Communism isn't the opposite of capitalism. In fact, they're complementary philosophies. That's why communist China has embraced capitalism.
Free market economics, on the other hand, is chaos/anarchy. Communists and capitalists are authoritarians. Free market economics is, therefore, incompatible with both capitalism and communism.
<< <i>How was slavery or Jim Crow laws unethical if they were not only allowed but edorsed by representitives of government?? Do you think they were unethical even though allowed ?? Ebay like the government is a monoply with no competition. What ever rules they want to make they can for this reason. Same as government. I agree that under the present laws ebay has every right to make rules and conditions that favor their stockholders and themselves. That being said maybe a little civil disobedience could persuade them to make changes. It has happened before. As to sniping, there are many things that are allowed but not necessarily ethical. Allowed is just another word for permitted. Dave
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>
Using a basic human rights example seems a bit silly... this is not about a basic human right, but about using the services of a website that has rules. Those rules DO NOT infringe on anyones basic human rights, so we don't get to go around flaunting the rules under the guise of fighting the good fight for the betterment of mankind. Pointing out that others have done unethical things under the guise of following the law before is more excuse making. Knowlingly breaking ebays rules is unethical. There is no squirming out from that fact. Knowlingly breaking any rule in a society or group that you chose to take part in and enjoy the benefits of membership in is unethical.
I do not agree that there are any issues with sniping. What is unethical about making a last minute bid? The price a person puts in is what they are willing to pay. A sniper is no different. They make a bid for what they are willing to pay. The fact that they do it last minute does not matter. When is it sniping? Two seconds out, thirty, one minute? If a sniper wins, then they bid MORE than anyone who bid earlier. Again, this is good for the seller. If they don't win, they advance the bid increments, which is good for the seller. If an auction runs 24 hours, there is no ethical issue with placing a bid for what you are willing to pay at any time during that time period. It is free market economics at work: the item will sell for what whomever is willing to pay the most has bid for it. Regardless of when the bids come in. >>
Sorry, but I've read too many stories right here on the forum of sellers suffering great losses and other posts of snipers bragging about their rips. Plus the posts applauding and congratulating the rippers.
I used to list a lot of really nice certified coins before sniping became so popular. I quit it after several times having coins that bid on the grey sheet for $4000-$5000 get no bids to speak of until seconds before they ended. Then look with disgust and dismay at the final price of 60% or less. Then I started pulling my auctions with 12+ hours left( whoops unethical I guess to disappoint the sharks). If one sniper bids $1000 on a $4000 coin and the successful sniper bids $5000 and there's nothing in between, the successful sniper gets the coin for $1100. So now I only sell at fixed price from my ebay store to real collectors who appreciate quality coins. When the majority of bidders are holding back their bids in hope of holding the final price down to a rip then I place them in the same category as the dealer who trys to rip a coin by making an insulting offer. The end result and motive is the same. An attempt to snag the coin for far less than it's worth. If these were true collectors competing for a coin this would be far less of a problem. They would all be trying to snag the coin for their collection. That's how it use to be. Today ebay is populated mostly by day traders who bid on anything and everything if they can by it at a rip off price and flip it for a profit. They emulate the hated dealers in every way but are too hypocritical to admit it. My allusion to human rights cases might have been a poor anology due to the seriousness of the issue compared to the triviality of this one but I was trying to illustrate that not everything that is accepted by a majority of people is necessarily ethical. A lynch mob comes to mind but maybe that's too gross an analogy also. But they did happen and the community either accepted it or were apathetic. Now there are harsh laws against it' Anytime people are continually getting ripped off financially there is some unethical behavior going on. It's just not a big enough issue to get the attention of the power people and therefore there is no law against it. I do miss selling my coins on a no reserve auction but I couldn't continue to suffer the losses. There must be many more like me and that's a shame. If you don't consider that an "issue" then I guess there's no point in trying to convince you. There is now hardly anything for a collector worth bidding on. Just raw stuff that may or not be problem coins and the third world garbage that makes money for the seller whether it gets sniped or not since it's usually worth 30% of market or less and there will always be suckers who think they are getting a bargain. But I guess that's not an "issue" either. Dave W
<< <i>When the majority of bidders are holding back their bids in hope of holding the final price down to a rip then I place them in the same category as the dealer who trys to rip a coin by making an insulting offer. >>
That's silly. In fact, it's one of the silliest things I've ever seen posted here. I suppose that when you buy a car you just pay the sticker price, right? I mean you would never dream of trying to RIP that poor car dealer by negotiating a deal that saves you some money, right?
<< <i>If one sniper bids $1000 on a $4000 coin and the successful sniper bids $5000 and there's nothing in between, the successful sniper gets the coin for $1100. >>
I don't understand how someone willing to pay 25% more than the coin's current value is ripping anyone.
Seems to me, the problem here is getting bidders to participate. If you (in general) can't entice people to bid (for whatever reason) or eBay isn't bringing them to the site, whose responsibility is that, anyway?
What an interesting thread... As to sniping - you made my point. Because of a sniper (#2), in your scenario, you just got $100 more than you would have without the sniper! If you had 0 bids before that, then there is a problem with your auction, and you should not be blaming snipers for being the only people willing to bid the auction.
My experience is that well described items sell for what they are worth. Winners get a 'rip' a lot less than rip off artists get a huge score by selling overgraded junk for PQ dollars. But, that is neither here nor there. The reallity is, that is how auctions work. You put up an item, and bidders bid or don't, and you get what they pay. If you don't like the risk, use a reserve, or start the auction at a reasonable price. Some bidders don't like that, I know, but you can't have it both ways: you either take the risk and maximize your exposure to bidders, or you reduce your risk and chase away some.
I will never be convinced that last minute bidders do anything but bid up the final price, which is good for sellers. The fact that they did not bid 'early' is not a fault in the system, it is a bidding strategy, and bidders, like sellers, are entitled to use their strategies. Some bid early, some don't. Just like some sellers use one day auctions, and some use 7 day auctions. To cut the snipers out will only reduce bids and prices realized.
And yes, I know, you don't agree! I can live with it if you can.
<< <i>The reallity is, that is how auctions work. You put up an item, and bidders bid or don't, and you get what they pay. >>
That seems pretty straighforward, and I don't see where potential buyers in this scenario have any obligation (moral or otherwise) to bid up an item to a price level the seller considers satisfactory.
<< <i>When the majority of bidders are holding back their bids in hope of holding the final price down to a rip then I place them in the same category as the dealer who trys to rip a coin by making an insulting offer. >>
That's silly. In fact, it's one of the silliest things I've ever seen posted here. I suppose that when you buy a car you just pay the sticker price, right? I mean you would never dream of trying to RIP that poor car dealer by negotiating a deal that saves you some money, right?
Russ, NCNE >>
Let's see. I've read my statement over several times and I read nothing that equates to paying sticker price for a car or not negotiating for a better price for a coin. Trying to make these two themes mesh is more than silly. It is fantasy. There is a hellava difference in negotiating a better but fair price and totally ripping a coin.In the first case the buyer and seller finally agree to what satisfies both parties. In the second case the seller is exposing himself to a system designed to keep the price from reaching market value.Sorry Russ that dog just won't hunt. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>Let's see. I've read my statement over several times and I read nothing that equates to paying sticker price for a car or not negotiating for a better price for a coin. Trying to make these two themes mesh is more than silly. It is fantasy. >>
The two mesh perfectly. The only difference is the negotiation method. Some bidders put out their best offer early, some bidders put out their best offer late. The seller opened the negotiation by voluntarily entering the eBay marketplace. The fact that it's electronic rather than face-to-face, (welcome to the 21st century), is irrelevant.
<< <i>In the second case the seller is exposing himself to a system designed to keep the price from reaching market value. >>
Here's a clue that might hurt: In an auction format, the final price is the market value. Now, if you're getting hosed perhaps you should do a little more research before you buy a coin for resale.
Your assertion that sniping is unethical is specious at best, and nothing more than sour grapes at worst.
The argument against sniping is purely that of a seller who wants the most they can get no matter what.
