Does not work for me. In some ways it is marketing hype to convince collectors to buy coins with a more lucrative profit margin for the dealers. Wasn't this phrase coined by a dealer in high end coins?
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>Does not work for me. In some ways it is marketing hype to convince collectors to buy coins with a more lucrative profit margin for the dealers. Wasn't this phrase coined by a dealer in high end coins? >>
No...it's an question posed by a very passionate collector who doesn't drink any Dealer KoolAde.
There are an abundance or good reasons why it works well but many have been stated and you seem to have made up your mind. You should just have left "it at it doesn't work for me."
Ive always liked it...but I understand that it isnt for everyone. I kind of have a box of 20 for different collections. Three boxes of 20 really.
I have one for the certain American type coins that I really like in high grade UNC/Proof.....Seated/Bust/SLQ's/Trimes/Mercs/Amazing Misc. I am shooting for a box of 20 on those.
I then have a box of 20 for perfect midgrade circs and another for my Swiss. It works well. If I could only find 20 that fit my standards!!
For a kid, any number of coins that they like is a collection. Something they want and like and grow more with. So, sure, 6 large cents is a collection at that point.
Now, as a kid, DID you make up your mind to get no more of them because you had a set number that you wanted?
A person should collect what they want and how many they want. There is no 100% answer that fits everyone. I still stand by my opinion that, for adults who claim they only want a collection of 20 (arbitrary number, imho), it is more of an investment thing. Get rid of the excess and regain the capital. No more outlay for coins past 20. Too many people want to say "oooohhhh....20 is the magic number. If you collect more than that you must be an accumulator or you don't have focus". Same kind of thing that you just took offense to when I said "investor", right?
If someone has collected and is temporarily burned out (or even permanently), and keeps only a small portion of their collection, then that is still a collector but, if that person is no longer active, are they truly a "collector"?
There is way too much of people trying to fit into a certain peg (modern/classic/investor/collector/flipper/hoarder/etc) around here. And people that scream so much about NOT being a koolaide drinker are generally the biggest drinkers of them all (koolaide and otherwise ).
For me there is no set number of coins (box of 20 is a concept rather than a rule). I have tried the series thing and just don't enjoy it. I'd much rather have a small number of really nice coins that a large number of OK coins. I have also decided to keep my monetary outlay stable as I feel that I have spent enough already and would rather put that money toward retirement. So now, if I want to add anything really significant to my collection I will sell something else to fund it.
I am not taking it personally, but I am taking it seriously.
As a collector, I see know reason why limiting a collection to a certain number of pieces makes one more an investor and than a collector. By that logic, any collection that has boundaries is automatically an investment. And any aimlessly acquired hoard of coins is a collection???
A collection of large cents, or "D" gold coins, is a collection. 1 coin can be a collection (imho). Setting an "artificial" boundary is what, to me, makes it more of an investment.
Aimlessly acquiring coins is how I started my collecting but I do consider it more of accumulation. Kind of depends on your "sophistication" as a collection and others views. Which, as always, shouldn't matter.
Here is what I wrote in a thread earlier this year regarding this subject-
<< <i>I've long thought about the Bo20 concept and although I have more than 20 coins, I have never been able to find 20 that I would categorize as "worthy" using my definition of the concept. Currently, I have about 18 coins that would satisfy my definition for such a project. While I do not allow this to limit my collection, I am quite happy to allow it to influence my collection. >>
This is how I collect, it is not marketing or hype; however it may certainly be thought of as having some degree of investment or value protection. I have collected full sets in the past, though aside from the 73-coin behemouth of a set for Barber half dollars, all the sets have been only a few coins in total. The collecting and completion of these sets taught me that I do not like to be restricted in such a manner when it comes to my discretionary spending on coins. Therefore, I would likely be someone who might be looked at as not having a collecting focus, which would be entirely incorrect. My collecting interests are primarily superb MS or PF type; original, dark, circulated VF-EF early Federal coinage (especially better dates); wildly toned, high grade, Mint Set-derived, silver Washington quarters; and crusty, gunky matte proof Lincolns. This might be viewed as having no unifying theme, but to me there is a theme and that theme is that each coin is choice for what it is. The current, hypothetical Bo20 that I have contains perhaps nine circulated coins and nine high grade MS or PF coins and I do not believe there is any series that is represented more than once. The remainder of my collection also has value to me, but I know where my collecting priorities lie.
I have a killer box of 26 on the way to a box of 137. (Complete U.S. type set) My current favorites are a 1795 half dime PCGS MS67 and a 1796 quarter NGC MS64 PL (my icon).
