickel rolls and sitting down on a rainy day with a child or neice or nephew and fill it up, then lookon eBay for deals on some of the missing ones. Nic-a-date and a pile of dateless Buffs works too. Anything to ignite a spark.
My 15 year old son spent the 1000 dollars he made over the summer on his collection... He has friends he's met his age at shows...I think the problem is that there isn't much outreach to kids
<< <i> To have a future, we need to start doing things like getting a Dansco Jefferson album, magnifying glass and $40 in nickel rolls and sitting down on a rainy day with a child or neice or nephew and fill it up, then lookon eBay for deals on some of the missing ones. Nic-a-date and a pile of dateless Buffs works too. Anything to ignite a spark. >>
I've been saying this for years. It's great to get a kid interested in neat coins like indian cents or Morgan dollars but they tend to lose interest if they can't add to their collections. Getting them in- terested in coins they can find or we can afford to continue to sup- ply is a much better idea.
This is what makes the states program so great. Some will do it without even any help or outside encouragement. But this isn't sufficient to retain the largest possible number of kids and young adults. They need encouragement and they need other things to tackle. They need information and to feel they can belong if they wish.
One way or the other the hobby will survive. This is a very crucial juncture in numismatics as the torch is passed to the next genera- tion. Let's just hope that it is considered important to protect it from the elements. Let's hope they find as much fun and knowledge as we have.
8-16 year olds don't have money to spend in a shop. When I was a kid I pulled coins from circulation and collected those. Maybe a couple times a year I'd spend $10 or so on a better coin from a coin dealer. I see plenty of kids at small local shows. When new price records are being broken almost daily for rare coins, I'd say definately "no" the hobby is very much alive and well.
It seems like a lot of your view is based on what you have seen at B&M shops and local shows. I have only been to a B&M shop a few times, but am no doubt a very active collector. While not overwhelming, there is a fair amount of younger people at larger shows. Getting out of school for a day may have a little to do with this attendence (it's a nice bonus ) but i'm sure there is interest in these YNs.
Also, Young Nuts (Myself included) like technology and the internet. I bet that ebay sales (volume wise) and dealers online inventory is just as hot as ever. You old people gotta get with the times.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
I am concerned about demographics when it comes to collectibles in general. While I have collected coins for about 36 years, I tend to think coins is an acquired taste.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I don't know if your story really ties into your excellent question. A 32 year old's experience is quite a bit different than a child's.
I agree with Julian. I wasn't with you when you were at that shop, but based on what you wrote alone, I think some discretion may have helped. We're the other customers within earshot?
Also, perhaps if you prefaced your request with what your budget was ($$$$), then maybe the reaction may have been different. You mentioned "17% profit". I don't know enough about margins in the coin business to know if this is enough or not. But what you described is not profit, it's gross margin. If the store owner did a gross margin of 17% on the coins he sold in 2007, but his overhead costs were also 17%, then he made nothing. That's not a business, that's a charity.
Many Ebay sellers don't have the overhead this shop owner has. I think it's unfair of you to tell the shop owner that you pay such-and-such on Ebay. The store owner offers more value in the form of services and convenience than that Ebay seller does. He's not running an auction either. Maybe you should have compared him to another shop?
You mentioned you are in Chicago, so am I. Go Bears! Anyway, without bad-mouthing this shop, what shop(s) do you like? Do they give you the prices you expect? Or was this your first experience with this approach in a shop? I'm looking for a good shop.
Is the hobby dying? I don't know. I do know I'm not going to sell my collection at "60 (if not sooner)" like DoubleEagle59 stated. Perhaps he's more of a collector/investor and I'm more of a collector. People may be correct in that the market will drop when the boomers get out, that's when I'm really going to buy. Time is on my side!
If people would like to see more youth involvement, go talk to the youth and they will get involved. Get a Whitman Lincoln holder or two, have them on hand to give out. Challenge the youth to fill it. Easy to do if you TRY.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
There's another angle. There are a lot of older collectors entering the hobby for the first time for a couple of reasons. One, it's easy to get in and out thru the net. Another and most important, we have all the art, furniture and cars we need, but still want to collect.