A person who snipes isn't trying to rip anybody. They are putting in their max bid (hidden to all but them and ebay) and hoping to get it lower. If I put in a snipe of $500 on a $500 coin, and I get the coin for $100, did I TRY to rip anybody? Nope. I had my max bid.
Someone who is trying to rip someone else is putting in that $0.99 max bid on a $0.99 start for a coin worth much more than that.
Neither he, nor the sniper, is unethical. Each is within the rules.
I buy, and I sell, and I find both valid and have no problems. Just like I have no problem with someone starting a bid at $500 for a $500 coin. If I agree, and I want it, I will bid. If not, I will pass.
For the original intent of the post in question that started all this.....I could easily see where ebay would remove the auction as that does violate ebay rules. The person whose auction it was/is is slightly testy about it and most likely realized it wasn't within the rules.
Too many egos on the boards again right now.....people need to learn to relax
<< <i>What an interesting thread... As to sniping - you made my point. Because of a sniper (#2), in your scenario, you just got $100 more than you would have without the sniper! If you had 0 bids before that, then there is a problem with your auction, and you should not be blaming snipers for being the only people willing to bid the auction.
My experience is that well described items sell for what they are worth. Winners get a 'rip' a lot less than rip off artists get a huge score by selling overgraded junk for PQ dollars. But, that is neither here nor there. The reallity is, that is how auctions work. You put up an item, and bidders bid or don't, and you get what they pay. If you don't like the risk, use a reserve, or start the auction at a reasonable price. Some bidders don't like that, I know, but you can't have it both ways: you either take the risk and maximize your exposure to bidders, or you reduce your risk and chase away some.
I will never be convinced that last minute bidders do anything but bid up the final price, which is good for sellers. The fact that they did not bid 'early' is not a fault in the system, it is a bidding strategy, and bidders, like sellers, are entitled to use their strategies. Some bid early, some don't. Just like some sellers use one day auctions, and some use 7 day auctions. To cut the snipers out will only reduce bids and prices realized.
And yes, I know, you don't agree! I can live with it if you can. >>
Well no I don't agree but as someone who often posts here says" a sign of maturity is entertaining an idea without accepting it". The whole idea of this forum is to debate opposing ideas in a civil manner to the betterment of the hobby. I do disagree with your statement that that's the way auctions are run. It should read "that's the way ebay auctions are run". Major auctions are not run this way at all. There are variations in the way different houses conduct their auctions but all of them encourage people to bid high if they want to stand a chance to win the coin. In many cases the reserve has been met before the floor auction takes place. The only times I see bidders witholding serious bids is when the consignor won't reveal his reserve until the last minute.(Perhaps the reverse of sniping?) On an ebay reserve auction of 10 days for a $4000 item the first thirty bids reach maybe $317.50. These are bookmark bids so the bidders can find their way back to the auction in a hurry. The example you cited of the seller getting more at $1100 than he would have with out a sniper is slightly flawed. Since everyone is sniping the bidder has to guess at the last minute what to bid. In a regular auction where the high bid is exposed and bidders have time to think that $1100 bid would never stand, there would be too much competition. If the auction were to remain open until after the last bid was in and there were no more bids for 1 minute the end results would be much more favorable to the seller without forcing anyone to pay more than a coin is worth. This is what happens at a regular auction. As I stated in a previous post I am not making a judgement against snipers. They are only doing what is deemed acceptable and good strategy by their peers. And no one need welcome me to the world of auctions.(Thanks Russ) I have been attending them for longer than many posters have lived. I buy most of my coins at major auctions and consign a minimum of $500,000 a year in nice coins that just haven't sold. Some of the people who wouldn't enter serious bids on ebay will bid some of these for more than I was asking. Funny. Since I can do both successfully must make it a fair and logical place to conduct business. Unfortunately I can only use ebay as an advertising venue and I no longer list any thing for auction. Fixed price listings are very inexpensive in my ebay store and between sales from there and my website plus sales at coin shows I do ok. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>Let's see. I've read my statement over several times and I read nothing that equates to paying sticker price for a car or not negotiating for a better price for a coin. Trying to make these two themes mesh is more than silly. It is fantasy. >>
The two mesh perfectly. The only difference is the negotiation method. Some bidders put out their best offer early, some bidders put out their best offer late. The seller opened the negotiation by voluntarily entering the eBay marketplace. The fact that it's electronic rather than face-to-face, (welcome to the 21st century), is irrelevant.
<< <i>In the second case the seller is exposing himself to a system designed to keep the price from reaching market value. >>
Here's a clue that might hurt: In an auction format, the final price is the market value. Now, if you're getting hosed perhaps you should do a little more research before you buy a coin for resale.
Your assertion that sniping is unethical is specious at best, and nothing more than sour grapes at worst.
Russ, NCNE >>
Now that really is silly. To make your hypothisis work you would have to show that ebay auctions bring the same price as regular auctions. The price may be the ebay market price but definitely not the true market price. I HAVE researched this extensively and can assure you they don't. Do you even entertain the possibility that this can be a reason why the quality high grade coins have all but disappeared from ebay auctions? Can you even see any credibility in the fact that most savvy sellers who used to sell in ebay auctions no longer do so and instead consign to regular auctions. If you feel that disparaging my abilities at buying and selling is the way to make your point then feel free. I've always considered personal attacks a sign that one is losing a debate. But I'm not young enough to know everything. Dave W
<< <i>I think ebay stinks. The fees, the rules, the games, the whole site is a joke if you ask me (as far as US COINS are concerned, they are the worst venue). It doesn't matter what sort of BUSINESS PLAN they have. WalMart has a great plan too and I feel the same about them. A necessary evil in the scope of commerce just like gas for my truck ! >>
That's not a subjective analysis. That's an objective statement.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>There are variations in the way different houses conduct their auctions but all of them encourage people to bid high if they want to stand a chance to win the coin. >>
I found this advice on eBay under the help section for bidding:
"Placing a high bid in the closing seconds of an auction-style listing is called “sniping” within the eBay Community. Sniping is part of the eBay experience, and all bids placed before a listing ends are valid - even if they're placed one second before the listing ends.
To help avoid disappointment, ensure that the maximum bid you enter on the item page is the highest price that you're willing to pay."
<< <i>Sorry, but I've read too many stories right here on the forum of sellers suffering great losses >>
Boo hoo. Welcome to the marketplace.
Russ, NCNE >>
Additionally, whoever whines about this is overlooking the reasons other than "ebay" for such losses such as poor photos, poor descriptions, overcharging for shipping, and quality not up to snuff with what the seller thinks it is.
<< <i>I think ebay stinks. The fees, the rules, the games, the whole site is a joke if you ask me (as far as US COINS are concerned, they are the worst venue). It doesn't matter what sort of BUSINESS PLAN they have. WalMart has a great plan too and I feel the same about them. A necessary evil in the scope of commerce just like gas for my truck ! >>
That's not a subjective analysis. That's an objective statement. >>
<< <i>Sorry, but I've read too many stories right here on the forum of sellers suffering great losses >>
Boo hoo. Welcome to the marketplace.
Russ, NCNE >>
Additionally, whoever whines about this is overlooking the reasons other than "ebay" for such losses such as poor photos, poor descriptions, overcharging for shipping, and quality not up to snuff with what the seller thinks it is. >>
I certainly can't argue that all of the above are contributing factors to the downward trend of ebay auctions. It is not now nor ever was my intention to appear as a whiner in this matter. I have already stated that I am no longer involved in ebay auctions. Perhaps I picked the wrong thread to express my opinions on sniping. It no longer affects me one way or the other. What does concern me (and should concern everyone) is the vanishing act for quality certified coins on ebay auctions. Take a look. There's nothing out there but raw coins that may have problems and third world crap. The sellers are not going to expose themselves to these losses and are finding other venues to sell their coins. These are facts. Whether my opinions or yours are correct is not the issue. The fact is ebay is going downhill. Is my diagnosis so unreasonable to be scoffed at as "not possible". Sellers of quality coins have abandoned ebay no reserve auctions as a viable selling venue. I will repeat once more: none of this affects me directly as I along with many others no longer participate. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>Do you even entertain the possibility that this can be a reason why the quality high grade coins have all but disappeared from ebay auctions? >>
I would entertain that possibility if your assertion that quality coins have "all but disappeared" from eBay were actually true. It isn't. There's still plenty of quality material being sold. Apparently, though, some coin dealers simply do not understand the eBay marketplace and thus like to grouse about all those nasty, mean bidders trying to rip them off.