It's a painful transition that is sure to bring upon major separation anxiety, as I feel this would have to be done in stages. I'm gonna see if I can get down to a box of 60. Gosh if we all went for 20, could you imagine the amount of fresh material that would hit the market.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
<< <i>I have a killer box of 26 on the way to a box of 137. (Complete U.S. type set) My current favorites are a 1795 half dime PCGS MS67 and a 1796 quarter NGC MS64 PL (my icon). >>
It's a painful transition that is sure to bring upon major separation anxiety, as I feel this would have to be done in stages. I'm gonna see if I can get down to a box of 60. Gosh if we all went for 20, could you imagine the amount of fresh material that would hit the market. >>
<< <i>Since we know that selling a large matched set brings more money at auction ... therefore set collectors must all be investors >>
Is that true? I was thinking the opposite......I really think the recent pattern sale is an example, sure it was a boat load of money but individually I think you could make a reasonable argument the break up value woiuld be higher, albeit a pain to liquidate. ...Ah, but what do I know
<< <i>Setting an "artificial" boundary is what, to me, makes it more of an investment. >>
It's not the boundary, it's the goal. Every collection has some sort of restrictions placed on it. Saying to oneself, "Self, I'm going to see how awesome of a collection I can make using only 20 coins" is setting a goal for a collection. I could replace "only 20 coins" with 1878-P Morgan dollars, bust half dimes, first year type coins, coins from the year in which my great grandparents were married, etc. Much different than saying, "Self, I'm going to see how much money I can make by building a coin trading portfolio cointaining no more than 20 coins."
It all depends on how smart you are in setting your goals. For example, a Bo20 works nicely for 1793 cents by die variety. (Good luck finding the 21st coin!)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That would be the easiest way. It would also make for one hell of a feeding frenzy for $1M+ coins as the well-heeled compete for top spots.
I know of no one owning $1M coins that gives a crapola about 'competing for top spots' in the Registry. They've got better goals to pay attention to...
<< <i>That would be the easiest way. It would also make for one hell of a feeding frenzy for $1M+ coins as the well-heeled compete for top spots.
I know of no one owning $1M coins that gives a crapola about 'competing for top spots' in the Registry. They've got better goals to pay attention to... >>
<< <i>That would be the easiest way. It would also make for one hell of a feeding frenzy for $1M+ coins as the well-heeled compete for top spots.
I know of no one owning $1M coins that gives a crapola about 'competing for top spots' in the Registry. They've got better goals to pay attention to... >>
<< <i>That would be the easiest way. It would also make for one hell of a feeding frenzy for $1M+ coins as the well-heeled compete for top spots.
I know of no one owning $1M coins that gives a crapola about 'competing for top spots' in the Registry. They've got better goals to pay attention to... >>
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>Arrrgh - not the box of 20 thread again!! >>
Oh as if there are BETTER threads here?? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTT!! >>
I had to go back to the other threads to sure I wasn't simply repeating myself. But I should have just cut and paste like Tom did. Don't worry, StG, you'll hit on something original someday.
Box of 20? I just bought 30 Sacs. I do keep a note by my desk and on my quotron that says...Collect the Keys! Easier said than done, especially as interests change from month to month. Can't help but adding to the collection.
"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
<< <i>You should just have left "it at it doesn't work for me." >>
???
<< <i>No...it's an question posed by a very passionate collector who doesn't drink any Dealer KoolAde >>
N My question was posed by a very passionate collector who doesn't drink any dealer KoolAid. Was the "box of twenty" phrase started by Jay Parrino? If not, I stand corrected.
<< <i>No...it's an question posed by a very passionate collector who doesn't drink any Dealer KoolAde >>
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
If Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Ford etc each collected a box of 20, would they still be remembered today?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The box of 20 again... okay... but remember that you asked for my thoughts...
A box of 20 is not collecting , it is investing and there is a significant difference. Collectors collect because there is something that attracts them to whatever it is that they collect. It can be out of art, beauty, craftsmanship, personalities, design and that is the motivating factor... not the investment return.
Limiting coins to merely a box of 20 clearly implies that there is a high probabilty there will be very few series of coin sets completed within. While a complete set is not the best measure to judge the success of a collection, neither is the self imposed limitation of 20 coins... from just about every perspective, except an investment perspective, it reeks of not exploring what is required to develop a reasonable appreciation for coins... all coins.
Is that really collecting?
