Lot of $$$ for a 1972 Empty Box & Wrappers...

grote15 · October 9, 2007 1:51PM

1972 Box & Wrappers

earlycalguy · October 9, 2007 1:57PM

Gary's probably busy buying up 72' off centered near mint commons.

packCollector · October 9, 2007 11:20PM

expect to see another 72 box from topps11 , his last one sold for 2500, people bid on this sh$t and then they think that is the real price which is what has killed the market overall for unopened product.

leathtech · October 9, 2007 11:46PM

I can't believe that sold for $344.00, is that normal for old wax boxes?

bifff257 · October 10, 2007 12:41AM

<< I can't believe that sold for $344.00 >>

That is amazing to me also.... I know people collect wrappers but come on...... This was bought for the sole purpose of resealing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

originalisbest · October 10, 2007 12:47AM

So learn to detect if a pack or box has been resealed - have Steve/BBCE check it out. I don't see the big whoop about wanting to collect the original old boxes the cards came in - certainly most were probably thrown away, so the few that are left fetch high prices thusly.

leathtech · October 10, 2007 1:07AM

OB - I guess to each their own... just can't see paying ($350.00) for a box + rappers. I really did not know there was an honest market for this stuff.

itzagoner · October 10, 2007 1:11AM

<< OB - I guess to each their own... just can't see paying ($350.00) for a box + rappers. I really did not know there was an honest market for this stuff. >>

bifff257 · October 10, 2007 1:18AM

<< So learn to detect if a pack or box has been resealed >>

OK, thanks for that tip.....

<< I really did not know there was an honest market for this stuff. >>

jamesryanbell · October 10, 2007 1:19AM

<< 

<< I can't believe that sold for $344.00 >>

That is amazing to me also.... I know people collect wrappers but come on...... This was bought for the sole purpose of resealing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>

Yep. I don't like the idea of wrappers and empty boxes being sold in ANY way.

originalisbest · October 10, 2007 1:51AM

Well, I guess you'd better go around personally to anyone buying original wax boxes and demand possession of all boxes from their purchase, take said empties, and then burn them out on their front lawn. Makes sense to me - that way those nasty ol' boxes won't be around to do you any potential harm.

Have a half of a clue, biffster. That's exactly what you need to do - learn what original sealed material looks like, or, buy from a reputable source. Such as Steve.

jamesryanbell · October 10, 2007 1:58AM

<< Well, I guess you'd better go around personally to anyone buying original wax boxes and demand possession of all boxes from their purchase, take said empties, and then burn them out on their front lawn. Makes sense to me - that way those nasty ol' boxes won't be around to do you any potential harm.

Have a half of a clue, biffster. That's exactly what you need to do - learn what original sealed material looks like, or, buy from a reputable source. Such as Steve. >>

grote15 · October 10, 2007 3:13AM

Have a half of a clue, biffster. That's exactly what you need to do - learn what original sealed material looks like, or, buy from a reputable source. Such as Steve.

The problem here though, as packcollector pointed out, is that when packs are resealed, it hurts everyone, including those who know what to look for and those who buy from a guy like Steve Hart, because when it comes time to sell legitimate unopened product, the price is artificially suppressed because of the resealed auctions. Those who know who the resealers are stay away from them, that is why a box of 72 Topps ends up at $2.5K instead of $4.5.

leathtech · October 10, 2007 4:23AM

If I was going to drop $2.5k on a box I would think I'd do my homework 1st....

originalisbest · October 10, 2007 4:52AM

Point taken, so what's the answer? Destroy all old boxes? Seems like a back-assward way of dealing with the problem to me.

grote15 · October 10, 2007 5:05AM

Point taken, so what's the answer? Destroy all old boxes? Seems like a back-assward way of dealing with the problem to me.

Re-read my post. I never suggested that. The point here, though, is with regards to how resealers have irreparably damaged the value of legitimate product. Unfortunately, there is no answer, as resealers continue to proliferate as long as there is money to be made. As a collector, though, it's an unfortunate aspect to the hobby that has hurt the honest sellers, too, like it or not.

bifff257 · October 10, 2007 5:14AM

<< Have a half of a clue, biffster. That's exactly what you need to do - learn what original sealed material looks like, or, buy from a reputable source. Such as Steve >>

So you don't have a problem with sellers pushing this resealed crap on ebay.......