<< <i>As I stated in a previous post I am not making a judgement against snipers. >>
You claim that you're not making a judgement against snipers, yet you have repeatedly stated that the practice is unethical, (which, of course, it isn't). That certainly is a judgement by any definition.
<< <i>And no one need welcome me to the world of auctions.(Thanks Russ) >>
I didn't welcome you to auctions, I welcomed you to the 21st century.
1. Anyone that violates eBay's rules against fee avoidance and then tries to justify it or defend the infractor is an idiot at best and dishonest at worst (or perhaps if both even worse yet). Those that steal from eBay cost everyone else that uses eBay money in the form of the commensurately higher fees eBay charges to make up for the lowlifes that evade their fair share of the fees.
2. Anyone that thinks sniping is unethical is an idiot at best or the worst kind of close minded seller or uninforned buyer at worst.
<< <i>In the second case the seller is exposing himself to a system designed to keep the price from reaching market value.Sorry Russ that dog just won't hunt. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>
Why do your arguments, over and over again, include attempts to belittle the other person who disagrees with you?
What an odd conspiracy theory. How many here would do business over eBay if you didn't think you would get market value. Market value is what the public is willing to pay at the time of the sale.
Well at least RBinTex kinda brought this thread back OT.
So, using RBinTex's hypothesis, if you drive 66mph (or higher!) on the freeway (where the limit is 65) and then slow back down to 65, you are also low-lifes because you drive (no pun intended) the cost of tickets for speeders that are caught higher, right?
Ooooops (to continue the apparent summary of the thread), Forgot #'s 4 & 5 - actually these should be #3 & #4 and "flame away" should be #5
4. Surely one must also be an idiot (or unschooled in economics) to argue that a coin that sells in an eBay auction DOES NOT sell at "market value" (whatever it is at the time given numerous - probably way too many to mention - variables).
Market value (at any given point in time - as many markets are both imperfect AND fluid) is the price at which a willing buyer and a willing seller conduct a transaction at.
The ability (or lack therof) to replicate any particular (auction in this case) result in no way diminishes the fact that a given transaction reflected the TRUE market value of a particular item at a given point in time - again, given MANY variables:
e.g. - auction length, start/end time, the way the title (& if applicable, the subtitle) was worded, the way the listing was layed out and worded, the unique combination of upgrades the listing had, the sellers reputation &/or track record, the presence/absence/quality of images, saturation level of a particular item with respect to how many others have been sold in a particular time period, whether the dow dove 300 that particular day, whatever etc., etc., etc....
5. There's still plenty of high quality coins on eBay but more and more sellers opt for the increased lack of transparency, subtle biases, and increased options for manipulation that other auction venues such as Teletrade, Heritage, etc. offer.
ajia - you're speeder analogy (if I understand it correctly) is falacious since the action of the "law-abider" drove up the costs for the "law-breakers". The analogy with respect to eBay is the exact opposite. The cheaters - i.e. "fee avoiders" (just like tax evaders) drive up the costs for all the honest folk.
Fee avoiders do not drive up the price to list items on Ebay.Ebay is not a good venue to determine fair market value as 90% of the coin auctions there are problem or crap over graded coins, everyone knows this and this is the reason quality coins do not do good on Ebay.Sure once in awhile you may find a good coin on Ebay but how many crap auctions do you have to look at to find one good coin?Most the dealers in my area quit selling on Ebay because thier coins were not bringing fair market value so they went to other venues and are doing much better.
''Coin collecting is the only hobby where you can spend all your money and still have some left''
I have to ask you Dave, if you had a $150.00 Coin up for auction, started it at 99 cents, I put in a bid on ebay of $120.00, what I'm willing to pay and no one else bids on it, I wind up winning the auction for 99 Cents, did I rip you off? No. Maybe if a snipper was willing to pay up to $130.00 and his bid goes in with 4 seconds to go, he win's for $130.00, did he rip you off? No. Do I allow myself to get in a bidding war, not anymore, I learned that lesson on my first few auctions. If it's really rare it will get the price it deserves, do I look for bargains? All day long. I will put in bids on dozens of items using eSnipe, I win some and I lose some, but I do not pay more than I am willing to spend.
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
walkerman: If you so detest "snipers", then you are certainly free to post your coins for auction elsewhere. Going by your "logic" if an auction is supposed to run until 11:45pm on a certain day, are all of the bidders required to submit their bids by 11:30pm???
Auctions start and finish at ADVERTISED TIMES. Don't like it??? Sell on Yahoo
Every schoolyard has a a cheater, a tattletale, a know-it-all, a bully, a peacemaker, and a philosopher. And they're all right - just not always at the same time.
<< <i>walkerman: If you so detest "snipers", then you are certainly free to post your coins for auction elsewhere. Going by your "logic" if an auction is supposed to run until 11:45pm on a certain day, are all of the bidders required to submit their bids by 11:30pm???
Auctions start and finish at ADVERTISED TIMES. Don't like it??? Sell on Yahoo
Bruce >>
Bruce: Apparently you and a lot of others are reading what you want to read in my posts. I can't say it any plainer and I don't want to shout in caps. So listen up one more time. I don't do ebay auctions any more. Or yahoo. or any other similar venues. I don't detest snipers. They are only doing what everyone else is doing. I am only offering my opinion as to why many other dealers of high end certified coins have also quit selling in ebay no reserve auctions. Check it out. These dealers like my self only list at fixed price. What's left are: raw coins that may or may not be problem coins auctioned with no return policy. third world crap that's not worth 30% of market. people dumping generic gold. I never see better date gold anymore with no reserve. Ebay used to be loaded with no reserve auctions. I suggest the sellers have done like me and now consign their coins to regular auctions where my research shows they are getting a better return. If ebay no reserve auctions were more profitable they would still be selling there. There's no point in anyone suggesting if I don't like it to leave. I have already left. I am doing quite well with my fixed price listings, my ebay store, my website, and coin shows. I still buy coins on ebay from the fixed price listings but I find less and less that interests me in the no reserve auctions. I'm still of the opinion that sniping has had a negative effect on prices realized and ebay is now becoming more like a flea market. A dumping place for unwanted goods. This opinion has apparently angered many on this forum but there's no need to shoot the messenger. And I'm not angry at anyone. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>I have to ask you Dave, if you had a $150.00 Coin up for auction, started it at 99 cents, I put in a bid on ebay of $120.00, what I'm willing to pay and no one else bids on it, I wind up winning the auction for 99 Cents, did I rip you off? No. Maybe if a snipper was willing to pay up to $130.00 and his bid goes in with 4 seconds to go, he win's for $130.00, did he rip you off? No. Do I allow myself to get in a bidding war, not anymore, I learned that lesson on my first few auctions. If it's really rare it will get the price it deserves, do I look for bargains? All day long. I will put in bids on dozens of items using eSnipe, I win some and I lose some, but I do not pay more than I am willing to spend. >>
It doesn't matter who rips the seller off. When he keeps losing money doing things a certain way he changes his MO. Whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not the fact is many, many sellers of ebay no reserve auctions have moved on to greener pastures. Dave W
apparently this thread falls into the "takes on a life of its own" category, certainly not my intention to have it go where it's gone. hopefully noone has been too offended by anything posted and i'd offer an apology if i've done that.
i would, however, ask anyone who cares to look at this thread to understand that my intention was just a follow-up to that week old question asking if this sort of practice was allowable under eBay's rules. also, if you look back to page one, things were begun rather lightheartedly with no names and a after someone acknowledged that the seller was a member here. that was overlooked after things changed gear half-way down the page and the axes came out.
again, i apologize if my intentions were misunderstood. i shall strive to either be clearer or to avoid the contentious post.
that's exactly what every sniper does. I consider sniping unethical for one basic reason: It is a conscious and deliberate effort to rip a coin from the seller. By everybody witholding bids they are attempting to deprive him of a fair price for his coin. Listen to how they brag of ripping a coin for 30% of it's value. Unlike ebay these are small guys trying to at least break even or make a few bucks on their coin. The same people who excoriate dealers who try to rip off old widows and uninformed sellers indulge in this practice as a standard way of operating. Tell me how it is different. Tell me how it's ethical. Unlike you I am not passing judgement on these snipers. They are only doing what has become an accepted practice on this forum. More than accepted--- applauded!