Not unless you are doing something significant "outside the box", and if you are, you have my blessing.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I like the box of twenty approach. I downsized/focused my collection a few years ago. I now have 29 coins. I am not a slave (obviously) to the "20" part, but I do find that I collect the coins I really like - and have focused my collection more. I know I enjoy the collection more.
I still have a few coins I really should part with, and am still looking to obtain more coins. I'd rather have a few exciting coins than a mass of coins.
To each their own. I had full sets and accumulations for the better part of 20 years, and I am happier now with my smaller, focused, collection.
"A box of 20 is not collecting , it is investing and there is a significant difference."
I keep seeing this type of response and it is curious. So, you collect slabbed modern quarters, say a state quarter collection of your favorite designs and that's your box of 20 that you set aside as your favorite coins of what you collect. Sure they should be nice, sure they should satisfy you but it is difficult to say that they are an investment. Just because you are collecting at the top of your ability and understanding doesn't mean you are spending investment grade money. So, what does your favorite box of 20 first tier slab silver proof state quarters cost? What $200 at $10 apiece...not really investment grade money, unless you are collecting from paper route job money in which case it represents a lot to you individually, as much as you can dedicate to your OCD at that time. Hey, it's YOUR box, go for it.
The box of 20 isn't for everyone, some folk have to have sets, sans stoppers probably, but sets none the less. The box of 20 is not the same mindset as D/MM set collecting or run collecting, it's just a convenient way to really focus on your area of specialty and interest. If the box happens to be worth a lot of money, or an investment grade endeavor...that is inconsequential to the box of 20 concept.
Comments
<< <i>Does not work for me. In some ways it is marketing hype to convince collectors to buy coins with a more lucrative profit margin for the dealers. Wasn't this phrase coined by a dealer in high end coins? >>
No...it's an question posed by a very passionate collector who doesn't drink any Dealer KoolAde.
There are an abundance or good reasons why it works well but many have been stated and you seem to have made up your mind. You should just have left "it at it doesn't work for me."
I have one for the certain American type coins that I really like in high grade UNC/Proof.....Seated/Bust/SLQ's/Trimes/Mercs/Amazing Misc. I am shooting for a box of 20 on those.
I then have a box of 20 for perfect midgrade circs and another for my Swiss. It works well. If I could only find 20 that fit my standards!!
siliconvalleycoins.com
siliconvalleycoins.com
siliconvalleycoins.com
You are taking it too personally.
For a kid, any number of coins that they like is a collection. Something they want and like and grow more with.
So, sure, 6 large cents is a collection at that point.
Now, as a kid, DID you make up your mind to get no more of them because you had a set number that you wanted?
A person should collect what they want and how many they want. There is no 100% answer that fits everyone. I still stand by my opinion that, for adults who claim they only want a collection of 20 (arbitrary number, imho), it is more of an investment thing. Get rid of the excess and regain the capital. No more outlay for coins past 20.
Too many people want to say "oooohhhh....20 is the magic number. If you collect more than that you must be an accumulator or you don't have focus". Same kind of thing that you just took offense to when I said "investor", right?
If someone has collected and is temporarily burned out (or even permanently), and keeps only a small portion of their collection, then that is still a collector but, if that person is no longer active, are they truly a "collector"?
There is way too much of people trying to fit into a certain peg (modern/classic/investor/collector/flipper/hoarder/etc) around here.
And people that scream so much about NOT being a koolaide drinker are generally the biggest drinkers of them all (koolaide and otherwise
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I do what I chose to do. No dealer is selling me a program.
I am not taking it personally, but I am taking it seriously.
As a collector, I see know reason why limiting a collection to a certain number of pieces makes one more an investor and than a collector. By that logic, any collection that has boundaries is automatically an investment. And any aimlessly acquired hoard of coins is a collection???
1 coin can be a collection (imho).
Setting an "artificial" boundary is what, to me, makes it more of an investment.
Aimlessly acquiring coins is how I started my collecting but I do consider it more of accumulation. Kind of depends on your "sophistication" as a collection and others views.
