ICCS not on Ebay's approved TPG list......
DoubleEagle59
Posts: 8,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know maybe I should post this on the World Coin forum but this just gets me all steamed up and shows us how very little Ebay knows or cares when they make a policy change.
For you that do not know, ICCS to a Canadian coin collector is like PCGS (on their best day) to a collector of US coins.
Up to a few years ago, ICCS has been the only TPG in Canada and 99% of Canadian collectors would definitely buy a Canadian coin, sight unseen, at full 'bid' price, if it was graded by ICCS.
For Ebay not to include ICCS is just crazy.
I hope a lot of Canadian dealers bombard Ebay with news of this injustice.
For you that do not know, ICCS to a Canadian coin collector is like PCGS (on their best day) to a collector of US coins.
Up to a few years ago, ICCS has been the only TPG in Canada and 99% of Canadian collectors would definitely buy a Canadian coin, sight unseen, at full 'bid' price, if it was graded by ICCS.
For Ebay not to include ICCS is just crazy.
I hope a lot of Canadian dealers bombard Ebay with news of this injustice.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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Russ, NCNE
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
If the answer to all three of those is "yes" I can see eBay coming around. If the answer to one or more of those is "no" then I can see them being disqualified.
They have been criticised for years regarding these matters.
Their office and equipment is very low tech. They do however, know their 'coins' and are highly respected.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>ICCS does not have a website and they only use sealed slips. >>
Sounds like their "slabs" may be easy to counterfeit. Do they use PVC flips? Anyone have a good pic of their product?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I am sure that if you have any problem with their grading that they will consult with you, spend the time and possibly rectify the error (if any).
The good thing about ICCS, is because they are a small outfit, you always deal with the people in charge.
You sometimes hear stories of how they grade more favorably for certain people/companies than others (like similar rumors of other TPG's, I suppose), but personally, I find them to be very ethical, very consistent in their grading and all around nice people to 'chat' with.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Link eBay
<< <i>For Ebay not to include ICCS is just crazy. >>
Nah, just ignorant.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Looking at their "holders", I would guess that they will never qualify......
Link eBay >>
I agree. I think eBay would have an easier time including them if they made some changes to their business practices.
Also, some respected people have argued that a TPG needs to offer a meaningful, written guarantee to be called certified.
Here's a pic of their grading cert.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
Do they have a guarantee if their opinion turns out to be wrong?
Did most of the coins go back to ICCS, or did you send them to the US grading companies?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I know if they misattribute a coin, they will certainly correct the grading without charging for it.
If that constitutes their guarantee, then I guess they have one afterall.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>
<< <i>Do they have a guarantee if their opinion turns out to be wrong? >>
I know if they misattribute a coin, they will certainly correct the grading without charging for it.
If that constitutes their guarantee, then I guess they have one afterall. >>
Most TPG guarantees will pay you the difference between the market value of what they said the coin was and what it actually turns out to be. That or simply buy the coin back at market prices for what they said it was.
What you described isn't a guarantee because they aren't standing behind their attribution if the only thing they do is offer to change it. Also, if that is their policy, is that policy written down anywhere?
<< <i>Do they have a guarantee? >>
Do they? Good question.
I'm definitely not qualified to fully answer your questions regarding ICCS's guarantee policy.
I would hazard a guess that they do not have a 'pay the difference' guarantee, but I could be wrong.
If anybody wants to inquire, here is their Toronto office phone number 1 (416) 488-8620
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Holy Smoke Russ! I see a lot of ICCS certs without coins in them!!
Did most of the coins go back to ICCS, or did you send them to the US grading companies? >>
It was a Canadian set that I handled. The coins had been put in to Wayte Raymond albums, but the collector kept all the certs.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I would hazard a guess that they do not have a 'pay the difference' guarantee, but I could be wrong. >>
The literature included with the submission package I received from them a year or two ago makes no mention of a 'pay the difference' guarantee.
Also, does this new ruling keep ICCS, actually every grading co. not on the approved list, from selling their services on eBay? They could use a BIN and quanity style setup.
Jerry
<< <i>Maybe they need a lawyer who knows the NAFTA ins and outs. Ya never know.
Also, does this new ruling keep ICCS, actually every grading co. not on the approved list, from selling their services on eBay? They could use a BIN and quanity style setup. >>
I think ICCS, PCI, SGS etc. will have a harder time if eBay uses objective attributes to determine whether a TPG qualifies or not, e.g. does the TPG have a guarantee. The main thing with free trade agreements is that you have to treat foreign companies the same way you treat domestic companies. If you require both foreign and domestic companies to have a guarantee, a website, and hard slabs, then there's probably nothing ICCS can do under restraint of trade.