I can remember a really well done piece in The Numismatist that I read a few years ago, making note of the graying of the collecting population and pointing out all the reasons that the hobby is not apt to survive as a dynamic group with broad support nationwide in the next generation.
The only problem with the article is that it was written by the great Canadian R.W. McLachlan -- in 1914.
My generation came to coins without the benefit of silver in circulation, or wheat cents, or even State quarters. I remember getting really excited to buy a Statue of Liberty commemorative set at KMart in 1986 and finding SBA $1s at a yard sale for $1.25 each. It wasn't pulling key dates from the change jar, but it was something.
Every generation will have their something, and there will be more humans in every next generation than the last.
John Kraljevich, Director of Numismatic Americana, Stack's Bowers Galleries
Gotta play the game to save the game. Here's what we do. Somebody hire a couple of kids and video tape them going thru dad's change jar to get a couple of bucks for, I don't know, whatever kids buy, then somebody shrieks "OMG!! I found a (fill in the widget), that's worth hella money!!". They all shriek and somebody falls off a chair. Post said video on youtube and hope it goes viral. Collecting becomes cool for thirteen year olds.
We're all born MS70. I'm about a Fine 15 right now.
Yeah, the collector bug doesn't die with a generation. It is a personality defect, a carryover survival instinct from our hunter-gatherer ancestors. eBay gives them plenty of exposure to coins. The only question is whether coins will endure over other collectibles for the subsequent generations.
Comments
<< <i>I'm 25, just turned this past October. I was never into coins, actually, they've been the furthest thing from my mind up until this past summer.The only things I've ever really cared about was music and girls. The only exposure I've ever had to coins was my dads Wheat Penny collection that I would screw around with when I was little. I found a Buffalo nickel at local field with my girlfriend and a buddy of mine. That's what got me curious and it took off from there, now I'm obsessed. But I show all my friends that stuff I've been buying and they all think it's insane and love looking at the stuff. I think most people have never really been exposed to coins aside from what they have in their pocket change. I had one friend the other night call me really late and ask me if he should buy some Morgans that he saw on TV. He wanted them because they were really old and silver, he thought it was cool. So now he's starting to get into the hobby. He was just never exposed to any types of coins before I don't think or maybe he was, but he was too busy doing the things that young people do. >>
Good post. I think is what we will see more of, people getting into it not as kids but as adults. Gotta remember folks, it's people like us who are driving the prices of finite numbers of coins up, so it's gonna be people like us age-wise who will fill our shoes cuz we made it an expensive game to play.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Good post. I think is what we will see more of, people getting into it not as kids but as adults. Gotta remember folks, it's people like us who are driving the prices of finite numbers of coins up, so it's gonna be people like us age-wise who will fill our shoes cuz we made it an expensive game to play. >>
Assuming that the future "people like us" have similar or larger amounts of disposable income as the current "people like us".
<< <i>Dying? Parts of it may just be. Clubs in particular are on that path. But as a whole, maybe changing, transforming or adjusting are more appropriate definitions of what's happening in the hobby today. >>
This is pretty close to the way I see the situation. People ignore
demographics at their own risk. This is the primary driver of every
market from potato chips to IBM stock. Collectors are getting older
and effectively have been since 1965. On average, as a group, and
discounting the newbies collecting states coins we have aged more
than twenty years since 1965.
It is these states collectors who are the next generation. You can
spin the facts any way you want but we older people will be, well,
older. Very few 75 and 85 year olds collect extensively. Indeed, his-
torically people tend to sell collections when they retire and the boom-
ers are just starting to retire. The states program is nearly ten years
old now so those kids who dropped out when they turned forteen or
fifteen near the beginning are starting to drift back to the hobby now.
These are young adults starting families so expenditures won't be
very high yet but some will have good income. This is thousands per
month coming back; all young, all looking to add to or complete sets.
In twenty five years they'll, as a group, own almost all of our coins.
I intend to be nice to them.
You'll have your occasional Q. David, or Dwight Manley, who stay active consistently from youth. But face it...in the aggregate...YNs don't have any money !!!
