Milk Spotting On Silver Eagles & Ziploc Freezer Bags.....
Coll3ctor
Posts: 3,386 ✭✭✭
Many of these coins are developing milk spots in the fairly well sealed government issue capsules and in air-tight PCGS / NGC holders. Why then will placing them in a ziploc freezer bag help ? How are people getting all of the air out of the ziploc freezer bag ? Has anyone here placed their coins in a freezer bag and still had the spots appear ?
I just don't see how air can circulate in a air tight slab
I just don't see how air can circulate in a air tight slab
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<< <i>I just don't see how air can circulate in a air tight slab >>
I'm not sure I have seen the claim that the slab's are air tight, I may have missed it. Does anyone know if PCGS makes this claim??
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None of the biggies claim they have air tight slabs.
You need to do some more reading of old threads
As for how people get the air out....stay up real late at night and watch the infomericals. They talk about vacuum packing your food. That is the same thing people are doing.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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<< <i>I just don't see how air can circulate in a air tight slab >>
I'm not sure I have seen the claim that the slab's are air tight, I may have missed it. Does anyone know if PCGS makes this claim?? >>
Slabs are not air tight. When the barometric pressure goes up, air will enter the slab. When the barometric pressure goes down, air will leave the slab. In fact, one of the board members was caught buying white silver dollars in PCGS slabs and then ATing them within the slabs.
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O'well.... back to the vault tomorrow and I'll see how they look in another year from now
<< <i>Slabs are not airtight. >>
Nor are ziplock bags.
I vacumn seal all coins that I place in my safe for storage..
Creating a vacuum via the Zip-Locks is another thing. I toss in a couple of fresh dessicants and wrap so as to remove as much air as possible.
No milk spotting yet. Knock wood.
There is no slab I am aware of that is either air nor water tight.
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<< <i>Scientific testing has shown that Zip-Lock Freezer bags provide a much bettter seal than those vacuum bags seen on late night infomercials.
Creating a vacuum via the Zip-Locks is another thing. I toss in a couple of fresh dessicants and wrap so as to remove as much air as possible.
No milk spotting yet. Knock wood.
There is no slab I am aware of that is either air nor water tight. >>
What if they were sent to outer space...beyond the atmosphere? Isn't outer space the equivalent of a vacuum? Someone could create a satellite that stores slabbed coins and we could watch it cirlce the earth...put a blinker on it...a bright green blinker.
<< <i>Scientific testing has shown that Zip-Lock Freezer bags provide a much bettter seal than those vacuum bags seen on late night infomercials.
Creating a vacuum via the Zip-Locks is another thing. I toss in a couple of fresh dessicants and wrap so as to remove as much air as possible.
No milk spotting yet. Knock wood.
There is no slab I am aware of that is either air nor water tight. >>
My vacumn sealer is not one from late night infomercials.
I can put two identical items in bags, one a vacumn seal bag and the other in a ziplock and put them in the freezer. The ziplock bag will fill with moisture in just a few days. The vacumn seal bag does not leak. I know, I've had to use ziplocks when I ran out of vacumn seal bags.
By the way, do you have a link to these scientific tests???
<< <i>I can put two identical items in bags, one a vacumn seal bag and the other in a ziplock and put them in the freezer. The ziplock bag will fill with moisture in just a few days. >>
Which is why he puts dessicants in the bags.
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
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<< <i>I can put two identical items in bags, one a vacumn seal bag and the other in a ziplock and put them in the freezer. The ziplock bag will fill with moisture in just a few days. >>
Which is why he puts dessicants in the bags. >>
Oh, so they're not airtight.
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<< <i>I can put two identical items in bags, one a vacumn seal bag and the other in a ziplock and put them in the freezer. The ziplock bag will fill with moisture in just a few days. >>
Which is why he puts dessicants in the bags. >>
Oh, so they're not airtight. >>
Dessicants remove moisture. The point is, it does practically the same thing on the cheap. For what it's worth, one of the storage bag manufactures (I forget which one) has come out with a hand held vacuum bag sealer like 10 bucks at WallyWorld.
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
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<< <i>I can put two identical items in bags, one a vacumn seal bag and the other in a ziplock and put them in the freezer. The ziplock bag will fill with moisture in just a few days. >>
Which is why he puts dessicants in the bags. >>
Oh, so they're not airtight. >>
Dessicants remove moisture. The point is, it does practically the same thing on the cheap. For what it's worth, one of the storage bag manufactures (I forget which one) has come out with a hand held vacuum bag sealer like 10 bucks at WallyWorld. >>
Have you ever used one of the cheaper vacumn sealers??
They're totally useless.
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<< <i>I can put two identical items in bags, one a vacumn seal bag and the other in a ziplock and put them in the freezer. The ziplock bag will fill with moisture in just a few days. >>
Which is why he puts dessicants in the bags. >>
Oh, so they're not airtight. >>
Dessicants remove moisture. The point is, it does practically the same thing on the cheap. For what it's worth, one of the storage bag manufactures (I forget which one) has come out with a hand held vacuum bag sealer like 10 bucks at WallyWorld. >>
Have you ever used one of the cheaper vacumn sealers??
They're totally useless. >>
I haven't used any vacuum sealers, though I thought about picking up one of the new cheap ones to try out, on food, not coins though. I don't have a huge use for one, so I figure if it works for what I need, great, if not, I'm only out $10. As for my coins, all my silver (99% raw) remains spot free without any kind of bag or $800 magic voodoo sealing machine/zero gravity space capsule.
