Is there anything about our hobby or business that you truly don't understand?

MrEureka · November 18, 2007 5:27AM

Is there anything about our hobby or business that you truly don't understand?

Post your question to this thread and prepare to be enlightened!

I'm not looking for questions where you already know the answer. For example, we all know the answer to "Why do people collect modern crap?", even if we think collecting modern crap is dumb. (Personally, I don't think it's dumb.)

Instead, post a question where you really don't know the answer, and where there just might be a correct answer.

I'll start:

Since the market has grown so much in the past ten years, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a significant increase in the number of Brick & Mortar coin shops. Can you explain this?

doh · November 18, 2007 5:29AM

There hasn't been an increase of B&M shops because of eBay. It's incredibly difficult to support a family by owning a coin shop now that the Internet has provided a place to buy and sell competitively.

STONE · November 18, 2007 5:31AM

I would think this would directly be affected by the major/ larger auction companies and/ or larger dealers cleaning up all the great coins.

Just my asessment

EricSan · November 18, 2007 5:31AM

I don't know why there aren't more coin shops in towns... Perhaps it has to do with increasing property costs as well? Always harder for the new guy (in any field) than for the already established guy?

My Question: Why is a 2001s proof Sac worth so much more than each of the other proof dates (either raw of slabbed)? Its not the lowest mintage for the proofs.

Eric

BlindedByEgo · November 18, 2007 5:33AM

How can many dealers look themselves in the mirror when they rip old widows and cripples? And no, I'm not being funny.

JoeLewis · November 18, 2007 5:35AM

Here's two that I don't understand:

1. Why does the mint still put reeded edges on coins when the original purpose of the reeded edge is no longer an issue?

2. Since we are no longer using precious metals in coins, why don't we just look for the cheapest possible metal (or plastic) to use? Is there anything special about copper and nickel?

roadrunner · November 18, 2007 5:37AM

Why does it seem that the more honest a dealer is the worse they do for themselves? And of course the opposite, why does it seem that the dealers who profit the most on the national scene tend to be the biggest scammers? One would logically think that the public would figure this out and eventually reduce the business given to the schemers. Yet it's exactly backwards.

roadrunner

MORGANHUNTER2 · November 18, 2007 5:38AM

Why would a dealer second guess the grade of a coin in an accepted TPG's holder?
*thus telling you it is not a msXX but a msWW(lower).
Without an independent Certifying Authenticating companies word.

Swampboy · November 18, 2007 5:40AM

As someone who has just gotten back into the hobby I can tell you I'm buying on ebay, from memebers with websites and the BST.

No matter how bad an online or ebay transaction goes it's better than having a shop keeper insult you to your face.

Sheesh!!!

bidask · November 18, 2007 5:42AM

<< Is there anything about our hobby or business that you truly don't understand?

Post your question to this thread and prepare to be enlightened!

I'm not looking for questions where you already know the answer. For example, we all know the answer to "Why do people collect modern crap?", even if we think collecting modern crap is dumb. (Personally, I don't think it's dumb.)

Instead, post a question where you really don't know the answer, and where there just might be a correct answer.

I'll start:

Since the market has grown so much in the past ten years, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a significant increase in the number of Brick & Mortar coin shops. Can you explain this? >>

I could not rip the public, like many B an M owners do. In other words it takes a certain kind of dealer to be B and M.

JRocco · November 18, 2007 5:42AM

Hey Andy.

Is it true that some submitters to TPG companies (not singling any company out)
tend to get borderline coins holdered when the average collector who sends a dozen coins a year
in tends to get those borderline coins bagged?

By borderline, I am talking questionable color or altered surfaces, or coins with rim bumps/scratches.

roadrunner · November 18, 2007 5:43AM

Why do collectors pay more for a circ better date coin than the unc of the same version?

Examples: a VF 1866 quarter brings more than an MS62/63
or a VF 1904-0 quarter brings more than an MS62. I don't get this and probably never will. Can't I stick the uncs in my pocket and increase their value as they approach VF??

roadrunner

coinsarefun · November 18, 2007 5:46AM

How is Ebay and other various website auction's coupled with the instant internet freeway of knowledge affecting the common but, accurate grade/ great eye appeal coin market.

bidask · November 18, 2007 5:47AM

As a seperate question, with the global economy and age of the internet, why hasn't collecting foreign coins caught on more in our country in general or compared to mint moderns? I think that is the future.

roadrunner · November 18, 2007 5:48AM

Is it true that some submitters to TPG companies (not singling any company out)
tend to get borderline coins holdered when the average collector who sends a dozen coins a year
in tends to get those borderline coins bagged?