Which, as always, shouldn't matter.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I've long thought about the Bo20 concept and although I have more than 20 coins, I have never been able to find 20 that I would categorize as "worthy" using my definition of the concept. Currently, I have about 18 coins that would satisfy my definition for such a project. While I do not allow this to limit my collection, I am quite happy to allow it to influence my collection. >>
This is how I collect, it is not marketing or hype; however it may certainly be thought of as having some degree of investment or value protection. I have collected full sets in the past, though aside from the 73-coin behemouth of a set for Barber half dollars, all the sets have been only a few coins in total. The collecting and completion of these sets taught me that I do not like to be restricted in such a manner when it comes to my discretionary spending on coins. Therefore, I would likely be someone who might be looked at as not having a collecting focus, which would be entirely incorrect. My collecting interests are primarily superb MS or PF type; original, dark, circulated VF-EF early Federal coinage (especially better dates); wildly toned, high grade, Mint Set-derived, silver Washington quarters; and crusty, gunky matte proof Lincolns. This might be viewed as having no unifying theme, but to me there is a theme and that theme is that each coin is choice for what it is. The current, hypothetical Bo20 that I have contains perhaps nine circulated coins and nine high grade MS or PF coins and I do not believe there is any series that is represented more than once. The remainder of my collection also has value to me, but I know where my collecting priorities lie.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Who is John Galt?
It's a painful transition that is sure to bring upon major separation anxiety, as I feel this would have to be done in stages. I'm gonna see if I can get down to a box of 60. Gosh if we all went for 20, could you imagine the amount of fresh material that would hit the market.
<< <i>I have a killer box of 26 on the way to a box of 137. (Complete U.S. type set) My current favorites are a 1795 half dime PCGS MS67 and a 1796 quarter NGC MS64 PL (my icon). >>
VERY NICE!!!
<< <i>It's all a matter of CHOICE....
It's a painful transition that is sure to bring upon major separation anxiety, as I feel this would have to be done in stages. I'm gonna see if I can get down to a box of 60. Gosh if we all went for 20, could you imagine the amount of fresh material that would hit the market.
And the amount of trash.
<< <i>Since we know that selling a large matched set brings more money at auction ... therefore set collectors must all be investors >>
Is that true? I was thinking the opposite......I really think the recent pattern sale is an example, sure it was a boat load of money but individually I think you could make a reasonable argument the break up value woiuld be higher, albeit a pain to liquidate. ...Ah, but what do I know
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
<< <i>Setting an "artificial" boundary is what, to me, makes it more of an investment. >>
It's not the boundary, it's the goal. Every collection has some sort of restrictions placed on it. Saying to oneself, "Self, I'm going to see how awesome of a collection I can make using only 20 coins" is setting a goal for a collection. I could replace "only 20 coins" with 1878-P Morgan dollars, bust half dimes, first year type coins, coins from the year in which my great grandparents were married, etc. Much different than saying, "Self, I'm going to see how much money I can make by building a coin trading portfolio cointaining no more than 20 coins."
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
It all depends on how smart you are in setting your goals. For example, a Bo20 works nicely for 1793 cents by die variety. (Good luck finding the 21st coin!)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I know of no one owning $1M coins that gives a crapola about 'competing for top spots' in the Registry. They've got better goals to pay attention to...
<< <i>That would be the easiest way. It would also make for one hell of a feeding frenzy for $1M+ coins as the well-heeled compete for top spots.
I know of no one owning $1M coins that gives a crapola about 'competing for top spots' in the Registry. They've got better goals to pay attention to... >>
I hate myself.
I AGREE!
<< <i>
<< <i>That would be the easiest way. It would also make for one hell of a feeding frenzy for $1M+ coins as the well-heeled compete for top spots.
I know of no one owning $1M coins that gives a crapola about 'competing for top spots' in the Registry. They've got better goals to pay attention to... >>
I hate myself.
I AGREE!
We agree twice - I hate yourself, too!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That would be the easiest way. It would also make for one hell of a feeding frenzy for $1M+ coins as the well-heeled compete for top spots.
I know of no one owning $1M coins that gives a crapola about 'competing for top spots' in the Registry. They've got better goals to pay attention to... >>
I hate myself.
I AGREE!
We agree twice - I hate yourself, too!
You Sperbers aways "stick together".
<< <i>Arrrgh - not the box of 20 thread again!!
Oh as if there are BETTER threads here?? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTT!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Arrrgh - not the box of 20 thread again!!
Oh as if there are BETTER threads here?? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTT!!
I had to go back to the other threads to sure I wasn't simply repeating myself. But I should have just cut and paste like Tom did. Don't worry, StG, you'll hit on something original someday.
<< <i>You should just have left "it at it doesn't work for me." >>
???
<< <i>No...it's an question posed by a very passionate collector who doesn't drink any Dealer KoolAde >>
N
My question was posed by a very passionate collector who doesn't drink any dealer KoolAid.
Was the "box of twenty" phrase started by Jay Parrino? If not, I stand corrected.