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
John
you guys should try to re-think this whole anomaly with the understanding that a Milk Spot is technically a strike through of a liquid residue on the planchet and not something that develops over time. the cause of the haze that you're seeing is almost certainly the result of some foreign substance which finds its way onto the coin's surface post-strike. given that for most part these ASE's are proving to be a problem waiting to happen for so many, it behooves me to understand why collectors don't rinse their raw examples in acetone at the earliest moment. as for the holdered coins, if they are proving to be a problem then perhaps the prudent thing to do is to avoid them.
<< <i>I love my Food Savor! I've vacuum sealed all my '06W and '07W's (both my slabbed ones and the ones in capsules) and they are trouble free so far, it's been about 6 months now! >>
Although vacuum sealing helps quite a bit, I have noticed even some holdered coins stored in food saver bags develop milk spots. I have stored all my silver coins in food saver bags and noticed some developing milk spots in the sealed bags. So I added a 1" desiccant bag inside each vac-sealed bag and this seems to do the trick. None of the holdered coins I have stored in this manner developed spotting.
Also, all of my raw coins that remained in mint capsules did not develop milk spots when stored in sealed bags. This is even without the added little desiccant bag, although I have since added them and resealed the bags for added protection.
I work in an environmental testing lab that includes thermal vacuum testing and can give this advice... It takes a long time to remove contaminants (including mosture) and air to create an acceptable vacuum. The vac sealing machines you buy in Wal-Mart and other stores DO NOT create a total vacuum by far!!!! Many contaminents including mosture remain in the bag after it has been sealed. This means your coins are exposed to mosture in the bag. This moisture does not evaporate due to being trapped in the bag. It is a small amount of moisture compared to not vac-sealing, which a 1" desiccant bag should help to absorb in the bag. The bag still has a small amount of air even though it has been "sealed". This air helps transfer the moisture into the desiccant bag. To create an acceptable vacuum that guarantees removal of moisture, air molecules, and most contaminants, you need a multi-thousand dollar machine to create a much better vacuum than what any commercial vac sealer can possibly do.
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<< <i>Why can't the industry just accept milk spotting as a naturally occuring process? Natural toning is accepted and doesn't detract from the grade of a coin, why should milk spotting? Think of it as Spot Toning! >>
Corrosion is natural as well but you'll have to dance a pretty jig to make people accept that.
Hint: it's ugly.
<< <i>Why can't the industry just accept milk spotting as a naturally occuring process? Natural toning is accepted and doesn't detract from the grade of a coin, why should milk spotting? Think of it as Spot Toning! >>
Ugly toning is detrimental to a coin's appearance and value. Spotting is in the same class.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Almost sounds like keeping coins is more work than finding them.
<< <i>Many of these coins are developing milk spots
you guys should try to re-think this whole anomaly with the understanding that a Milk Spot is technically a strike through of a liquid residue on the planchet and not something that develops over time. the cause of the haze that you're seeing is almost certainly the result of some foreign substance which finds its way onto the coin's surface post-strike. given that for most part these ASE's are proving to be a problem waiting to happen for so many, it behooves me to understand why collectors don't rinse their raw examples in acetone at the earliest moment. as for the holdered coins, if they are proving to be a problem then perhaps the prudent thing to do is to avoid them. >>
So first off why can't the Mint or whoever supplies the planchets effen get it right the first time by using pure water to rinse them? It would seem that the milk spots are kinda like waterspots on dishes from a dishwasher that uses hard water. How do you know the coins are struck from planchets with water droplets on them? There would be dents in the coin surface where the water drops were if that was true. It would seem that striking pressure forces the wash residue into the surface. Since the residue is likely not acetone soluble I don't see how acetone rinsing will help. Maybe it would if the wash water actually had a rinse aid like Glass Magic or Jet Dry or some other surfactant added to it, but unless smoeone who works in the planchet production area tells us we don't know that.
It sounds more like they don't care/try.
These are bullion to them, selling at a premium.
Maybe if PCGS, NGC, NN, CW, and others with some pull actually talked to Moy and crew and tried to get something done...?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
you are in a way making my point for me with the above reply.
it's my understanding from the innumerable threads about this subject that when the supposed "milkspots" that the OP is talking about suddenly appear, they can be rinsed/removed with an acetone bath. a true Milkspot wouldn't come off since it is in fact a part of the coin's surface, impressed into it by the strike. it might be lessened to a degree so it isn't as noticable but it's there for the long haul.
as to the Mint and rinsing the planchets with pure water, it isn't that simple. the manufacturing process leaves a residue on the planchets that's generally petroleum based. that needs to be removed; during the 1950-1970 timeframe Rick Tomaska alledges that the Mint actually used Ivory Dishsoap in solution to rinse the planchets. i assume that we've reached the point in time where the sheer number of items being produced by the Mint precludes certain things from being done throughout the minting process, but for the most part no Milkspotting happens on either Proof or MS coins. what we are seeing is post production of some sort, so it seems that a collector who is overly concerned about spotting would simply rinse the coins and then store them properly to prevent any further possibility of contaminants causing a problem.
<< <i>....only the ones in slabs were milk spotted of which totaled 56. ...
Which brings me back, again, to the point I've been making all along on this issue, which is the shipping back and forth and all the handling of these bullion slugs is what is contributing the most to milk spotting. I know these things will spot in OGP too but there are far more examples from what I've been reading, and seeing, of spotting happening to coins that have been slabbed.
If you do not want your SAEs to develop milk spots, your best bet, aside from common sense storage practices, is to leave them alone in their OGP and don't ship them off to companies to remove from their OGP, fondle, breathe on, whatever, and slab. Leave them as they are.