By borderline, I am talking questionable color or altered surfaces, or coins with rim bumps/scratches.

I wouldn't have thought this was really the case but a recent consignment to a major auction house changed my mind. I submitted some raw problem coins that I could not get holdered.
These were mistake purchases from over the years. I decided to dump the whole group and get at least something back on my money. Imagine my surprise when the auction house recommends resubmitting them all because they think they will grade out. And wouldn't ya know everyone of them got a grade at about the level I was in at. Even if some appeared to be net graded they got a grade. Even a horrible example of a poorly AT'd commem that I should have been tarred and feathered for buying about 10 yrs ago ended up slabbed as a 65. Go figure!

This whole event really changed my thinking about who gets what graded as what....and to not be so quick to give up on schlock. Note that I had submitted some of these coins 3 or 4 times to get a stinking grade on them. The auction house got grades on all of them on the FIRST try for all of them. That's pretty odd huh? Bottom line.....they WERE getting grades I was not getting nor other submitters weren't getting who tried some of these for me as well.

And I was submitting these coins all raw to take my medicine. I was prepared to take my overdue beating. It was the auction house who took the action to slab them. I had nothing to do with that decision and would have preferred them to stay raw because I honestly felt NONE would slab and could bring more if left in the raw state......boy was I wrong.

roadrunner

tydye · November 18, 2007 5:53AM

Where is the true wholesale (liquidity) in relation to greysheet. I am assuming it varies for each series. On stuff like Morgans and proof sets it seems way back. On other items like Liberty Seated and Bust wholesale seems at or above. Assume problem free spot on for the grade items. Why cant greysheet or some other venue put out an accurate wholesale guide that most geniuine dealers that carry that type of merchandise would be willing to pay.

savoyspecial · November 18, 2007 5:57AM

i have one:
Why do people treat SEGS like 3rd world slabs when they without question will tell you that Larry Briggs is one of the best in the biz for authentication and grading?

greg

MrEureka · November 18, 2007 5:58AM

Is it true that some submitters to TPG companies (not singling any company out)
tend to get borderline coins holdered when the average collector who sends a dozen coins a year
in tends to get those borderline coins bagged?

By borderline, I am talking questionable color or altered surfaces, or coins with rim bumps/scratches.

I've never seen any evidence that any submitters get favored treatment with respect to grades and bodybags. However, the biggest submitters tend to submit coins as many times as it takes to get the desired grade, at least for coins with significant value. So when you look through their coins, it seems like they get grades you're not getting. Of course, innocent or not, the end result is the same.

MrEureka · November 18, 2007 6:01AM

Why do people treat SEGS like 3rd world slabs when they without question will tell you that Larry Briggs is one of the best in the biz for authentication and grading?

Funny, I've never heard anyone bash SEGS and then praise Larry's grading.

PerryHall · November 18, 2007 6:09AM

Why do the TPG's reward people with higher grades when they crack out original coins so they can dip them and then resubmit them.

Coxe · November 18, 2007 6:09AM

We minted on the order of a billion Buffalo nickels. These are durable and probably didn't get skimmed off as end-of-life by the banks/gov't. The numbers far exceed anything this hobby could absorb. There is no precious metal incentive to hoard or melt (well...until veyr recently that is). So.....where are all of them? Where is the vast majority?

Personally, I don't see why they aren't still circulating and why we need to mint so many more each year.

oldwestgold · November 18, 2007 6:12AM

Why do some BM dealers keep the same material in inventory for months or even years, and won't accept a fair market value(slightly lower) to move the merchandise? This seems like a self defeating business practice to me. I've offered good money on items, been turned down, go back 4 months later, offer on the same item, been turned down again and so on and so forth. Makes no sense.

oldwestgold · November 18, 2007 6:13AM

<< Why do the TPG's reward people with higher grades when they crack out original coins so they can dip them and then resubmit them. >>

Great question

roadrunner · November 18, 2007 6:15AM

Why are the CDN editors so slow to keep prices updated even when they have data that says they are way off? Better date bust and seated coin prices would be a place to start considering that most every S mint silver coin in the 1860's is drastically underpriced from circ to unc. With recent auction results continually confirming better dates bringing 2X to 4X the listed CDN prices why don't they update?
Isn't that their job to watch auction trends and bourse floor transactions? If they aren't doing that what are they doing to keep up with price changes?