The problem here is that eBay is going to try to make their TPG approval determination idiot-proof (creating a checklist of required features rather than making a considered evaluation of the company's performance and reputation), so that eBay worker bees who know nothing about coins can manage item listings.
<< <i>Given that ICCS is a well respected grading company, I'm not sure I see how grouping them with less well regarded services benefits buyer or sellers. >>
It benefits buyers and sellers because if eBay doesn't use objective determiners, they could probably get sued for making a subjective opinion like the ANA was sued. Then someone would bring up the fact that the third-world TPGs aren't being misleading because no one uses the ANA grading scale, it's the PCGS or SGS grading scale. I wasn't able to find any mention of PCGS using the ANA grading scale on the PCGS website. Then we'd be back where we are now.
I think it would be better for ICCS to create a website, use hard slabs and offer a guarantee. If eBay allows ICCS the way they are now, the entire program may be doomed to failure.
<< <i>It benefits buyers and sellers because if eBay doesn't use objective determiners, they could probably get sued for making a subjective opinion like the ANA was sued. >>
It benefits buyers and sellers that the factors used for determining eBay's approved TPG list will be mainly geared towards trying not to get sued instead of trying to help people find items graded by respected grading companies? I don't know...
In the interim, I hope to be able to search for ICCS coins until Ebay gets smart enough to add them to the 'approved' list.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
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<< <i>
<< <i>It benefits buyers and sellers because if eBay doesn't use objective determiners, they could probably get sued for making a subjective opinion like the ANA was sued. >>
It benefits buyers and sellers that the factors used for determining eBay's approved TPG list will be mainly geared towards trying not to get sued instead of trying to help people find items graded by respected grading companies? I don't know... >>
It benefits buyers and sellers because the program is more likely to succeed if they use objective determiners than subjective ones.
<< <i>It benefits buyers and sellers because the program is more likely to succeed if they use objective determiners than subjective ones. >>
One of the issues regarding ICCS is their apparent lack of written guarantee, yet you can find any number of eBay sellers that the posters here consider scumbags (or insert your own colorful term if you prefer), who include a written no-questions-asked money back guarantee in their auctions that they apparently honor.
Which would you prefer to do business with? A well-respected business that doesn't have a specified guarantee policy or one with a shady reputation which does have a written guarantee?
<< <i>
<< <i>It benefits buyers and sellers because the program is more likely to succeed if they use objective determiners than subjective ones. >>
One of the issues regarding ICCS is their apparent lack of written guarantee, yet you can find any number of eBay sellers that the posters here consider scumbags (or insert your own colorful term if you prefer), who include a written no-questions-asked money back guarantee in their auctions that they apparently honor.
Which would you prefer to do business with? A well-respected business that doesn't have a specified guarantee policy or one with a shady reputation which does have a written guarantee? >>
This is about the TPG, not the eBay seller. This is also about how valid the guarantee is. There are a number of prominent people that say a guarantee is needed to be considered "certified" in a thread ATS, started by MF I believe.
The problem I see with ICCS is that there may be nothing that objectively separates them from the objectionable TPGs.
Re: ICCS Coins Officially Out On Ebay
I don't normally monitor this site as we just don't have the time however.we recieved a disturbing call yesterday that I feel compelled to share with everyone.Our Ebay rep Molly, who we have been in contact with many times over the last few years primarily when we were running our Ebay Live auctions called to give me a personal overview of their new policy. Any of you who have been at a floor auction and wittnessed Ebay lock up on us know our frustration. She's the lucky lady who we would vent upon. Anyway,she called directly to inform us that the upper echelon at Ebay has decided to recognize only 5 grading services on their platform and without exception.They are ANACS,NGC,NCCS,ICG and PCGS. Starting Monday no listing will be allowed to have the grade or grading service listed in the header unless it is graded by one of the 5 approved services. If it is not,it is to be considered a raw coin. Needles to say, I had lots to say and to Molly's credit "she"was very empathetic to "our" woes however, it is not her call she is simply the messenger. I practically begged for the oportunity for a grouip of us to have at least a conference call with Ebay management responsible for this decision but she was quick to point out that at this juncture it is not a topic open for discussion as this has not been a rash decision but, rather a long and arduous one going back over a year on their part. I pointed out that this is a major blow to the Canadian coin business and to ICCS. I was adamant in the fact that ICCS and Brian Cornwell were beyond reproach in their ethics and contributions to numismatics in Canada in the last 25 years. ICCS coins constitute probably 80% of real coin sales at auction and the prices realized are often multiples of what other certified coins bring in the same grade. We used to keep track of hits on coins on our website before an auction and the ICCS coins would have for instance 20- 200+ hits and the other services of the same coin and grade would have 0- less than 5 so you tell me which service has the greater respect in the Canadian collector's eyes? I asked how a collector is now supposed to do a search for their coins of interest and she stated it will no longer be possible as a search will not pick up the key words in the body or description of the coin ad. Any listings from Monday forward will be removed if they do not comply and one time warnings of suspension from Ebay will be given. The body of the ad can give the grade and the photo can have the holder visible. I told Molly that it is very unlikely that a collector will manually scan thousands of coins looking for just 2or 3 coins that fit his/her criteria.Unfortunately that is what they will have to do at this point was her response. Sandy and I had discussed this earlier in the week but it did come as a surprise so qucikly. The amazing thing to me is that Ebay was never in contact with Brian at ICCS which I found out when I immediately called him with the news. They obviously don't give a $*&% about the well being of the innocent but they don't do a damn thing about the crooks of their platform. We have a guy who gave us 2 negative feedback about 6 months ago and has been back on with 3 different ID's since.We have multiple foul letters from this jerk which were forwarded by us and others to Ebay and he is still on their system screwing people out of their items every week and they do nothing! Yet we have hundreds of good people trying to make an honest living with a great affordable product that works and Ebay puts the screws to it. Go figure.....