The coin hobby needs to target the late 20's and early middle agers. It's nice to be nice to kids...but to keep this hobby vibrant, we need to draw more folks like ME in the hobby....I picked it up seriously again at the age of 40.
This should be the ANA's job #1.
Consequentially, we have all realized that your precious card collection is virtually worthless do to mass production. I believe that fact has turned a lot of people my age off to collecting.
But with that said, I think a lot of people my age have fond memories of collecting cards and would like to replicate that experience through another, possibly more productive collection, in my case currency collecting, or in yours, coins.
<< <i>Speaking as a 22 year old, when I was younger no one collected coins at all, bottom line. But every single male I know age 20-28 has a huge collection of baseball and basketball cards.
Consequentially, we have all realized that your precious card collection is virtually worthless do to mass production. I believe that fact has turned a lot of people my age off to collecting.
But with that said, I think a lot of people my age have fond memories of collecting cards and would like to replicate that experience through another, possibly more productive collection, in my case currency collecting, or in yours, coins. >>
That is true. I have a massive card collection that is virtually worthless. However, I didn't care about the value of those cards into the past year or so when I needed some cash. I collected them when I was younger because I liked too.
http://myworld.ebay.com/crazyslasher27
Looking for someone to appraise a stamp collection I recently acquired. Please PM me if you can help!
It's her deal. No quite at the PCGS Slab buying level but, she is interested.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>I don't get the whole "coddle the YN" thing....Most people have a lot more pressing issues in their late teens and twenties...not to mention just getting financially started in the world...to keep the coin hobby going.
You'll have your occasional Q. David, or Dwight Manley, who stay active consistently from youth. But face it...in the aggregate...YNs don't have any money !!!
The coin hobby needs to target the late 20's and early middle agers. It's nice to be nice to kids...but to keep this hobby vibrant, we need to draw more folks like ME in the hobby....I picked it up seriously again at the age of 40.
This should be the ANA's job #1. >>
Don't get me wrong. I think everyone should be encouraged whether
they are four or eighty. There's no reason to have any sort of restric-
tion. I'm just saying that it's the kids who have gotten interested since
1998 who are going to be the nucleus of numismatics in 25 years.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Hobby dying? Think global. >>
Are 8 yr olds in France actively collecting?
<< <i>
<< <i>Hobby dying? Think global. >>
Are 8 yr olds in France actively collecting? >>
Not sure about the french , but it would not surprise me if the russians, brazilians, chinese and indians are. Yeah, on second thought I would throw in the Europeans too. Their economies are coming along too.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Hobby dying? Think global. >>
Are 8 yr olds in France actively collecting? >>
Not sure about the french , but it would not surprise me if the russians, brazilians, chinese and indians are. Yeah, on second thought I would throw in the Europeans too. Their economies are coming along too. >>
Dont confuse disposable income for adult hobbies with grass roots youthful collecting. The main reason these baby boomers are shelling out the big bucks on coins has something to do with nostalgia. If today's children arent collecting coins, why will they in 20 years when they have some "real" funds? Think about the musclecar market during the past 10-15 years. It has been fueled by baby boomers, their large pocketbooks, and a taste of their youth.
With all of the obvious pitfalls, numismatics has greatly benefitted from the rise of the internet. In fact, I can think of no other period that witnessed more focusedpower into the hobby. Information that used to be guarded by dealers and top collectors is now out there for any mensch with a rudimentary command of google. Third party grading has largely ushered in a blanket of consolidated trust, replacing the cancer of counterfeits, altered coins, and misrepresented AU sliders that dominated the hobby for decades. Remember when it seemed that nearly every 16-D dime or SVDB cent was and altered one? Now they are wading in eBay purgatory as raw or CW slabbed for the seriously uninitiated only.