<< As a collector, though, it's an unfortunate aspect to the hobby that has hurt the honest sellers, too, like it or not. >>

It is about the intregrity of this hobby that is compromised every time one of these boxes are sold

gemint · October 10, 2007 8:14AM

There's a market for this stuff but the honest market is probably $10-$15 for the box and another $5 per wrapper, tops (no pun intended). So at most it's worth $150. For someone to pay $300+ for it, you know what its intent is. As for the wisecracks about learning how to spot resealed packs, even GAI isn't very good at it. AS others have pointed out, the more bogus stuff that hits the market, the more it will drive collectors away. Not everyone wants to become an authentication expert. And when you can't trust the slabbed stuff, what do you buy?

thedutymon · October 10, 2007 8:39AM

Good day,
Why not get a Red Stamp that says "Opened" and when you sell the boxes and wrappers stamp the inside lightly. If they had never been opened obviusly this stamp would not be on the inside. This should have no detriment on the value. Supposidly thay are being bought for the Visual of the Outside of the Box or Wrapper. This would stop the Re-Sealers form re-using the stuff !!!!
Neil

thehallmark · October 10, 2007 9:10AM

If you are upset or offended by resealers, I'd ask you what lengths you are willing to go to stop it from happening. If you are only willing to post a complaint on a PSA board, I don't feel like you're really very committed to the cause. If you dedicate a gigantic amount of time and resources towards a campaign to somehow educate people and make them skeptical of older, sealed wax...then I would say you have shown that you really do care.

Most of us will just figure out how to tell what's real and what's not and move on. And that's okay, too.

grote15 · October 10, 2007 9:37AM

If you are upset or offended by resealers, I'd ask you what lengths you are willing to go to stop it from happening. If you are only willing to post a complaint on a PSA board, I don't feel like you're really very committed to the cause.

Most resealers run private auctions where the identity of the bidders is not available, so there's not much that can be done in that sense, and there are also rules with regard to auction inteference. Not sure if such a "cause" to stop resealers could even exist, anyway, unfortunately. Like I said earlier, if there's money to be made, dishonest sellers will find a way to rip off unsuspecting buyers.

leftofdial · October 10, 2007 10:39AM

I think that box in that condition sould sell for $20-$35 depending on the condition. It looked nice enough from the crappy pic. And yes, it will be interesting to see if we see that exact same box re-emerge as a '72 box with 36 sealed packs down the road. I have some 70's and 80's football boxes that I would love to upgrade my boxes and even a mid 70's FB box goes for $30 or less alot of the time. Someone legit would not bid that much to just upgrade their 72 BB box.

But as far as not reselling boxes, and even vintage wrappers, I strongly disagree with them being prohibited from sales, because I have a fair number of vintage full and legit boxes (and one from nedsk) and I don't really enjoy them becuase I have to take such precautions with them, therefore I rarely look at them. For under 50 bucks, and for most, under 20 bucks, i could buy that same exact empty box and leave it on top of my bookcase or anywhere and enjoy seeing it every day. And vintage wrappers sell for a fraction of the pack price.

I could live with an "opened" stamp on insides of wax wrappers, but 1) It could not logistically happen (way too many sources, Few will go buy said stamp) and 2) unless it was foolproof, there would be shady people like nedsk and Uncle Fester's twin with more time and money figuring out how to remove all traces of the stamp anyway. Those two are borderline retards and they got away with lots. Think what an intelligent group of nere-do-wells could achieve.

Beezer12 · October 10, 2007 12:34PM

That account is long suspected as being a buying front for a noted resealer. I blocked him from bidding and any of my similar items because of the concerns expressed in this thread. If you don't keep up with the wax collecting discussion clubs to know who the suspects are I'd suggest you stick to sources you know and trust. Never bid on private auctions or enter into private deals with someone you don't know if you are worried about getting burned. Collecting old wax isn't for the faint hearted for sure.
And yes , the box and wrapper market is small but seems pretty competitive because the items are so scarce. Cards are a dime a dozen compared to the display boxes for example. Old hockey boxes and wrappers command 10x or more what baseball does because of supply/demand.

vintagetoppsguy · October 10, 2007 12:42PM

<< That account is long suspected as being a buying front for a noted resealer. >>

I didn't know that, but I would have guessed it by his feedback. He buys a lot of wax wrappers (especially in lots) and empty wax boxes. He does not do any selling from that account. Does he have another id that he uses to sell?

