<<<People will always buy resealed packs and boxes.
People will always pay top dollar for 52 Mantles when the auction states "I am selling this card as a reprint"
People will always pay top dollar for autographs that are as phoney as 3.00 bills.
Sad to say, they dont want to be educated.
Believe me, I've tried... >>>>
Well said, baseballfanatic. For every member we have on these boards who strives to become more knowledgeable about this great hobby, there's 50 people who can't wait to get their hands on one of those GRA Gem Mint 10 beauties.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>Honestly, I don't even really care if strangers make careless decisions and buy resealed boxes. Fools will find away to piss their money away one way or another anyway. >>
I think you are missing the point.
This BB along with other boards do a great job of exposing these frauds and educating everyone in the hobby about un-ethical sellers. Almost on a daily basis there is a thread about some Fake/couterfiet cards being sold, resealed wax auctions, scam auctions on ebay that the people on this board uncover and alert the community.
We can only do so much, and yes it hurts the hobby everytime an individual gets scamed on ebay. So making a statement like who cares if someboby buys some resealed wax is pretty short sided in my opinion.. >>
You think it is "short-sided", huh?
Let me try to put it another way, then.
All of us got here, to this board, to this thread, one way or another. Most, if not all, of us have learned how to spot reseal jobs over time. Some of us had to get screwed to accelerate our education in this regard. But that education has been priceless, has it not? Those mistakes lead us to BBCX and the other reputable sellers. We all learned how to determine how much of a premium we put on the integrity of a seller. And all of the people out there being foolish and buying resealed boxes are going through the same process we went through. And that's FINE!!! In the long run, a mistake now may save them A LOT of money later.
I never said that alerting the board members/lurkers to shady Ebay sellers was a bad thing. It's a GREAT THING!!! obviously!!! But it's also obvious that it isn't enough to stop the resealing industry. You can't possibly disagree with that.
So I'm curious if people here are willing to go further. Could we make a case to Ebay to do more to help the foolish buyers? Could you make a case to Ebay that empty boxes and wrappers are being used to defraud people far more than they are being bought as legitimate collectibles? Could we all design some sort of flyer that explains to people how to spot resealers...and maybe send them out with all of the thousands and thousands of cards that we sell? Could you somehow petition Ebay to add a disclaimer to box/card sales that actually says in plain terms - "When buying a major vintage card or wax box, you should ALWAYS get a second opinion about its legitmacy to protect yourself from fraud."
What I'm saying is, if this shady resealing industry is really "hurting the hobby" so much, why isn't more being done to stop it? Is it because people are lazy or is it because it's really not that big a deal to the people who post about it? If that position is short-sighted, then I'm really very VERY short-sighted. And obviously I'm missing the point.
No question that the resealing of packs will always be an ongoing problem on ebay, as even if ebay cared enough to crack down on these guys, they'd just reinvent themselves with new user IDs as mogroth pointed out. It's also incredibly naive to believe that the resealers can be stopped "on a larger scale", when you have the anonymity of ebay and its continuous stream of unsuspecting buyers, most of whom cannot be warned anyway because the auctions are private and ebay prohibits auction interference. But I think it's highly presumptuous to claim that nothing of value comes out of such a discussion, especially in this forum, as the purpose of these boards is to share information with fellow collectors, and I for one have learned quite a bit here by reading the posts and experiences of others. Your sarcasm, hallmark, can very easily be taken for ridicule, so I'm not sure why you'd so surprised if someone interprets it as such. Just don't bother posting if you think the conversation is fruitless, or better yet, go make that sandwich and take a nap.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Could you make a case to Ebay that empty boxes and wrappers are being used to defraud people far more than they are being bought as legitimate collectibles?
The major problem with that suggestion is that it unfairly penalizes the honest collectors of wrappers and boxes, amny of whom are members of this board.
As for a flyer, that would be a great idea in principle, but could you imagine the litigation it would open the distributors to of said flyer. The unopened field is such a gray area that even GAI doesn't always get it right, as some of these resealers are very skilled and the fakes are extremely tough to spot. Bottom line, IMO, is that as long as there is money to be made (and lots of it), by resealing packs, that you will always have unscrupulous dealers looking to make a quick buck. It's no different than a card doctor, but the nature of unopened product makes it an even more treacherous area to navigate.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
By flyer or disclaimer, I'm not talking about naming names. I'm talking about sellers and fellow collectors encouraging buyers to be skeptical and get second opinions. Shorten the learning curve. Surely there can be no litigation against urging people to protect themselves. ESPECIALLY if you simultaneously ENCOURAGE those same buyers to keep buying. You show/tell people how to spot a fake for themselves. It's an easy sell.
To be honest, I can't believe that the big distributers of older wax don't have this concept printed ALL OVER their webpages/auctions/receipts/etc. I would think that incorporating the idea that their Company X is the most trustworthy seller of vintage wax according to experts and blahblahblah..... I'd think that would be good for business. I dunno. Maybe not. Maybe a lot of new buyers don't have a clue that resealing even exists. Maybe the reputable sellers like it that way?