Huh? If you sell a coin with no safety net, it's YOUR decision to sell it with no reserve or minimum bid - the prospective buyers have their own considerations. Ethical? Are you kidding me? Ripping a dealer who lists the coin in a no reserve auction format? Are you kidding me?
If the coin's worth so much, why wouldn't you insist on a minimum bid? I must have missed the ebay dictum that guarantees me a profit every time I sell a coin on ebay with no reserve. I've been screwed! Come now, let's get real. You sell a coin with no reserve - you take your chances.
The seller makes the auction rules and decides whether or not to enforce them. Bidders only make the decision as to whether or not they want to play at all. Saying that a seller is getting ripped (when he is setting all of the auction's terms & conditions) is a 100% pure hallucination!
It doesn't matter who rips the seller off. When he keeps losing money doing things a certain way he changes his MO. Whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not the fact is many, many sellers of ebay no reserve auctions have moved on to greener pastures.
There's certainly been a disconnect here somewhere. Your assumption is that a no reserve auction format is a sure ripoff for sellers. Your assumption is that every no reserve auction should make a profit, because you also assume that your grading and pricing is correct, and that anyone who disagrees must be insane, or trying to rip you off. Huh?
A "No Reserve" auction is a tool. It usually helps to generate more bidding when the seller can afford to take a risk. But - it's almost guaranteed not to work for a seller when he absolutely, positively has to have a certain price for a specific coin. Making the assumption that you are guaranteed a specific price level and a guaranteed profit from a no reserve auction is just not reality, on ebay or anywhere else that I know of.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I disagree with you jmski. you just don't sell enough on eBay. Competition is fierce on eBay, if your not big enough to move volume where a loss on a single auction or 2 will get made up on the other 20 you do have listed. To put a reserve on an auction is just handing money to eBay. To start a listing at what would be a FMV, means guys like texast won't even look at it. I think your over-simplifying the market forces at work here.
I disagree with you jmski. you just don't sell enough on eBay. Competition is fierce on eBay, if your not big enough to move volume where a loss on a single auction or 2 will get made up on the other 20 you do have listed. To put a reserve on an auction is just handing money to eBay. To start a listing at what would be a FMV, means guys like texast won't even look at it. I think your over-simplifying the market forces at work here.
I am speechless. Dumbfounded. I dunno what to say. I've sold over 200 coins or sets with no reserve. I took the chance because I knew the demand would bail me out (and I've been right). I've only sold one coin with a reserve, and it sold for $4,920 with a single bid. I shudder to think what it would have sold for if I did as you suggested and started it at $0.99 with no reserve.
What market forces are you talking about? There's supply. And there's demand. There's elastic demand, and inelastic demand. Tell me more. I need to understand.
Please note, if you start a coin at fair market value, it oughta sell as long as the guy who needs it in his collection comes along. And, your chances on ebay of that happening are pretty good, with the large numbers of buyers and the search function and all. (If it's not listed at fair market value, nothing is going to help it sell - and if you start it out low, you will have an eye-opening experience about what the current fair market value is.
Sometimes, it's a slow day, so if you are willing to sell a coin at $0.99 when the fair market value is $600.00, um - please tell me what the mental condition is that would compel you to do that?
Hint - There is such a thing as an "inefficient market," and that is the basic reason that you should consider selling a thinly-traded coin with a reserve or minimum starting price.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Let's recap. According to Walkerman, bidders who snipe are unethical and ripping off sellers. Also, according to Walkerman, the only sellers left on eBay are hawking "raw coins that may or may not be problem coins auctioned with no return policy", and "third world crap that's not worth 30% of market".
That pretty much covers about 90% of the forum members here. Now, can he come up with a way to insult the other 10%?
<< <i>Let's recap. According to Walkerman, bidders who snipe are unethical and ripping off sellers. Also, according to Walkerman, the only sellers left on eBay are hawking "raw coins that may or may not be problem coins auctioned with no return policy", and "third world crap that's not worth 30% of market".
That pretty much covers about 90% of the forum members here. Now, can he come up with a way to insult the other 10%?
<< <i>Seated--- 379 total auctions 169 no reserve 17 third world 9 first tier 143 raw out of 169 210 fixed price or high minimum >>
17 items found for: pcgs in Seated Liberty (1839-91) 7 items found for: ngc in Seated Liberty (1839-91) 5 items found for: anacs in Seated Liberty (1839-91)
<< <i>Barber----- 1146 total auctions 270 no reserve 15 third world 6 first tier 249 raw out of 270 876 fixed price or high minimum >>
42 items found for: pcgs in Barber (1892-1915) 13 items found for: ngc in Barber (1892-1915) 7 items found for: anacs in Barber (1892-1915)
<< <i>I have to ask you Dave, if you had a $150.00 Coin up for auction, started it at 99 cents, I put in a bid on ebay of $120.00, what I'm willing to pay and no one else bids on it, I wind up winning the auction for 99 Cents, did I rip you off? No. Maybe if a snipper was willing to pay up to $130.00 and his bid goes in with 4 seconds to go, he win's for $130.00, did he rip you off? No. Do I allow myself to get in a bidding war, not anymore, I learned that lesson on my first few auctions. If it's really rare it will get the price it deserves, do I look for bargains? All day long. I will put in bids on dozens of items using eSnipe, I win some and I lose some, but I do not pay more than I am willing to spend. >>
It doesn't matter who rips the seller off. When he keeps losing money doing things a certain way he changes his MO. Whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not the fact is many, many sellers of ebay no reserve auctions have moved on to greener pastures. Dave W >>
<< <i>I have to ask you Dave, if you had a $150.00 Coin up for auction, started it at 99 cents, I put in a bid on ebay of $120.00, what I'm willing to pay and no one else bids on it, I wind up winning the auction for 99 Cents, did I rip you off? No. Maybe if a snipper was willing to pay up to $130.00 and his bid goes in with 4 seconds to go, he win's for $130.00, did he rip you off? No. Do I allow myself to get in a bidding war, not anymore, I learned that lesson on my first few auctions. If it's really rare it will get the price it deserves, do I look for bargains? All day long. I will put in bids on dozens of items using eSnipe, I win some and I lose some, but I do not pay more than I am willing to spend. >>
It doesn't matter who rips the seller off. When he keeps losing money doing things a certain way he changes his MO. Whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not the fact is many, many sellers of ebay no reserve auctions have moved on to greener pastures. Dave W >>
>>
Sorry for the previous empty post.
For a major auction site, let's say, "Heritage", how much as a seller do you collect, and is it based on the hammer price or the final price?
I have done an experiment on purchasing 10 "raw and 3rd tier" graded coins from eBay the past month. Here are the results.
1 has met my requirements for the grade labelled on the slab 5 have come close to meeting the grade requirements, but not quite ... 1 came in poor packaging, so poor that when i opened the envelope, the coin fell right out of its holder. 3 were so off base it wasn't even funny.
In terms of selling, I don't like selling coins on eBay. However, they do offer me the best possible prices for average to decent quality coins (i.e. not PQ but not dogs either).