Blackborder · October 10, 2007 1:02PM

Here's the rest of the '72 wrappers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300141943605

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120148894746

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120146011916

packCollector · October 10, 2007 1:03PM

<< That account is long suspected as being a buying front for a noted resealer. >>

Is it topps11 ? I just guessed because I saw the account is from SC and topps11 is in NC or SC

Blackborder · October 10, 2007 1:05PM

There's a '73 kit ready to go.

Box

Wrappers

Cards

Blackborder · October 10, 2007 1:19PM

<< 

<< That account is long suspected as being a buying front for a noted resealer. >>

Is it topps11 ? I just guessed because I saw the account is from SC and topps11 is in NC or SC >>

Interesting that topps11 sold a '72 AND a '73 box.

'72 Box

'73 Box

Blackborder · October 10, 2007 1:23PM

Top pic is the box that sellonesellall bought. Bottom pic is the box topps11 sold. Lighting is different, but I think they're the same box.

thehallmark · October 10, 2007 1:31PM

<< If you are upset or offended by resealers, I'd ask you what lengths you are willing to go to stop it from happening. If you are only willing to post a complaint on a PSA board, I don't feel like you're really very committed to the cause.

Most resealers run private auctions where the identity of the bidders is not available, so there's not much that can be done in that sense, and there are also rules with regard to auction inteference. Not sure if such a "cause" to stop resealers could even exist, anyway, unfortunately. Like I said earlier, if there's money to be made, dishonest sellers will find a way to rip off unsuspecting buyers. >>

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to harbor criminals. Resealers should be caught and punished. My only point was that whining won't stop them.

Couldn't we somehow organize and send a petition to Ebay, explaining why the box/wrapper industry exists? I hear stories all the time about Ebay shutting down auctions for shady, malevolent merchandise. Maybe they'd listen?

Blackborder · October 10, 2007 1:39PM

Top pic is a '70 box that sellonesellall bought. Bottom pic is the one topps11 sold. Same box in my opinion.

'70 wrappers

grote15 · October 10, 2007 1:40PM

Couldn't we somehow organize and send a petition to Ebay, explaining why the box/wrapper industry exists? I hear stories all the time about Ebay shutting down auctions for shady, malevolent merchandise. Maybe they'd listen?

A petition? You must be kidding. Truth is ebay doesn't care. And nobody here is "whining" as you put it. Simply having a discussion on the subject. I, for one, am interested in what others have to say, as it's the sharing of lnowledge that helps all collectors and it's also one of the useful aspects of a discussion board like this one.

For the record, too, I am not in favor of banning the sale of wrappers and empty wax boxes on ebay, either. There are many honest collectors of these items, and it's not fair to punish them for the dishonest dealings of a few. As itzagoner says, the unopened pack part of the ho0bby has become like the Wild West, LOL.

grote15 · October 10, 2007 1:41PM

Top pic is a '70 box that sellonesellall bought. Bottom pic is the one topps11 sold. Same box in my opinion.

Looks identical to me, too.

itzagoner · October 10, 2007 1:42PM

Blackborder = Barnaby Jones, nice work

the problem with eBay attempting to shut down an auction without substantiated proof of tampering becomes a legal issue they don't want to touch.....i applaud the efforts of those who at least go out of their way to warn innocent collectors about these predators.....the unopened product business in general has become its own version of the unpoliced Wild Wild West, shame......

Blackborder · October 10, 2007 1:50PM

sellonesellall appears to be a "customer" of topps11. Here's the feedback left.

GREAT CELLO AA++++++++++ Seller: topps11 ( 379) May-01-05 18:03
-- (#5187219695) --
GREAT CELLO AAA++++++++++ Seller: topps11 ( 379) May-01-05 18:03
-- (#5187219962) --
GREAT RACK AA++++++++++++++ Seller: topps11 ( 379) May-01-05 18:03
-- (#5187219253) --
GREAT OLD RACK AAA+++++ Seller: topps11 ( 379) Apr-26-05 04:53
-- (#5187218398) --
GREAT OLD RACK AAA+++++ Seller: topps11 ( 379) Apr-26-05 04:53
-- (#5187218366) --

THANKS GREAT BOX UNSEACHED Seller: topps11 ( 379) Nov-21-04 18:46
-- (#5131985178) --

thehallmark · October 10, 2007 1:50PM

<< Couldn't we somehow organize and send a petition to Ebay, explaining why the box/wrapper industry exists? I hear stories all the time about Ebay shutting down auctions for shady, malevolent merchandise. Maybe they'd listen?