My point, although poorly made, was that some people think posting about the problem is all that can be done. I don't believe that to be true. I don't think enough avenues have been explored yet to give up so easily. Maybe we can agree to disagree that it is or it isn't hopeless to brainstorm ideas about how to stop the resealing/trimming industries.
I just can't relate to the mindset where people talk about how much it is "hurting the hobby" and then say out of the other side of their mouth that "it is hopeless". That seems so needlessly defeatist to me. If it's hurting the hobby so much, shouldn't that inspire much more motivation for creative solutions?
What is the goal when posting about resealers? If the goal is to stop resealers, these posts are failing miserably. I guess that's where my disconnect with this thread is. It was never about stopping resealers. It was never about stopping anything. It was only an alert. I did miss the point. I admit it. And it's 100% my fault. No sarcasm here.
I truly apologize for the hijack.
So to get back on the subject.....
Yes. That 1972 box/wrapper auction sure looks crappy. Someone is going to get screwed.
I just can't relate to the mindset where people talk about how much it is "hurting the hobby" and then say out of the other side of their mouth that "it is hopeless". That seems so needlessly defeatist to me. If it's hurting the hobby so much, shouldn't that inspire much more motivation for creative solutions?
The point I was trying to make, and maybe I wasn't making it clearly enough, is that discussions like these DO help the problem because the information that is shared on these boards is very useful among collectors when it comes to topics like these.
It is noble to suggest that honest collectors unite to combat these evil resealers, but the truth is, you have as much chance of doing that as stopping crime in general. It is naive to think otherwise. As I mentioned earlier, the virtual anonymity of ebay and its neverending source of uninformed buyers and the private auction format virtually ensure that. Even Public Enemy #1 on these boards Gary is still selling unopened product on ebay, for example.
The reality of the problem is just that: an unfortunate aspect of the hobby, but these boards are a useful tool, albeit not a fully effective one, at bringing the subject to light.
And that's my 2 cents.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
nothing "hurts the hobby" more than perception.....the fact is, resealing and other shady practices have existed for years, however, the prominence of these issues become more urgent when larger sums of money exchange hands
the statements being made about people resisting a proper education are right on, "you can lead a horse to water" etc, etc......as i pointed out earlier in this thread, it is meaningful that there are people here who care enough to warn others about the dangers of this business, as shady as any other.....the ones who will generally succeed are those who want to be educated
sometimes you literally need to be screwed over at least once, so you can go on the defensive and learn from that mistake, learn not to make it again....Lord knows, it's happened to me too, and i'm certain plenty of others here could testify to that
as long as there are lots of hobbyists, this hobby will be fine
Aside from buyers ignorance, one of the things that these sellers count on, is the buyers own greed. People try and get something for nothing and get burned. I'd say this contributes as much or more than buyer ignorance.
Buyers are either ignorant because they're new to the hobby and will eventually wise up. Or they're perpetually ignorant. Or they're greedy.
The first catagory is the only group that even wants assistence, and they're a small fraction of people who buy this stuff in my opinion. Bottom line, you can't save people from themselves.
Also, to the point about doing something about this. Is pack resealing illegal? I'd say it probably is depending on how they advertised it. That being the case, a call to the local police would seem to be a good step in doing something about it.
I was new here when the whole Gary episode took place. I'm surprised that his local police didn't get about 20 phone calls or a small claims court suit.
Comments
People will always pay top dollar for 52 Mantles when the auction states "I am selling this card as a reprint"
People will always pay top dollar for autographs that are as phoney as 3.00 bills.
Sad to say, they dont want to be educated.
Believe me, I've tried...
People will always pay top dollar for 52 Mantles when the auction states "I am selling this card as a reprint"
People will always pay top dollar for autographs that are as phoney as 3.00 bills.
Sad to say, they dont want to be educated.
Believe me, I've tried... >>>>
Well said, baseballfanatic. For every member we have on these boards who strives to become more knowledgeable about this great hobby, there's 50 people who can't wait to get their hands on one of those GRA Gem Mint 10 beauties.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
<< <i>
<< <i>Honestly, I don't even really care if strangers make careless decisions and buy resealed boxes. Fools will find away to piss their money away one way or another anyway. >>
I think you are missing the point.
This BB along with other boards do a great job of exposing these frauds and educating everyone in the hobby about un-ethical sellers. Almost on a daily basis there is a thread about some Fake/couterfiet cards being sold, resealed wax auctions, scam auctions on ebay that the people on this board uncover and alert the community.
We can only do so much, and yes it hurts the hobby everytime an individual gets scamed on ebay. So making a statement like who cares if someboby buys some resealed wax is pretty short sided in my opinion.. >>
You think it is "short-sided", huh?
Let me try to put it another way, then.
All of us got here, to this board, to this thread, one way or another. Most, if not all, of us have learned how to spot reseal jobs over time. Some of us had to get screwed to accelerate our education in this regard. But that education has been priceless, has it not? Those mistakes lead us to BBCX and the other reputable sellers. We all learned how to determine how much of a premium we put on the integrity of a seller. And all of the people out there being foolish and buying resealed boxes are going through the same process we went through. And that's FINE!!! In the long run, a mistake now may save them A LOT of money later.