<< <i>Seated--- 379 total auctions 169 no reserve 17 third world 9 first tier 143 raw out of 169 210 fixed price or high minimum >>
17 items found for: pcgs in Seated Liberty (1839-91) 7 items found for: ngc in Seated Liberty (1839-91) 5 items found for: anacs in Seated Liberty (1839-91)
<< <i>Barber----- 1146 total auctions 270 no reserve 15 third world 6 first tier 249 raw out of 270 876 fixed price or high minimum >>
42 items found for: pcgs in Barber (1892-1915) 13 items found for: ngc in Barber (1892-1915) 7 items found for: anacs in Barber (1892-1915)
Russ, NCNE >>
Checking my totals again you will see that the certfied coins I listed are for the no reserve auctions only. ie 15 third world + 6 first tier + 249 raw = 270 no reserve auctions. Your figures are probably correct for the number of certified coins in the total auctions which include all the fixed price auctions. There were more than 25 in early halves just between Anaconda's and mine. And the totals were changing even while tallying because of new entries. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
Comments
Free market economics, on the other hand, is chaos/anarchy. Communists and capitalists are authoritarians. Free market economics is, therefore, incompatible with both capitalism and communism.
Heil Homeland Security!
<< <i>How was slavery or Jim Crow laws unethical if they were not only allowed but edorsed by representitives of government?? Do you think they were unethical even though allowed ?? Ebay like the government is a monoply with no competition.
What ever rules they want to make they can for this reason. Same as government.
I agree that under the present laws ebay has every right to make rules and conditions that favor their stockholders and themselves.
That being said maybe a little civil disobedience could persuade them to make changes.
It has happened before.
As to sniping, there are many things that are allowed but not necessarily ethical. Allowed is just another word for permitted. Dave
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>
Using a basic human rights example seems a bit silly... this is not about a basic human right, but about using the services of a website that has rules. Those rules DO NOT infringe on anyones basic human rights, so we don't get to go around flaunting the rules under the guise of fighting the good fight for the betterment of mankind. Pointing out that others have done unethical things under the guise of following the law before is more excuse making. Knowlingly breaking ebays rules is unethical. There is no squirming out from that fact. Knowlingly breaking any rule in a society or group that you chose to take part in and enjoy the benefits of membership in is unethical.
I do not agree that there are any issues with sniping. What is unethical about making a last minute bid? The price a person puts in is what they are willing to pay. A sniper is no different. They make a bid for what they are willing to pay. The fact that they do it last minute does not matter. When is it sniping? Two seconds out, thirty, one minute? If a sniper wins, then they bid MORE than anyone who bid earlier. Again, this is good for the seller. If they don't win, they advance the bid increments, which is good for the seller. If an auction runs 24 hours, there is no ethical issue with placing a bid for what you are willing to pay at any time during that time period. It is free market economics at work: the item will sell for what whomever is willing to pay the most has bid for it. Regardless of when the bids come in. >>
Sorry, but I've read too many stories right here on the forum of sellers suffering great losses and other posts of snipers bragging about their rips. Plus the posts applauding and congratulating the rippers.
I used to list a lot of really nice certified coins before sniping became so popular. I quit it after several times having coins that bid on the grey sheet for $4000-$5000 get no bids to speak of until seconds before they ended.
Then look with disgust and dismay at the final price of 60% or less.
Then I started pulling my auctions with 12+ hours left( whoops unethical I guess to disappoint the sharks).
If one sniper bids $1000 on a $4000 coin and the successful sniper bids $5000 and there's nothing in between, the successful sniper gets the coin for $1100. So now I only sell at fixed price from my ebay store to real collectors who appreciate quality coins.
When the majority of bidders are holding back their bids in hope of holding the final price down to a rip then I place them in the same category as the dealer who trys to rip a coin by making an insulting offer.
The end result and motive is the same. An attempt to snag the coin for far less than it's worth.
If these were true collectors competing for a coin this would be far less of a problem. They would all be trying to snag the coin for their collection. That's how it use to be.
Today ebay is populated mostly by day traders who bid on anything and everything if they can by it at a rip off price and flip it for a profit.
They emulate the hated dealers in every way but are too hypocritical to admit it.
My allusion to human rights cases might have been a poor anology due to the seriousness of the issue compared to the triviality of this one but I was trying to illustrate that not everything that is accepted by a majority of people is necessarily ethical.
A lynch mob comes to mind but maybe that's too gross an analogy also. But they did happen and the community either accepted it or were apathetic. Now there are harsh laws against it'
Anytime people are continually getting ripped off financially there is some unethical behavior going on.
It's just not a big enough issue to get the attention of the power people and therefore there is no law against it.
I do miss selling my coins on a no reserve auction but I couldn't continue to suffer the losses.
There must be many more like me and that's a shame.
If you don't consider that an "issue" then I guess there's no point in trying to convince you.
There is now hardly anything for a collector worth bidding on.
Just raw stuff that may or not be problem coins and the third world garbage that makes money for the seller whether it gets sniped or not since it's usually worth 30% of market or less and there will always be suckers who think they are getting a bargain.
But I guess that's not an "issue" either. Dave W
<< <i>When the majority of bidders are holding back their bids in hope of holding the final price down to a rip then I place them in the same category as the dealer who trys to rip a coin by making an insulting offer. >>
That's silly. In fact, it's one of the silliest things I've ever seen posted here. I suppose that when you buy a car you just pay the sticker price, right? I mean you would never dream of trying to RIP that poor car dealer by negotiating a deal that saves you some money, right?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Sorry, but I've read too many stories right here on the forum of sellers suffering great losses >>
Boo hoo. Welcome to the marketplace.
Russ, NCNE
Anyone on this board who thinks otehrwise, should get to know them and THEN comment.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>If one sniper bids $1000 on a $4000 coin and the successful sniper bids $5000 and there's nothing in between, the successful sniper gets the coin for $1100. >>
I don't understand how someone willing to pay 25% more than the coin's current value is ripping anyone.
Seems to me, the problem here is getting bidders to participate. If you (in general) can't entice people to bid (for whatever reason) or eBay isn't bringing them to the site, whose responsibility is that, anyway?
As to sniping - you made my point. Because of a sniper (#2), in your scenario, you just got $100 more than you would have without the sniper!
If you had 0 bids before that, then there is a problem with your auction, and you should not be blaming snipers for being the only people willing to bid the auction.
My experience is that well described items sell for what they are worth. Winners get a 'rip' a lot less than rip off artists get a huge score by selling overgraded junk for PQ dollars. But, that is neither here nor there. The reallity is, that is how auctions work. You put up an item, and bidders bid or don't, and you get what they pay.
If you don't like the risk, use a reserve, or start the auction at a reasonable price. Some bidders don't like that, I know, but you can't have it both ways: you either take the risk and maximize your exposure to bidders, or you reduce your risk and chase away some.
I will never be convinced that last minute bidders do anything but bid up the final price, which is good for sellers. The fact that they did not bid 'early' is not a fault in the system, it is a bidding strategy, and bidders, like sellers, are entitled to use their strategies. Some bid early, some don't. Just like some sellers use one day auctions, and some use 7 day auctions. To cut the snipers out will only reduce bids and prices realized.
And yes, I know, you don't agree! I can live with it if you can.
<< <i>
<< <i>I consider sniping unethical for one basic reason: It is a conscious and deliberate effort to rip a coin from the seller. >>
Russ, NCNE >>
<< <i>The reallity is, that is how auctions work. You put up an item, and bidders bid or don't, and you get what they pay. >>
That seems pretty straighforward, and I don't see where potential buyers in this scenario have any obligation (moral or otherwise) to bid up an item to a price level the seller considers satisfactory.
<< <i>
<< <i>When the majority of bidders are holding back their bids in hope of holding the final price down to a rip then I place them in the same category as the dealer who trys to rip a coin by making an insulting offer. >>
That's silly. In fact, it's one of the silliest things I've ever seen posted here. I suppose that when you buy a car you just pay the sticker price, right? I mean you would never dream of trying to RIP that poor car dealer by negotiating a deal that saves you some money, right?
Russ, NCNE >>
Let's see. I've read my statement over several times and I read nothing that equates to paying sticker price for a car or not negotiating for a better price for a coin. Trying to make these two themes mesh is more than silly. It is fantasy.
There is a hellava difference in negotiating a better but fair price and totally ripping a coin.In the first case the buyer and seller finally agree to what satisfies both parties.