A petition? You must be kidding. Truth is ebay doesn't care. And nobody here is "whining" as you put it. Simply having a discussion on the subject. I, for one, am interested in what others have to say, as it's the sharing of lnowledge that helps all collectors and it's also one of the useful aspects of a discussion board like this one. >>

Yeah...this is all SUPER useful. And the boxes keep selling.

My fault. I thought the discussion was veering towards finding a way to stop resealers who were "hurting the hobby". Apparently not.

itzagoner · October 10, 2007 2:02PM

hallmark: if you knew that there was a rapist in your neighborhood, and you knew where to find this rapist and you could tell the cops where to find this rapist and you were certain that this rapist would be stopped for good by the hand of the law, would you then continue with this process to go out there and stop ALL of the other rapists? just wondering

i think a lot of us are on your side, keep fighting.

thehallmark · October 10, 2007 2:11PM

Forget it. I regret saying anything. Honestly, I don't even really care if strangers make careless decisions and buy resealed boxes. Fools will find away to piss their money away one way or another anyway.

If I really get the itch to be do-gooder, I'll start another thread about brainstorming creative ways of stopping these criminals. A nap and a sandwich are much higher priorities to me at the moment.

Truly sorry for interfering.

cheers

Beezer12 · October 10, 2007 3:31PM

i hear they are the same individual/family

Ripken · October 10, 2007 6:03PM

eBay does have a "guides" section where you can create a user guide which remains on the site permanently. They are read by a fairly large # of people. The knowledge being spread here is not common among casual or newbie type collectors. Taking an hour to write a guide with some of the tell-tale signs of bad wax (and info on the real stuff) and placing it on eBay could go a long way toward stopping this type of activity and saving those kinds of people from innocently throwing their $ away.

Morgoth · October 10, 2007 11:11PM

Blackborder you are absolutely correct in that they are the same boxes. Ebay has made it tough to shut these guys down because even if you get a shill bidding claim, they will get an alt and do it again. I doubt Ebay would look at those picts and do something as that would require them maybe losing money.

bifff257 · October 10, 2007 11:49PM

<< Honestly, I don't even really care if strangers make careless decisions and buy resealed boxes. Fools will find away to piss their money away one way or another anyway. >>

I think you are missing the point.

This BB along with other boards do a great job of exposing these frauds and educating everyone in the hobby about un-ethical sellers. Almost on a daily basis there is a thread about some Fake/couterfiet cards being sold, resealed wax auctions, scam auctions on ebay that the people on this board uncover and alert the community.

We can only do so much, and yes it hurts the hobby everytime an individual gets scamed on ebay. So making a statement like who cares if someboby buys some resealed wax is pretty short sided in my opinion..

Morgoth · October 11, 2007 12:17AM

He seems to be talking both sides of the issue, first he ridicules this board for not doing enough about the issue and just talking about it by posting here and then he says he doesn't care if people get scammed and if you do get scammed your a fool in his eyes. Looks like someone just trying to pick a fight.

originalisbest · October 11, 2007 1:35AM

If $10-15 is all that empty box is worth, sell me a nice one at that price, I'd love to have it to go with my '72 topps set.

baseballfanatic · October 11, 2007 1:42AM

<< If $10-15 is all that empty box is worth, sell me a nice one at that price, I'd love to have it to go with my '72 topps set.

>>

Ditto
I'll take all the clean 72 boxes you have at 10 bucks apiece

gemint · October 11, 2007 2:34AM

<< 

<< If $10-15 is all that empty box is worth, sell me a nice one at that price, I'd love to have it to go with my '72 topps set.