I never said that alerting the board members/lurkers to shady Ebay sellers was a bad thing. It's a GREAT THING!!! obviously!!! But it's also obvious that it isn't enough to stop the resealing industry. You can't possibly disagree with that.
So I'm curious if people here are willing to go further. Could we make a case to Ebay to do more to help the foolish buyers? Could you make a case to Ebay that empty boxes and wrappers are being used to defraud people far more than they are being bought as legitimate collectibles? Could we all design some sort of flyer that explains to people how to spot resealers...and maybe send them out with all of the thousands and thousands of cards that we sell? Could you somehow petition Ebay to add a disclaimer to box/card sales that actually says in plain terms - "When buying a major vintage card or wax box, you should ALWAYS get a second opinion about its legitmacy to protect yourself from fraud."
What I'm saying is, if this shady resealing industry is really "hurting the hobby" so much, why isn't more being done to stop it? Is it because people are lazy or is it because it's really not that big a deal to the people who post about it? If that position is short-sighted, then I'm really very VERY short-sighted.
And obviously I'm missing the point.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The major problem with that suggestion is that it unfairly penalizes the honest collectors of wrappers and boxes, amny of whom are members of this board.
As for a flyer, that would be a great idea in principle, but could you imagine the litigation it would open the distributors to of said flyer. The unopened field is such a gray area that even GAI doesn't always get it right, as some of these resealers are very skilled and the fakes are extremely tough to spot. Bottom line, IMO, is that as long as there is money to be made (and lots of it), by resealing packs, that you will always have unscrupulous dealers looking to make a quick buck. It's no different than a card doctor, but the nature of unopened product makes it an even more treacherous area to navigate.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
To be honest, I can't believe that the big distributers of older wax don't have this concept printed ALL OVER their webpages/auctions/receipts/etc. I would think that incorporating the idea that their Company X is the most trustworthy seller of vintage wax according to experts and blahblahblah.....
I'd think that would be good for business. I dunno. Maybe not. Maybe a lot of new buyers don't have a clue that resealing even exists. Maybe the reputable sellers like it that way?
My point, although poorly made, was that some people think posting about the problem is all that can be done. I don't believe that to be true. I don't think enough avenues have been explored yet to give up so easily. Maybe we can agree to disagree that it is or it isn't hopeless to brainstorm ideas about how to stop the resealing/trimming industries.
I just can't relate to the mindset where people talk about how much it is "hurting the hobby" and then say out of the other side of their mouth that "it is hopeless". That seems so needlessly defeatist to me. If it's hurting the hobby so much, shouldn't that inspire much more motivation for creative solutions?
What is the goal when posting about resealers? If the goal is to stop resealers, these posts are failing miserably. I guess that's where my disconnect with this thread is. It was never about stopping resealers. It was never about stopping anything. It was only an alert. I did miss the point. I admit it. And it's 100% my fault. No sarcasm here.
I truly apologize for the hijack.
So to get back on the subject.....
Yes. That 1972 box/wrapper auction sure looks crappy. Someone is going to get screwed.
The point I was trying to make, and maybe I wasn't making it clearly enough, is that discussions like these DO help the problem because the information that is shared on these boards is very useful among collectors when it comes to topics like these.
It is noble to suggest that honest collectors unite to combat these evil resealers, but the truth is, you have as much chance of doing that as stopping crime in general. It is naive to think otherwise. As I mentioned earlier, the virtual anonymity of ebay and its neverending source of uninformed buyers and the private auction format virtually ensure that. Even Public Enemy #1 on these boards Gary is still selling unopened product on ebay, for example.
The reality of the problem is just that: an unfortunate aspect of the hobby, but these boards are a useful tool, albeit not a fully effective one, at bringing the subject to light.
And that's my 2 cents.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
the statements being made about people resisting a proper education are right on, "you can lead a horse to water" etc, etc......as i pointed out earlier in this thread, it is meaningful that there are people here who care enough to warn others about the dangers of this business, as shady as any other.....the ones who will generally succeed are those who want to be educated
sometimes you literally need to be screwed over at least once, so you can go on the defensive and learn from that mistake, learn not to make it again....Lord knows, it's happened to me too, and i'm certain plenty of others here could testify to that
as long as there are lots of hobbyists, this hobby will be fine
Know Your Hobby.
Buyers are either ignorant because they're new to the hobby and will eventually wise up. Or they're perpetually ignorant. Or they're greedy.
The first catagory is the only group that even wants assistence, and they're a small fraction of people who buy this stuff in my opinion. Bottom line, you can't save people from themselves.
Also, to the point about doing something about this. Is pack resealing illegal? I'd say it probably is depending on how they advertised it. That being the case, a call to the local police would seem to be a good step in doing something about it.
I was new here when the whole Gary episode took place. I'm surprised that his local police didn't get about 20 phone calls or a small claims court suit.