In the second case the seller is exposing himself to a system designed to keep the price from reaching market value.Sorry Russ that dog just won't hunt. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>Let's see. I've read my statement over several times and I read nothing that equates to paying sticker price for a car or not negotiating for a better price for a coin. Trying to make these two themes mesh is more than silly. It is fantasy. >>
The two mesh perfectly. The only difference is the negotiation method. Some bidders put out their best offer early, some bidders put out their best offer late. The seller opened the negotiation by voluntarily entering the eBay marketplace. The fact that it's electronic rather than face-to-face, (welcome to the 21st century), is irrelevant.
<< <i>In the second case the seller is exposing himself to a system designed to keep the price from reaching market value. >>
Here's a clue that might hurt: In an auction format, the final price is the market value. Now, if you're getting hosed perhaps you should do a little more research before you buy a coin for resale.
Your assertion that sniping is unethical is specious at best, and nothing more than sour grapes at worst.
Russ, NCNE
A person who snipes isn't trying to rip anybody. They are putting in their max bid (hidden to all but them and ebay) and hoping to get it lower.
If I put in a snipe of $500 on a $500 coin, and I get the coin for $100, did I TRY to rip anybody? Nope. I had my max bid.
Someone who is trying to rip someone else is putting in that $0.99 max bid on a $0.99 start for a coin worth much more than that.
Neither he, nor the sniper, is unethical. Each is within the rules.
I buy, and I sell, and I find both valid and have no problems. Just like I have no problem with someone starting a bid at $500 for a $500 coin. If I agree, and I want it, I will bid. If not, I will pass.
For the original intent of the post in question that started all this.....I could easily see where ebay would remove the auction as that does violate ebay rules. The person whose auction it was/is is slightly testy about it and most likely realized it wasn't within the rules.
Too many egos on the boards again right now.....people need to learn to relax
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>What an interesting thread...
As to sniping - you made my point. Because of a sniper (#2), in your scenario, you just got $100 more than you would have without the sniper!
If you had 0 bids before that, then there is a problem with your auction, and you should not be blaming snipers for being the only people willing to bid the auction.
My experience is that well described items sell for what they are worth. Winners get a 'rip' a lot less than rip off artists get a huge score by selling overgraded junk for PQ dollars. But, that is neither here nor there. The reallity is, that is how auctions work. You put up an item, and bidders bid or don't, and you get what they pay.
If you don't like the risk, use a reserve, or start the auction at a reasonable price. Some bidders don't like that, I know, but you can't have it both ways: you either take the risk and maximize your exposure to bidders, or you reduce your risk and chase away some.
I will never be convinced that last minute bidders do anything but bid up the final price, which is good for sellers. The fact that they did not bid 'early' is not a fault in the system, it is a bidding strategy, and bidders, like sellers, are entitled to use their strategies. Some bid early, some don't. Just like some sellers use one day auctions, and some use 7 day auctions. To cut the snipers out will only reduce bids and prices realized.
And yes, I know, you don't agree! I can live with it if you can. >>
Well no I don't agree but as someone who often posts here says" a sign of maturity is entertaining an idea without accepting it". The whole idea of this forum is to debate opposing ideas in a civil manner to the betterment of the hobby.
I do disagree with your statement that that's the way auctions are run. It should read "that's the way ebay auctions are run".
Major auctions are not run this way at all.
There are variations in the way different houses conduct their auctions but all of them encourage people to bid high if they want to stand a chance to win the coin.
In many cases the reserve has been met before the floor auction takes place.
The only times I see bidders witholding serious bids is when the consignor won't reveal his reserve until the last minute.(Perhaps the reverse of sniping?)
On an ebay reserve auction of 10 days for a $4000 item the first thirty bids reach maybe $317.50.
These are bookmark bids so the bidders can find their way back to the auction in a hurry.
The example you cited of the seller getting more at $1100 than he would have with out a sniper is slightly flawed.
Since everyone is sniping the bidder has to guess at the last minute what to bid.
In a regular auction where the high bid is exposed and bidders have time to think that $1100 bid would never stand, there would be too much competition.
If the auction were to remain open until after the last bid was in and there were no more bids for 1 minute the end results would be much more favorable to the seller without forcing anyone to pay more than a coin is worth. This is what happens at a regular auction.
As I stated in a previous post I am not making a judgement against snipers. They are only doing what is deemed acceptable and good strategy by their peers.
And no one need welcome me to the world of auctions.(Thanks Russ)
I have been attending them for longer than many posters have lived.
I buy most of my coins at major auctions and consign a minimum of $500,000 a year in nice coins that just haven't sold. Some of the people who wouldn't enter serious bids on ebay will bid some of these for more than I was asking. Funny.
Since I can do both successfully must make it a fair and logical place to conduct business.
Unfortunately I can only use ebay as an advertising venue and I no longer list any thing for auction.
Fixed price listings are very inexpensive in my ebay store and between sales from there and my website plus sales at coin shows I do ok. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's see. I've read my statement over several times and I read nothing that equates to paying sticker price for a car or not negotiating for a better price for a coin. Trying to make these two themes mesh is more than silly. It is fantasy. >>
The two mesh perfectly. The only difference is the negotiation method. Some bidders put out their best offer early, some bidders put out their best offer late. The seller opened the negotiation by voluntarily entering the eBay marketplace. The fact that it's electronic rather than face-to-face, (welcome to the 21st century), is irrelevant.
<< <i>In the second case the seller is exposing himself to a system designed to keep the price from reaching market value. >>
Here's a clue that might hurt: In an auction format, the final price is the market value. Now, if you're getting hosed perhaps you should do a little more research before you buy a coin for resale.
Your assertion that sniping is unethical is specious at best, and nothing more than sour grapes at worst.
Russ, NCNE >>
Now that really is silly. To make your hypothisis work you would have to show that ebay auctions bring the same price as regular auctions. The price may be the ebay market price but definitely not the true market price.
I HAVE researched this extensively and can assure you they don't.
Do you even entertain the possibility that this can be a reason why the quality high grade coins have all but disappeared from ebay auctions?
Can you even see any credibility in the fact that most savvy sellers who used to sell in ebay auctions no longer do so and instead consign to regular auctions.
If you feel that disparaging my abilities at buying and selling is the way to make your point then feel free. I've always considered personal attacks a sign that one is losing a debate.
But I'm not young enough to know everything. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin
<< <i>I think ebay stinks. The fees, the rules, the games, the whole site is a joke if you ask me (as far as US COINS are concerned, they are the worst venue). It doesn't matter what sort of BUSINESS PLAN they have. WalMart has a great plan too and I feel the same about them. A necessary evil in the scope of commerce just like gas for my truck ! >>
That's not a subjective analysis. That's an objective statement.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>There are variations in the way different houses conduct their auctions but all of them encourage people to bid high if they want to stand a chance to win the coin. >>
I found this advice on eBay under the help section for bidding:
"Placing a high bid in the closing seconds of an auction-style listing is called “sniping” within the eBay Community. Sniping is part of the eBay experience, and all bids placed before a listing ends are valid - even if they're placed one second before the listing ends.
To help avoid disappointment, ensure that the maximum bid you enter on the item page is the highest price that you're willing to pay."
<< <i>Oh, and:
<< <i>Sorry, but I've read too many stories right here on the forum of sellers suffering great losses >>
Boo hoo. Welcome to the marketplace.
Russ, NCNE >>
Additionally, whoever whines about this is overlooking the reasons other than "ebay" for such losses such as poor photos, poor descriptions, overcharging for shipping, and quality not up to snuff with what the seller thinks it is.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think ebay stinks. The fees, the rules, the games, the whole site is a joke if you ask me (as far as US COINS are concerned, they are the worst venue). It doesn't matter what sort of BUSINESS PLAN they have. WalMart has a great plan too and I feel the same about them. A necessary evil in the scope of commerce just like gas for my truck ! >>
That's not a subjective analysis. That's an objective statement. >>
That's your opinion of my opinion
<< <i>
<< <i>Oh, and:
<< <i>Sorry, but I've read too many stories right here on the forum of sellers suffering great losses >>
Boo hoo. Welcome to the marketplace.
