Hypothetical Ethics Test
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UtahCoin
Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭✭✭
Over the years here, much has been discussed about AT & NT toning. Very little has been agreed upon with perhaps the exception that it seems more toned coins are in the market place now as opposed to 20+ years ago. Obviously some really poor coin doctors have been discussed here (like these 2 horribly bad AT'ers unique_n_toned & cwbyup1051).
The question I have is as follows. Just suppose that over the past few years someone played with all the different methods discussed here. Taco Bell napkins, heat, old albums, chemicals (both gas & liquid) have all been discussed to death. Just suppose further that you "hit" upon the "perfect" method. You think you've done a pretty good job at making a market acceptable AT coin. For kicks, you send in a couple to a major TPG service with a bunch of other coins and low and behold they slab. You realize you just took a $30 coin and made it a $300 coin.
What do you do? Do you tell the major TPG what you did and how you did it? Do you become the foremost coin doctor and make a high 6 figure income? And as long as you're throwing ethics out the window, this would be non-reported income. Do you take the secret to the grave with you?
What would you do?
PS Before I get a ton of PM's, this is HYPOTHETICAL! I have not discovered the secret to do this.
The question I have is as follows. Just suppose that over the past few years someone played with all the different methods discussed here. Taco Bell napkins, heat, old albums, chemicals (both gas & liquid) have all been discussed to death. Just suppose further that you "hit" upon the "perfect" method. You think you've done a pretty good job at making a market acceptable AT coin. For kicks, you send in a couple to a major TPG service with a bunch of other coins and low and behold they slab. You realize you just took a $30 coin and made it a $300 coin.
What do you do? Do you tell the major TPG what you did and how you did it? Do you become the foremost coin doctor and make a high 6 figure income? And as long as you're throwing ethics out the window, this would be non-reported income. Do you take the secret to the grave with you?
What would you do?
PS Before I get a ton of PM's, this is HYPOTHETICAL! I have not discovered the secret to do this.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
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Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
You forgot lizards.
<< <i> And as long as you're throwing ethics out the window, this would be non-reported income. >>
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
--Christian
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Other 1% would have to wait til they came out of coma and off life support.
Forget acid or other chemicals............money is the most corrosive substance known.
I may have some of these details wrong, maybe someone can find or recalls the post I'm referring to and can link it here...
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>If it could be done where 95% of coins would pass TPG services I'd say 99% of people would quit day job and become coin dealers.
Other 1% would have to wait til they came out of coma and off life support.
Forget acid or other chemicals............money is the most corrosive substance known. >>
Perhaps, but it wouldn't take long before the market (collectors) decided they should stay away from toned coins (or dipped coins or even coins altogether) and then all those people would be out of a job. The market as a whole would suffer, and there is no long-term benifit.
Look, I know people are concerned about this topic. My advice to those worried about accidently buying an AT toned coin is that they only purchase PCGS or NGC coins that they find attractive. Sure, one out maybe 200 toned coins sent to one of those services slip through the cracks, but both are very strict (believe it or not) when it comes to toned coins. I had a coin sent back to me "No Grade" that my dad purchased raw 20 years ago, sold to a collector who stored it in has basement for 20 years, and it toned a solid rich blue. Even though it didn't grade, it did receive active bidding in our auction.
Now there are people out there who will say, "I have seen tons of coins certified by NGC and PCGS that look AT." O.k., but consider the number of toned coins that have been certified, and did you find those coins attractive? The percentage has to be less than half a percent.
<< <i>I never considered putting a coin in an old album, newspaper, or a taco bell napkin to tone a method of 'artificially toning' a coin, because these methods allow the coin to tone naturally. Treating it with chemicals or a blow torch? That to me is unethical, and I wouldn't do it...
--Christian >>
You are exposing the coin to chemicals when you do all of the above. I don't understand the difference. Pouring a chemical on a coin is AT but wrapping one up in a chemical is NT? I know that I am in athe minority here But I say Who the hell cares how it happened. If you like it good, if not don't buy it. This wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if someone would come up with a set in stone list of What is and what isn't AT. Until then the debate will continue. I happen to think that all toning is artificial. In a vacume nothing would tone so even the NT coins are just proof of mishandling at some point in time. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder not where someone else tells you it is. When at a gentlemans club does it really matter if they are NTs or ATs just enjoy the show!!
I've figured it out, so I know many others have done so as well.
I guess my problem is ethics, I know I can get one slabbed. I've got a couple of stunning slabbed Peace dollars, but they will never be sold.
OTOH, I know of one individual who made out big time a few years ago doing this. His isn't trusted by anyone who knows him. I suspect ethics weren't ever his problem to start with.
I tend to believe strongly in Karma. The wheels of justice may grind slow, but they grind remarkably fine.
It's really not a a hypothetical question to me and I'd bet that a fair percentage of high dollar slabbed toners out there were "helped along".
I remember when I first heard the term "market acceptable" and I haven't been the same since. It's disturbing and I no longer collect nor admire toners as I once did. Yes, there are some absolutely beautiful toned coins that are without a doubt NT as the result of years of nature and chemistry, some are absolutely glorious. However, there will always be people who will seek the quick and easy route and in doing so, they take something away from all of us in the process.
I think this applies to all sorts of things in life, not just the OP's question.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>
<< <i>I never considered putting a coin in an old album, newspaper, or a taco bell napkin to tone a method of 'artificially toning' a coin, because these methods allow the coin to tone naturally. Treating it with chemicals or a blow torch? That to me is unethical, and I wouldn't do it...