Since this is Coin DEALER Newsletter the reason could be as simple as to allow dealers to continue to buy coins as cheaply as possible, and then mark them up for the difference. Seasoned collectors who can cherry pick such coins also benefit as well. It's very possible that the only people in the country that know a VF 1860-s quarter is not worth $900 are the editors of the CDN. Or how about an 1842-0 SD 25c for $200 in good? About everyone who spends any time in the hobby knows these are worth multiples of those amounts.
Since Coin Values are quite a bit out in front of CDN, at least someone is getting out and checking on actual coins sold.

roadrunner

oldwestgold · November 18, 2007 6:22AM

<< Is it true that some submitters to TPG companies (not singling any company out)
tend to get borderline coins holdered when the average collector who sends a dozen coins a year
in tends to get those borderline coins bagged?

By borderline, I am talking questionable color or altered surfaces, or coins with rim bumps/scratches.

I wouldn't have thought this was really the case but a recent consignment to a major auction house changed my mind. I submitted some raw problem coins that I could not get holdered.
These were mistake purchases from over the years. I decided to dump the whole group and get at least something back on my money. Imagine my surprise when the auction house recommends resubmitting them all because they think they will grade out. And wouldn't ya know everyone of them got a grade at about the level I was in at. Even if some appeared to be net graded they got a grade. Even a horrible example of a poorly AT'd commem that I should have been tarred and feathered for buying about 10 yrs ago ended up slabbed as a 65. Go figure!

This whole event really changed my thinking about who gets what graded as what....and to not be so quick to give up on schlock. Note that I had submitted some of these coins 3 or 4 times to get a stinking grade on them. The auction house got grades on all of them on the FIRST try for all of them. That's pretty odd huh? Bottom line.....they WERE getting grades I was not getting nor other submitters weren't getting who tried some of these for me as well.

roadrunner >>

I've always suspected this but could never prove it. This helps, at least in my mind to lay this question to rest. Thanks. So much corrupt BS in the coin business. A lot collectors don't have the slightly clue about.

bidask · November 18, 2007 6:23AM

<< Why do some BM dealers keep the same material in inventory for months or even years, and won't accept a fair market value(slightly lower) to move the merchandise? This seems like a self defeating business practice to me. I've offered good money on items, been turned down, go back 4 months later, offer on the same item, been turned down again and so on and so forth. Makes no sense. >>

Because BM dealers make such rips from the selling public that they do not need to turn their inventory as say a dealer who doesn't buy from the public.

gecko109 · November 18, 2007 6:27AM

When at smallish shows (30 or less tables) why do obvious vest pocket dealers who bought a table for $25 and have maybe 40 coins out on display act like they are full time dealers with massive overhead? One older guy with a beard an in the situation described above, had a common date PCGS 3 cent nickel in a 64 I think. His marked price was $350. I asked him if he could get closer to sheet of around $205, like maybe $225? His response was a very belligerant "greysheet is a wholesale guide, not a retail guide". "It is for dealer to dealer transactions". I said thanks and walked away. Felt like asking him for his business liscense though if he was truly a dealer. Im just ranting here.

bidask · November 18, 2007 6:34AM

What exactly is the state of the US coin market these days?

roadrunner · November 18, 2007 6:37AM

Because BM dealers make such rips from the selling public that they do not need to turn their inventory as say a dealer who doesn't but from the public.

That's not always the case. I recall a friend of mine selling a fresh MS65 PCGS seated dime to a local B&M shop in 2003/2004. I see this coin a few times per year at local shows and am surprised at how long that coin has "survived" in inventory. The price went unchanged for a few years ($1400 I think) but now is down to $1000. And since market is around $750, that's still not going anywhere fast. And to make it worse the coin has changed in the holder. What was once a fresh all-white coin is now sporting various blotches from dip-residue. B&M dealers don't always get rips.....just usually.

roadrunner

DennisH · November 18, 2007 6:44AM

Dishonesty. Fraud. Deceit.

roadrunner · November 18, 2007 6:48AM

Why are Blake Territorial gold bars more commonly found in garages than any place else? Could my garage give up a Blake bar if I looked really, really hard?