Russ, NCNE >>
Additionally, whoever whines about this is overlooking the reasons other than "ebay" for such losses such as poor photos, poor descriptions, overcharging for shipping, and quality not up to snuff with what the seller thinks it is. >>
I certainly can't argue that all of the above are contributing factors to the downward trend of ebay auctions.
It is not now nor ever was my intention to appear as a whiner in this matter.
I have already stated that I am no longer involved in ebay auctions.
Perhaps I picked the wrong thread to express my opinions on sniping.
It no longer affects me one way or the other.
What does concern me (and should concern everyone) is the vanishing act for quality certified coins on ebay auctions.
Take a look. There's nothing out there but raw coins that may have problems and third world crap.
The sellers are not going to expose themselves to these losses and are finding other venues to sell their coins.
These are facts.
Whether my opinions or yours are correct is not the issue.
The fact is ebay is going downhill.
Is my diagnosis so unreasonable to be scoffed at as "not possible".
Sellers of quality coins have abandoned ebay no reserve auctions as a viable selling venue.
I will repeat once more: none of this affects me directly as I along with many others no longer participate.
Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>Do you even entertain the possibility that this can be a reason why the quality high grade coins have all but disappeared from ebay auctions? >>
I would entertain that possibility if your assertion that quality coins have "all but disappeared" from eBay were actually true. It isn't. There's still plenty of quality material being sold. Apparently, though, some coin dealers simply do not understand the eBay marketplace and thus like to grouse about all those nasty, mean bidders trying to rip them off.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>As I stated in a previous post I am not making a judgement against snipers. >>
You claim that you're not making a judgement against snipers, yet you have repeatedly stated that the practice is unethical, (which, of course, it isn't). That certainly is a judgement by any definition.
<< <i>And no one need welcome me to the world of auctions.(Thanks Russ) >>
I didn't welcome you to auctions, I welcomed you to the 21st century.
Russ, NCNE
1. Anyone that violates eBay's rules against fee avoidance and then tries to justify it or defend the infractor is an idiot at best and dishonest at worst (or perhaps if both even worse yet). Those that steal from eBay cost everyone else that uses eBay money in the form of the commensurately higher fees eBay charges to make up for the lowlifes that evade their fair share of the fees.
2. Anyone that thinks sniping is unethical is an idiot at best or the worst kind of close minded seller or uninforned buyer at worst.
3. Flame away.
that was pretty succinct lol
hit the nail on the head i'd wager.
can you feel the heat of the flames already?
<< <i>In the second case the seller is exposing himself to a system designed to keep the price from reaching market value.Sorry Russ that dog just won't hunt. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>
Why do your arguments, over and over again, include attempts to belittle the other person who disagrees with you?
What an odd conspiracy theory. How many here would do business over eBay if you didn't think you would get market value. Market value is what the public is willing to pay at the time of the sale.
So, using RBinTex's hypothesis, if you drive 66mph (or higher!) on the freeway (where the limit is 65) and then slow back down to 65, you are also low-lifes because you drive (no pun intended) the cost of tickets for speeders that are caught higher, right?
Man, it's fun playing handball against the curb!
4. Surely one must also be an idiot (or unschooled in economics) to argue that a coin that sells in an eBay auction DOES NOT sell at "market value" (whatever it is at the time given numerous - probably way too many to mention - variables).
Market value (at any given point in time - as many markets are both imperfect AND fluid) is the price at which a willing buyer and a willing seller conduct a transaction at.
The ability (or lack therof) to replicate any particular (auction in this case) result in no way diminishes the fact that a given transaction reflected the TRUE market value of a particular item at a given point in time - again, given MANY variables:
e.g. - auction length, start/end time, the way the title (& if applicable, the subtitle) was worded, the way the listing was layed out and worded, the unique combination of upgrades the listing had, the sellers reputation &/or track record, the presence/absence/quality of images, saturation level of a particular item with respect to how many others have been sold in a particular time period, whether the dow dove 300 that particular day, whatever etc., etc., etc....
5. There's still plenty of high quality coins on eBay but more and more sellers opt for the increased lack of transparency, subtle biases, and increased options for manipulation that other auction venues such as Teletrade, Heritage, etc. offer.
ajia - you're speeder analogy (if I understand it correctly) is falacious since the action of the "law-abider" drove up the costs for the "law-breakers".
The analogy with respect to eBay is the exact opposite. The cheaters - i.e. "fee avoiders" (just like tax evaders) drive up the costs for all the honest folk.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Auctions start and finish at ADVERTISED TIMES. Don't like it??? Sell on Yahoo
Bruce
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>walkerman: If you so detest "snipers", then you are certainly free to post your coins for auction elsewhere. Going by your "logic" if an auction is supposed to run until 11:45pm on a certain day, are all of the bidders required to submit their bids by 11:30pm???
Auctions start and finish at ADVERTISED TIMES. Don't like it??? Sell on Yahoo
Bruce >>
Bruce: Apparently you and a lot of others are reading what you want to read in my posts.
I can't say it any plainer and I don't want to shout in caps.
So listen up one more time. I don't do ebay auctions any more. Or yahoo. or any other similar venues.
I don't detest snipers. They are only doing what everyone else is doing.
I am only offering my opinion as to why many other dealers of high end certified coins have also quit selling in ebay no reserve auctions.
Check it out. These dealers like my self only list at fixed price.
What's left are: raw coins that may or may not be problem coins auctioned with no return policy.
third world crap that's not worth 30% of market.
people dumping generic gold. I never see better date gold anymore with no reserve.
Ebay used to be loaded with no reserve auctions. I suggest the sellers have done like me and now consign their coins to regular auctions where my research shows they are getting a better return.
If ebay no reserve auctions were more profitable they would still be selling there.
There's no point in anyone suggesting if I don't like it to leave.
I have already left.
I am doing quite well with my fixed price listings, my ebay store, my website, and coin shows.
I still buy coins on ebay from the fixed price listings but I find less and less that interests me in the no reserve auctions.
I'm still of the opinion that sniping has had a negative effect on prices realized and ebay is now becoming more like a flea market. A dumping place for unwanted goods.
This opinion has apparently angered many on this forum but there's no need to shoot the messenger.
And I'm not angry at anyone. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>I have to ask you Dave, if you had a $150.00 Coin up for auction, started it at 99 cents, I put in a bid on ebay of $120.00, what I'm willing to pay and no one else bids on it, I wind up winning the auction for 99 Cents, did I rip you off? No. Maybe if a snipper was willing to pay up to $130.00 and his bid goes in with 4 seconds to go, he win's for $130.00, did he rip you off? No. Do I allow myself to get in a bidding war, not anymore, I learned that lesson on my first few auctions. If it's really rare it will get the price it deserves, do I look for bargains? All day long. I will put in bids on dozens of items using eSnipe, I win some and I lose some, but I do not pay more than I am willing to spend. >>
It doesn't matter who rips the seller off. When he keeps losing money doing things a certain way he changes his MO. Whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not the fact is many, many sellers of ebay no reserve auctions have moved on to greener pastures. Dave W
i would, however, ask anyone who cares to look at this thread to understand that my intention was just a follow-up to that week old question asking if this sort of practice was allowable under eBay's rules. also, if you look back to page one, things were begun rather lightheartedly with no names and a
again, i apologize if my intentions were misunderstood. i shall strive to either be clearer or to avoid the contentious post.
By everybody witholding bids they are attempting to deprive him of a fair price for his coin. Listen to how they brag of ripping a coin for 30% of it's value.
Unlike ebay these are small guys trying to at least break even or make a few bucks on their coin.
The same people who excoriate dealers who try to rip off old widows and uninformed sellers indulge in this practice as a standard way of operating.
Tell me how it is different. Tell me how it's ethical.
Unlike you I am not passing judgement on these snipers. They are only doing what has become an accepted practice on this forum. More than accepted--- applauded!
Huh? If you sell a coin with no safety net, it's YOUR decision to sell it with no reserve or minimum bid - the prospective buyers have their own considerations. Ethical? Are you kidding me? Ripping a dealer who lists the coin in a no reserve auction format? Are you kidding me?