>>

Ditto
I'll take all the clean 72 boxes you have at 10 bucks apiece

>>

Sorry mine isn't for sale. However, they aren't that scarce. Mastro has several full boxes for sale in every major auction they run. There are many more that are empty and a decent percentage of those full boxes will be busted, adding yet another empty box to the supply.

thedutymon · October 11, 2007 3:05AM

Good Day,
I want to thank all of you here, who are contributing to this thread and others like it. You are accomplishing one mission and that is education, me in particular. I'm an old Non Sport guy who just got into Sport stuff in the last year and before that would never have even known that there was Re-Sealing, Ect. I am basically an honest person and would have never even concieved of thsi type of stuff and so would ahve been the perfect Mark. In my genre Non Sports there isn't enough unopened Vintage to make that ever a concern. And any that is out there is as valuable as a whole as much as it's parts, as well as there is not really common and key cards. All cards from most vintage are of equal value. So anyway, these threads have helped me learn about this whole re-sealing scam, and due to this I've taken part in a couple of the group rips from Steve, and will only do stuff from him or other reputable Dealers you guys talk about in these threads. Thanks Again
Neil

originalisbest · October 11, 2007 4:17AM

S'funny, I don't see all these boxes available at $10-$15 per, tho. Next time one pops up for sale at around that price, please do post a link on the BST section - I'd appreciate it.

grote15 · October 11, 2007 11:07AM

S'funny, I don't see all these boxes available at $10-$15 per, tho. Next time one pops up for sale at around that price, please do post a link on the BST section - I'd appreciate it.

I'd estimate the actual value of an empty 72 wax box in NM-MT condition at around $60. Even 1975 boxes go for around $15-$20 these days, though the prices on ebay are probably inflated due to resealers looking for material to fabricate full boxes. After all, what's a couple of hundred dollars if you plan on filling it with resealed junk and selling it for $2K-$3K.

gemint · October 11, 2007 11:57AM

<< S'funny, I don't see all these boxes available at $10-$15 per, tho. Next time one pops up for sale at around that price, please do post a link on the BST section - I'd appreciate it.

I'd estimate the actual value of an empty 72 wax box in NM-MT condition at around $60. Even 1975 boxes go for around $15-$20 these days, though the prices on ebay are probably inflated due to resealers looking for material to fabricate full boxes. After all, what's a couple of hundred dollars if you plan on filling it with resealed junk and selling it for $2K-$3K. >>

That's the key. You can't gage the value of empty boxes by looking at eBay. Just like you can't predict the true value of a NM-MT trimmed card because of the scammers who seek this type of material and will pay over market price to obtain it.

thehallmark · October 11, 2007 1:46PM

<< He seems to be talking both sides of the issue, first he ridicules this board for not doing enough about the issue and just talking about it by posting here and then he says he doesn't care if people get scammed and if you do get scammed your a fool in his eyes. Looks like someone just trying to pick a fight. >>

I've read quite a few threads in the last six months that have been filled with comments like this: "Everybody, check out this auction <insert link of auction with empty wax box and/or wrappers>. That jerk <insert name of disreputable wax box seller/resealer> is back again, ripping people off. Ebay should really do something to stop them, but they won't. I hope the winning bidder doesn't get too badly screwed."

And then sometimes people opine about how it hurts the hobby. But that's it. People seem to be offended enough about resealers to post about the problem, but then what? Does their passion end with the post? I'd like to think that there are people out there in the hobby who care enough to do more than post. I'd love to hear some better ideas about how to stop resealing from happening on a larger scale. I hoped that the complaining could evolve into some sort of action that would be more helpful than repetitive posts on the PSA board. I hoped we could all contribute. And I think that maybe there are some good ideas out there. A couple posts back, Ripken was really on to something, I think.

But I ruffled the feathers of a good poster earlier and I went away so you all could talk about how the two boxes were the same.

I never ridiculed "the board". That is a lie. I questioned the depth of the concern of the posters who aren't doing anything more than wagging their finger at resealers from their keyboards. That strategy seems fruitless to me.

And it's true that I often don't care about people getting scammed. If protecting the uneducated and foolish among us was something I felt compelled to make a top priority, I'd spend every second of every day for the rest of my life stressed out about those people and the mistakes that they make. not interested. So I do what I can for people, when I can. For instance, if there was a very productive way to stop resealers, I might be the first in line to help or I might just take a nap. If all we were doing was seeing who could post the best one-liner about how much they hate re-sealers, I'd rather take the nap.

And yeah, fools get scammed. What's so horrible about saying that out loud? I've been a fool. Lots of us have been fools. I learned from mistakes. I don't have any ill will against fools, but they are still fools. It's just a word. So what? Who cares? There is a learning curve and that's fine.

As far as I know, it is okay to think that the world is filled with fools and also want to help them from time to time. I'm pretty sure that is allowed.

Lot of $$$ for a 1972 Empty Box &amp; Wrappers...

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Lot of $$$ for a 1972 Empty Box & Wrappers...