<< <i>No...it's an question posed by a very passionate collector who doesn't drink any Dealer KoolAde >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Ford etc each collected a box of 20, would they still be remembered today? >>
It's not as though collecting by the box-of-twenty concept would keep me from glory I'd otherwise attain.
<< <i>
<< <i>If Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Ford etc each collected a box of 20, would they still be remembered today? >>
It's not as though collecting by the box-of-twenty concept would keep me from glory I'd otherwise attain. >>
Well said. You had no chance of being mentioned in the same sentence as those folks.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Ford etc each collected a box of 20, would they still be remembered today? >>
It's not as though collecting by the box-of-twenty concept would keep me from glory I'd otherwise attain. >>
Well said. You had no chance of being mentioned in the same sentence as those folks.
Ouch, right up there with 'Mr. Sperber'.
If this thread continues, we're gonna need a scoreboard so spectators like me can keep track.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Ford etc each collected a box of 20, would they still be remembered today? >>
It's not as though collecting by the box-of-twenty concept would keep me from glory I'd otherwise attain. >>
Well said. You had no chance of being mentioned in the same sentence as those folks.
But I came awfully close. TDN looked at my coins and said, "Your collection is the pits, man."
perfect for a type set
1/2 cent
cent
2 cent
3 cent
5 cent
10 cent
20 cent
25 cent
50 cent
1 dollar
2 1/2 dollar
3 dollar
4 dollar
5 dollar
10 dollar
20 dollar
commem
colonial
error
pattern
repeat until out of funds or space.....
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Ford etc each collected a box of 20, would they still be remembered today? >>
It's not as though collecting by the box-of-twenty concept would keep me from glory I'd otherwise attain. >>
Well said. You had no chance of being mentioned in the same sentence as those folks.
But I came awfully close. TDN looked at my coins and said, "Your collection is the pits, man."
Registry
<< <i>
<< <i>Arrrgh - not the box of 20 thread again!!
Oh as if there are BETTER threads here?? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTT!!
Yeah....any modern 1st spouse thread
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Ford etc each collected a box of 20, would they still be remembered today? >>
It's not as though collecting by the box-of-twenty concept would keep me from glory I'd otherwise attain. >>
Well said. You had no chance of being mentioned in the same sentence as those folks.
Ouch, right up there with 'Mr. Sperber'.
If this thread continues, we're gonna need a scoreboard so spectators like me can keep track. >>
Actually, my response to: "If Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Ford etc each collected a box of 20, would they still be remembered today?"
was going to be:
"Yeah, but I am in no danger of being mentioned in the same sentence with those guys," but Lou's reply was much sharper and more eloquent.
A box of 20 is not collecting , it is investing and there is a significant difference. Collectors collect because there is something that attracts them to whatever it is that they collect. It can be out of art, beauty, craftsmanship, personalities, design and that is the motivating factor... not the investment return.
Limiting coins to merely a box of 20 clearly implies that there is a high probabilty there will be very few series of coin sets completed within. While a complete set is not the best measure to judge the success of a collection, neither is the self imposed limitation of 20 coins... from just about every perspective, except an investment perspective, it reeks of not exploring what is required to develop a reasonable appreciation for coins... all coins.
Is that really collecting?
Not unless you are doing something significant "outside the box", and if you are, you have my blessing.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
siliconvalleycoins.com
I still have a few coins I really should part with, and am still looking to obtain more coins. I'd rather have a few exciting coins than a mass of coins.
To each their own. I had full sets and accumulations for the better part of 20 years, and I am happier now with my smaller, focused, collection.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I keep seeing this type of response and it is curious. So, you collect slabbed modern quarters, say a state quarter collection of your favorite designs and that's your box of 20 that you set aside as your favorite coins of what you collect. Sure they should be nice, sure they should satisfy you but it is difficult to say that they are an investment. Just because you are collecting at the top of your ability and understanding doesn't mean you are spending investment grade money. So, what does your favorite box of 20 first tier slab silver proof state quarters cost? What $200 at $10 apiece...not really investment grade money, unless you are collecting from paper route job money in which case it represents a lot to you individually, as much as you can dedicate to your OCD at that time. Hey, it's YOUR box, go for it.
The box of 20 isn't for everyone, some folk have to have sets, sans stoppers probably, but sets none the less. The box of 20 is not the same mindset as D/MM set collecting or run collecting, it's just a convenient way to really focus on your area of specialty and interest. If the box happens to be worth a lot of money, or an investment grade endeavor...that is inconsequential to the box of 20 concept.
Coin ON!