The downside is a matter of demographics. The bourses are flooded with coin baalei tshuvim, middle-aged guys who are returning to the hobby of their youth now that they have money and resparked interest. YNs are VERY hard to come by. Coin collecting doesn't have the same attraction. We had the fire to find an SVDB or 55 DDO cent in change. Kids today hardly know what change is. Allowance is a gift certificate to The Gap or amazon.com. There is a lot of international interest in the hobby, but mainly at the investment grade side. Where are the kids at the coin club meetings? And I don't just mean Boy Scout types. Where are the 20-somethings, even 30-somethings? They can't all be getting tweaked on dope at some raves. I know; it's all that dating and sex distraction. It is also video games, the internet, ... Virtual stuff is a lot more fun and doesn't cost anything to insure. To have a future, we need to start doing things like getting a Dansco Jefferson album, magnifying glass and $40 in nickel rolls and sitting down on a rainy day with a child or neice or nephew and fill it up, then lookon eBay for deals on some of the missing ones. Nic-a-date and a pile of dateless Buffs works too. Anything to ignite a spark.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
Dave
<< <i> To have a future, we need to start doing things like getting a Dansco Jefferson album, magnifying glass and $40 in nickel rolls and sitting down on a rainy day with a child or neice or nephew and fill it up, then lookon eBay for deals on some of the missing ones. Nic-a-date and a pile of dateless Buffs works too. Anything to ignite a spark. >>
I've been saying this for years. It's great to get a kid interested
in neat coins like indian cents or Morgan dollars but they tend to
lose interest if they can't add to their collections. Getting them in-
terested in coins they can find or we can afford to continue to sup-
ply is a much better idea.
This is what makes the states program so great. Some will do it
without even any help or outside encouragement. But this isn't
sufficient to retain the largest possible number of kids and young
adults. They need encouragement and they need other things to
tackle. They need information and to feel they can belong if they
wish.
One way or the other the hobby will survive. This is a very crucial
juncture in numismatics as the torch is passed to the next genera-
tion. Let's just hope that it is considered important to protect it
from the elements. Let's hope they find as much fun and knowledge
as we have.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Also, Young Nuts (Myself included) like technology and the internet. I bet that ebay sales (volume wise) and dealers online inventory is just as hot as ever. You old people gotta get with the times.
I am concerned about demographics when it comes to collectibles in general. While I have collected coins for about 36 years, I tend to think coins is an acquired taste.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I don't know if your story really ties into your excellent question. A 32 year old's experience is quite a bit different than a child's.
I agree with Julian. I wasn't with you when you were at that shop, but based on what you wrote alone, I think some discretion may have helped. We're the other customers within earshot?
Also, perhaps if you prefaced your request with what your budget was ($$$$), then maybe the reaction may have been different. You mentioned "17% profit". I don't know enough about margins in the coin business to know if this is enough or not. But what you described is not profit, it's gross margin. If the store owner did a gross margin of 17% on the coins he sold in 2007, but his overhead costs were also 17%, then he made nothing. That's not a business, that's a charity.
Many Ebay sellers don't have the overhead this shop owner has. I think it's unfair of you to tell the shop owner that you pay such-and-such on Ebay. The store owner offers more value in the form of services and convenience than that Ebay seller does. He's not running an auction either. Maybe you should have compared him to another shop?
You mentioned you are in Chicago, so am I. Go Bears! Anyway, without bad-mouthing this shop, what shop(s) do you like? Do they give you the prices you expect? Or was this your first experience with this approach in a shop? I'm looking for a good shop.
Is the hobby dying? I don't know. I do know I'm not going to sell my collection at "60 (if not sooner)" like DoubleEagle59 stated. Perhaps he's more of a collector/investor and I'm more of a collector. People may be correct in that the market will drop when the boomers get out, that's when I'm really going to buy. Time is on my side!
If people would like to see more youth involvement, go talk to the youth and they will get involved. Get a Whitman Lincoln holder or two, have them on hand to give out. Challenge the youth to fill it. Easy to do if you TRY.
The only problem with the article is that it was written by the great Canadian R.W. McLachlan -- in 1914.
My generation came to coins without the benefit of silver in circulation, or wheat cents, or even State quarters. I remember getting really excited to buy a Statue of Liberty commemorative set at KMart in 1986 and finding SBA $1s at a yard sale for $1.25 each. It wasn't pulling key dates from the change jar, but it was something.
Every generation will have their something, and there will be more humans in every next generation than the last.
wait til all those 8 year olds who collect state quarters begin to collect the classics.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
And it's a good idea.