If the coin's worth so much, why wouldn't you insist on a minimum bid? I must have missed the ebay dictum that guarantees me a profit every time I sell a coin on ebay with no reserve. I've been screwed! Come now, let's get real. You sell a coin with no reserve - you take your chances.
The seller makes the auction rules and decides whether or not to enforce them. Bidders only make the decision as to whether or not they want to play at all. Saying that a seller is getting ripped (when he is setting all of the auction's terms & conditions) is a 100% pure hallucination!
It doesn't matter who rips the seller off. When he keeps losing money doing things a certain way he changes his MO. Whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not the fact is many, many sellers of ebay no reserve auctions have moved on to greener pastures.
There's certainly been a disconnect here somewhere. Your assumption is that a no reserve auction format is a sure ripoff for sellers. Your assumption is that every no reserve auction should make a profit, because you also assume that your grading and pricing is correct, and that anyone who disagrees must be insane, or trying to rip you off. Huh?
A "No Reserve" auction is a tool. It usually helps to generate more bidding when the seller can afford to take a risk. But - it's almost guaranteed not to work for a seller when he absolutely, positively has to have a certain price for a specific coin. Making the assumption that you are guaranteed a specific price level and a guaranteed profit from a no reserve auction is just not reality, on ebay or anywhere else that I know of.
I knew it would happen.
I do suspect another reply that goes on for at least 125 lines of text is on the way.
I am speechless. Dumbfounded. I dunno what to say. I've sold over 200 coins or sets with no reserve. I took the chance because I knew the demand would bail me out (and I've been right). I've only sold one coin with a reserve, and it sold for $4,920 with a single bid. I shudder to think what it would have sold for if I did as you suggested and started it at $0.99 with no reserve.
What market forces are you talking about? There's supply. And there's demand. There's elastic demand, and inelastic demand. Tell me more. I need to understand.
Please note, if you start a coin at fair market value, it oughta sell as long as the guy who needs it in his collection comes along. And, your chances on ebay of that happening are pretty good, with the large numbers of buyers and the search function and all. (If it's not listed at fair market value, nothing is going to help it sell - and if you start it out low, you will have an eye-opening experience about what the current fair market value is.
Sometimes, it's a slow day, so if you are willing to sell a coin at $0.99 when the fair market value is $600.00, um - please tell me what the mental condition is that would compel you to do that?
Hint - There is such a thing as an "inefficient market," and that is the basic reason that you should consider selling a thinly-traded coin with a reserve or minimum starting price.
I knew it would happen.
That pretty much covers about 90% of the forum members here. Now, can he come up with a way to insult the other 10%?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Let's recap. According to Walkerman, bidders who snipe are unethical and ripping off sellers. Also, according to Walkerman, the only sellers left on eBay are hawking "raw coins that may or may not be problem coins auctioned with no return policy", and "third world crap that's not worth 30% of market".
That pretty much covers about 90% of the forum members here. Now, can he come up with a way to insult the other 10%?
Russ, NCNE >>
I'm thinking-- I'm thinking
Approx 170,000 coins world wide are up for auction.
Graded PCGS coins....8145
NGC...............8174
ICG................ 648
ANACS...........1965
<< <i>Some interesting eBay stats in the coin & currency department.
Approx 170,000 coins world wide are up for auction.
Graded PCGS coins....8145
NGC...............8174
ICG................ 648
ANACS...........1965 >>
A breakdown of half dollars Early through Barber currently on ebay.
Early--- 670 total auctions
240 no reserve
15 third world
8 first tier (PCGS,NGC,ANACS)
217 raw out of 240
430 fixed price or high minimum
Seated--- 379 total auctions
169 no reserve
17 third world
9 first tier
143 raw out of 169
210 fixed price or high minimum
Barber----- 1146 total auctions
270 no reserve
15 third world
6 first tier
249 raw out of 270
876 fixed price or high minimum
I'm a powerscrewer
I don't know how much longer, though
Only the eBay gods know for sure
<< <i>Seated--- 379 total auctions
169 no reserve
17 third world
9 first tier
143 raw out of 169
210 fixed price or high minimum >>
17 items found for: pcgs in Seated Liberty (1839-91)
7 items found for: ngc in Seated Liberty (1839-91)
5 items found for: anacs in Seated Liberty (1839-91)
<< <i>Barber----- 1146 total auctions
270 no reserve
15 third world
6 first tier
249 raw out of 270
876 fixed price or high minimum >>
42 items found for: pcgs in Barber (1892-1915)
13 items found for: ngc in Barber (1892-1915)
7 items found for: anacs in Barber (1892-1915)
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>I have to ask you Dave, if you had a $150.00 Coin up for auction, started it at 99 cents, I put in a bid on ebay of $120.00, what I'm willing to pay and no one else bids on it, I wind up winning the auction for 99 Cents, did I rip you off? No. Maybe if a snipper was willing to pay up to $130.00 and his bid goes in with 4 seconds to go, he win's for $130.00, did he rip you off? No. Do I allow myself to get in a bidding war, not anymore, I learned that lesson on my first few auctions. If it's really rare it will get the price it deserves, do I look for bargains? All day long. I will put in bids on dozens of items using eSnipe, I win some and I lose some, but I do not pay more than I am willing to spend. >>
It doesn't matter who rips the seller off. When he keeps losing money doing things a certain way he changes his MO. Whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not the fact is many, many sellers of ebay no reserve auctions have moved on to greener pastures. Dave W >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have to ask you Dave, if you had a $150.00 Coin up for auction, started it at 99 cents, I put in a bid on ebay of $120.00, what I'm willing to pay and no one else bids on it, I wind up winning the auction for 99 Cents, did I rip you off? No. Maybe if a snipper was willing to pay up to $130.00 and his bid goes in with 4 seconds to go, he win's for $130.00, did he rip you off? No. Do I allow myself to get in a bidding war, not anymore, I learned that lesson on my first few auctions. If it's really rare it will get the price it deserves, do I look for bargains? All day long. I will put in bids on dozens of items using eSnipe, I win some and I lose some, but I do not pay more than I am willing to spend. >>
It doesn't matter who rips the seller off. When he keeps losing money doing things a certain way he changes his MO. Whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not the fact is many, many sellers of ebay no reserve auctions have moved on to greener pastures. Dave W >>
>>
Sorry for the previous empty post.
For a major auction site, let's say, "Heritage", how much as a seller do you collect, and is it based on the hammer price or the final price?
I have done an experiment on purchasing 10 "raw and 3rd tier" graded coins from eBay the past month. Here are the results.
1 has met my requirements for the grade labelled on the slab
5 have come close to meeting the grade requirements, but not quite ...
1 came in poor packaging, so poor that when i opened the envelope, the coin fell right out of its holder.
3 were so off base it wasn't even funny.
In terms of selling, I don't like selling coins on eBay. However, they do offer me the best possible prices for average to decent quality coins (i.e. not PQ but not dogs either).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>This thread has gotten kinda funny
99
<< <i>
<< <i>Seated--- 379 total auctions
169 no reserve
17 third world
9 first tier
143 raw out of 169
210 fixed price or high minimum >>
17 items found for: pcgs in Seated Liberty (1839-91)
7 items found for: ngc in Seated Liberty (1839-91)
5 items found for: anacs in Seated Liberty (1839-91)
<< <i>Barber----- 1146 total auctions
270 no reserve
15 third world
6 first tier
249 raw out of 270
876 fixed price or high minimum >>
42 items found for: pcgs in Barber (1892-1915)
13 items found for: ngc in Barber (1892-1915)
7 items found for: anacs in Barber (1892-1915)
Russ, NCNE >>
Checking my totals again you will see that the certfied coins I listed are for the no reserve auctions only.
ie 15 third world + 6 first tier + 249 raw = 270 no reserve auctions.
Your figures are probably correct for the number of certified coins in the total auctions which include all the fixed price auctions.
There were more than 25 in early halves just between Anaconda's and mine. And the totals were changing even while tallying because of new entries. Dave W
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com