Dennis, I think the 2 D's you listed above are what people mean by doing one's DD before buying anything.

Nearly every dealer in the business seems to have worked for Heritage at one time or another. Why not Mr. Eureka?

roadrunner

Fairlaneman · November 18, 2007 7:26AM

<< Why do some BM dealers keep the same material in inventory for months or even years, and won't accept a fair market value(slightly lower) to move the merchandise? This seems like a self defeating business practice to me. I've offered good money on items, been turned down, go back 4 months later, offer on the same item, been turned down again and so on and so forth. Makes no sense. >>

They will not admit that a buying mistake was made or they do not waver from their first grade that was applied. Probably the former.

My question was right in line with the above post. Why do dealers price their raw junk the same as a TPG certified coin? You can look into dealer cases and see a coin with their grade of MS whatever on it and then look elsewhere in thier store and see the same coin in a TPG holder with the same grade on it but clearly 5 points better. Do the dealers think that a collector only looks at raw and not TPG graded coins or vice versa.

This has baffled me for years.

Ken

RayNY2E · November 18, 2007 7:30AM

My question has to do With The 2006-W 20th Anniversary ASE Set's Graded By PCGS,(Let's use 69,69,69) For Example. The PCGS Price Guide, even today Shows The 20th Anniversary ASE Rev. Proof at $335.00 all by itself and That's not the First Strike. Then of Course you have The Matching MS69 and The PR69DCAM to complete the set. I can't understand why You can Get the Entire 3 coin Set now on E-Bay for just about the Price of The Rev. Proof? Furthermore,i still see the Raw, Rev. Proof's in Coin World for $369.00 each, Limit 3 per customer. What's up with That? Why the Big Difference in PCGS Price Guide and Prices Realized? Along the Same Lines,i often Wonder Why the "Coin Values" magazine prices Vary soo much from PCGS? It just seems to offer no real guidance or reflection of the True Market. I'd appreciate Any Opinions About The PCGS 20th Anniversary Sets as far as Possibly Future Values or Lack Thereof as i,like many others, Am still holding First Strike Sets and Non-First Strike Sets,All PCGS. I am aware of Spotting Issues on the ASE's but it should'nt be an Issue if PCGS takes care of This Problem should it arise. In My Opinion the 2006 Spotting issue is Nothing compared to some of the 1993 and 1994's I've seen over the years.

NHSBaseball · November 18, 2007 7:31AM

All right- here's one some of you metal detector guys can answer. I have occasionally seen a coin described as looking as if "it had been in the ground awhile." How can you tell? Does that mean the surface of the coin is porous? If so, why would being "in the ground" cause this to happen to silver or gold coins? (OK, I know that's 3 questions- I'll stop now).

Mikensay · November 18, 2007 7:48AM

Here's one. Who are the people out there on E-bay that pay so much more for a coin than even retail prices? Maybe a better question, how would I market to them?

RTS · November 18, 2007 8:01AM

I truly do not understand...

1. the preoccupation with grades and grading

2. how people enjoy their coins when they are encased in plastic, though I do understand that people do enjoy their slabbed coins

3. when people question the utility of an expensive numismatic book saying books are meant to be handled and read when I tend to guess
they do not spend their coins though coins were meant to be spent - I think it an asinine attitude.

StampAlarm · November 18, 2007 8:06AM

<< Why do people treat SEGS like 3rd world slabs when they without question will tell you that Larry Briggs is one of the best in the biz for authentication and grading?

Funny, I've never heard anyone bash SEGS and then praise Larry's grading. >>

Maybe not the same exact people,

but this may be what
is meant.

Jerry

shylock · November 18, 2007 8:10AM

What does it take to become a successful coin dealer in this age of ultra communication,
where many of your clients can find out how much you paid for the coin?

coinkat · November 18, 2007 8:14AM

I don't understand the why there is such a "heard mentality"

Arizonadesertrat · November 18, 2007 8:22AM

<< What does it take to become a successful coin dealer in this age of ultra communication,
where many of your clients can find out how much you paid for the coin? >>

Integrity and a willingness to buy back coins (that you previously sold) for an up-front price. Example: Rick Snow---his buy-back prices for PhotoSealed coins are 75% min of his sell prices (i.e., retail) and he will take back coins for 100% min credit towards the purchase of another example of the coin, only graded higher. He has no trouble securing nice coins and selling them to customers---he has created an effective (for him) two-way market for Flying Eagle and Indian Head cents. Dealers who don't do this will suffer when the market begins to cool off.