--Christian >>
When at a gentlemans club does it really matter if they are NTs or ATs just enjoy the show!! >>
Nice comparison
<< <i>
<< <i>I never considered putting a coin in an old album, newspaper, or a taco bell napkin to tone a method of 'artificially toning' a coin, because these methods allow the coin to tone naturally. Treating it with chemicals or a blow torch? That to me is unethical, and I wouldn't do it...
--Christian >>
You are exposing the coin to chemicals when you do all of the above. I don't understand the difference. Pouring a chemical on a coin is AT but wrapping one up in a chemical is NT? I know that I am in athe minority here But I say Who the hell cares how it happened. If you like it good, if not don't buy it. This wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if someone would come up with a set in stone list of What is and what isn't AT. Until then the debate will continue. I happen to think that all toning is artificial. In a vacume nothing would tone so even the NT coins are just proof of mishandling at some point in time. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder not where someone else tells you it is. When at a gentlemans club does it really matter if they are NTs or ATs just enjoy the show!! >>
You are 100% correct about the chemicals. What I meant by 'naturally' is that this is how toning usually occurs on coins considered to be toned in a genuine way. Album toning can be quite spectacular (from cardboard), as can mint set toning (cardboard) and end-roll toning (paper). A coin from a 60-year old album, mint set, or roll has likely been exposed to the same chemicals over that time. If the mishanding of the coin and the chemicals in the paper or cardboard caused the coin to tone in an attractive way, there is demand for it from the hobby and the value of the coin is increased. I don't consider putting a coin in the exact same environment that causes acceptable NT examples, to do what it would normally do in that environment, artifically toning a coin.
Edited to add:
I also agree- buy what you like!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
BS. But I'm sure glad you said all that.
My degrees involve chemistry of every variety, and I've worked in several laboratory jobs actually putting that knowledge to use. I've read claims like yours on here for three years now, by people without scientific backgrounds, and no one has elucidated a method yet that can produce the kind of coins we are talking about. So I challenge you, back it up. You don't really think someone will do it as an excuse not to tell, you just can't back it up, right? With my background, I haven't a clue, and I've worked extensively with things like hydrogen sulfide gas and fuming sulfuric acid, and I haven't a clue how it could be done, much less done to produce a gorgeous toner like you're talking about that would get slabbed by a major.
Take the challenge, since you know. Tell us how it's done. Put up or shut up.
Edited to add, don't include sticking a coin in an album brand known for toning. Or heating.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Say you have a laminar flow hood, a bottle of H2S, and a raw coin. Now, let say you open the gas bottle just enough for a miniscule flow of h2s. The coin will have to be held by the rims for the gas to flow over the surface without impediment, say with a clamp of some type that is secure but just touches the rims at a couple or 3 points. The coin is downwind of the gas, the gas flows over the silver surface for a while. Now, silver sulfide should develop on the surface, to lesser or greater degrees, thus different colors (see rob790's toning thread re: thin film interference with light waves), according to various variables, like time, rate of flow, even angle of attack of the gas versus coin surface. Trial and error should get a toned coin of some kind.
Now, I just made that up as I typed. However, many of you claim that you know how it's done, yet won't say, cuz yer such stellar human beings and all, right?
Naw, I think you're liars. And those of you who have made these claims, like that guy on page 1, you all know who you are, and others do too. Let's hear it. Lightning did not strike me. I was not shot (Ken, I know you'll appreciate that reference). Nothing bad will happen if you describe your methods. Also nothing bad will happen if you admit you were just blowing it out your butt all this time. A little toning humor there.
OK, let's hear the toning methods.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>I forgot the "poopy baby diaper" technique too.... >>
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>I've seen some Merc dimes that started out white, and were then turned into rainbow toners using Wayte Raymond albums. The owner, a member here, had them slabbed by PCGS and then sold them. So much for hypotheticals. >>
Sounds like PCGS got it right because album toning is NT?
<< <i>When properly done, AT cannot be distinguished from NT.... and when the toning is dubious, it is slabbed market acceptable. Cheers, RickO >>
Or...it come back in a BB marked as "Questionable Color" ...a vote of no commitment by the graders...
(edited for sloppy spelling)
<< <i>Just suppose further that you "hit" upon the "perfect" method. >>
Whether you're conscious of it or not, you've already decided to deceive the world the moment you started experimenting. Once you've found the perfect method, you'll try to convince yourself that it's okay to doctor a few more coins since you'll be doing a favor to those who collect such coins. One thing then leads to another and before you know it you'll be convinced that "if it looks NT, it is NT". FULL STEAM AHEAD!!!
<< <i>I never considered putting a coin in an old album, newspaper, or a taco bell napkin to tone a method of 'artificially toning' a coin, because these methods allow the coin to tone naturally. >>
This reminds me of the Chiuawawa in that old tv commerical..
Chiuawawa says: Yo quiero Taco Bell !
Gardnerville, NV
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<< <i>Actually, putting mint state coins into a Whitman Classic album and then storing them in a warm place will reliably tone mints state coins, and most will turn out looking very nice. The question is how long you must wait, not IF they will tone. >>
I beg to differ. I have several Whitman albums in my Florida garage. They've been there for 20 years. Not a speck of toning whatsoever on ANY of the coins, silver or nickel. I believe ALL colorful toning is AT. I've got the right conditions, according to those who tout the colorful coins. If they don't tone in my hot, Florida garage in 20 years, in a Whitman album, they are never going to tone under natural conditions.
Jonathan