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>The problem I see with ICCS is that there may be nothing that objectively separates them from the objectionable TPGs. >>
Well, aside from the fact that everybody I've ever talked to who is involved with Canadian coins considers ICCS as every bit as legitimate and dependable as PCGS or NGC, I guess you're right.
Bottom line- until ICCS's performance proves otherwise, grouping them with self-slabbers is doing a disservice to collectors of Canadian coins.
<< <i>everybody I've ever talked to who is involved with Canadian coins considers ICCS as every bit as legitimate and dependable as PCGS or NGC >>
You mean they have an authenticity guarantee that is every bit as dependable as those from PCGS and NGC? What if a coin turns in an ICCS holder? Is ICCS every bit as dependable there as well?
Bottom line: Is ICCS's availability of a guarantee for genuine material and/or coins that turn in their holders closer to that of PCGS or SGS?
<< <i> Bottom line: Is ICCS's availability of a guarantee for genuine material and/or coins that turn in their holders closer to that of PCGS or SGS? >>
It has been my experience that most Canadian coin collectors consider that question irrelevant.
You're free to conclude that ICCS is no better than SGS if you like, but I think, if you ask experienced Canadian collectors, you won't find much agreement.
<< <i>
<< <i> Bottom line: Is ICCS's availability of a guarantee for genuine material and/or coins that turn in their holders closer to that of PCGS or SGS? >>
It has been my experience that most Canadian coin collectors consider that question irrelevant.
You're free to conclude that ICCS is no better than SGS if you like, but I think, if you ask experienced Canadian collectors, you won't find much agreement. >>
I'm more interested in asking eBay's lawyers
<< <i>I'm more interested in asking eBay's lawyers
You know what? I think we can probably both agree that's the bottom line.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm more interested in asking eBay's lawyers
You know what? I think we can probably both agree that's the bottom line.
I was flabbergasted as well when I saw it was excluded from the epay list of approved grading services.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>To get approved, they would only need to contribute money to the ANA and become the "Official Canadian Coin Grading Company of the ANA". >>
Perhaps all ICCS has to do is offer a guarantee like ICG does:
<< <i>Any customer may resubmit any coin for review of the grade assigned by ICG if such customer believes that such coin has been over-graded or for review of such coin's authenticity. If the coin submitted for review by a customer receives a lower grade than the grade originally assigned or has questionable authenticity under ICG's internal review practices, ICG shall, at ICG's option, either (a) replace the coin, or (b) pay any difference between the current fair market value of such coin at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such coin. >>
Or like ANACS does:
<< <i>In the event the owner of an ANACS-graded coin believes that it has been overgraded under the ANACS standards, policies and procedures, the owner may submit the coin to ANACS for re-examination under a procedure which precludes the graders from being aware of the grade originally assigned. If the re-examination grade is lower than the grade originally assigned by ANACS, ANACS agrees to either replace the coin at the new and correct grade or to pay to the owner of the coin the difference between the coin’s fair market value at the re-examination grade and the fair market value at the grade originally assigned by ANACS. >>
I think Brian should contact eBay and get to the bottom of this.
<< <i>With the grading that ICG is doing for HSN, I wouldn't believe one of their labels. >>
Some dealers don't blindly believe labels from any TPG!