Meltdown · November 18, 2007 8:26AM

How do rare key date coins that are no longer in crirculation continue to appreciate when they are mostly all owned by collectors, protected and kept in their same condition, not worn or spent or lost. The mintage is known and will forever stay the same... no more or less than there were ten fifteen years ago, yet they continue to appreciate in value.

MrEureka · November 18, 2007 8:30AM

I truly do not understand...

1. the preoccupation with grades and grading

RTS - Do you understand the preoccupation with quality.

oldwestgold · November 18, 2007 8:32AM

<< How do rare key date coins that are no longer in crirculation continue to appreciate when they are mostly all owned by collectors, protected and kept in their same condition, not worn or spent or lost. The mintage is known and will forever stay the same... no more or less than there were ten fifteen years ago, yet they continue to appreciate in value. >>

I think you know the answer to this. Supply and demand. 10 people want to own the coin, only one or two on the market at a particular point in time. Price goes up.

JustPlainAl · November 18, 2007 8:32AM

While the subject of grading is being discussed here-

I'd like to see more examples of submission sheets for PCGS grading. It's kinda hard for a newer collector like me to try (heh... I say TRY) to make out the submission sheet properly. I have a hard time finding the correct info for some of the lines on the PCGS form. Anyone have a more complete form posted somewhere on this forum, or on your own website, maybe?

What I'm asking for is "PCGS Submissions for Dummies", so any help is appreciated. I know I'm not the only one that needs help, too!!

shylock · November 18, 2007 8:34AM

Arizonadesertrat - let me ask you something. Have you ever actually tried to resell to Rick?

The PhotoSeal buyers warranty is a good one, in theory.

Meltdown · November 18, 2007 8:36AM

<< 

<< How do rare key date coins that are no longer in crirculation continue to appreciate when they are mostly all owned by collectors, protected and kept in their same condition, not worn or spent or lost. The mintage is known and will forever stay the same... no more or less than there were ten fifteen years ago, yet they continue to appreciate in value. >>

I think you know the answer to this. Supply and demand. 10 people want to own the coin, only one or two on the market at a particular point in time. Price goes up. >>

It's more than that though... I guess I do not have a long term perspective as I've only been at this a few years, but I've not heard of prices ever going down on key date coins. I'm sure there are hoarders out there and occasionaly supply goes up a little, but does the price really go down to accomidate? Maybe they're snatched up so quick that most average collectors never knew there was a surplus.

1794half1839 · November 18, 2007 8:38AM

Increased rents, and less demand for it. Every weekend there is a coin show somewhere where people can meet with dealers who deal in everything from the modern crap to classic rarities to ancient coins. The best service that the brick and mortar shops provide is the obtaining material from the non-collecting public. The internet has made selling a lot easier and more affordible for many dealers to exist without having a shop.

My question: Why is the Coin Dealer Newsletter availible to people who are not dealers?

ScarsdaleCoin · November 18, 2007 8:46AM

My question: Why is the Coin Dealer Newsletter availible to people who are not dealers?

I honestly agree with you..... CDN should be only to real dealers not the buying public.... but in todays world information is easily obtained

however I do not see people going to supermarkets tu buy milk and showing up with the USDA Class and Producer Prices and Component Prices

nor do I see people going to the gas pumps and pulling out their copies of OPEC basket price

so why do people show up at coin shows, pull out grey sheets and expect that they should pay sheet for a coin?

orie · November 18, 2007 8:48AM

I'll bite, give me the reason back in the day to put reeded edges on coins?

1794half1839 · November 18, 2007 8:50AM

Key date mintage is only a part of it, let's look at the survial rate, such as a 1932 STG, where hundreds of thousands were minted, but far fewer exist. Key dates, like other coins got damaged, and taken from circ. OR melted, or some other fate. Mintages are only a small part of the story.

1794half1839 · November 18, 2007 8:53AM

WOW. Thank you for agreeing with me Jon. Especially with classic type coins, where can you buy choice original AU Bust anything for anywhere close to sheet. And the modern crap is overpriced. As a seller, I cannot get anywhere near 10% back of bid on some of this stuff, and collectors know that now. How are dealers supposed to make money if the public has access to the same information as dealers.

Is there anything about our hobby or business that you truly don't understand?

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