Found in a Roll - Kennedy Toners (All 20 Pics Added)

jmski52 · July 27, 2007 12:06PM

grabba · July 27, 2007 12:08PM

Those are very nice. Nice finds!

coinman420 · July 27, 2007 12:11PM

nice toning, i take it some were middle of the roll and not just the end coins?

jmski52 · July 27, 2007 12:14PM

This was a roll with flapped ends, so it must have had good air circulation. All but one are nice.

AnkurJ · July 27, 2007 12:15PM

Very nice!

coinman420 · July 27, 2007 12:18PM

nice score then, some rolls seem to tone just on the ends and most of the roll stays unchanged.

jmski52 · July 27, 2007 12:20PM

I buy unc silver in rolls and look for toners in the process. None of the other Kennedy rolls I've bought even have end coins like these. If I had a decent camera, I'd take a group pic.

SkyMan · July 27, 2007 1:54PM

Fun Kennedys!

jmski52 · July 27, 2007 10:54PM

Under different lighting:

Edited to remove yucky photos - Please see pics taken next day in natural lighting.

notlogical · July 27, 2007 11:01PM

TwoSides2aCoin · July 27, 2007 11:02PM

Gee, nice discovery.

dtkk49a · July 27, 2007 11:18PM

Wow. Nice toner score !

DHeath · July 27, 2007 11:24PM

A little moisture, a little sulfur laden roll paper, some raw silver..........nice find.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 27, 2007 11:33PM

<< A little moisture, a little sulfur laden roll paper, some raw silver..........nice find.

>>

and a little warm, too... don't forget the temperature
Some say leave it in the window sill in the sunlight, but essentially it's a combination of thermal and chemical reaction over time... Isn't it ?

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 1:12AM

Some say leave it in the window sill in the sunlight, but essentially it's a combination of thermal and chemical reaction over time... Isn't it ?

That would imply AT.

Of course, in posting here I am inviting all comments.

ccmorgan · July 28, 2007 1:19AM

Did you find those in a roll from the bank? Nice!!!

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 1:26AM

The Kennedys were on Ebay auction 110147005329, which I just received. For those of you who like raw Indian gold, the same guy has one on ebay right now. He's not a coin guy, so I think the gold might well be the real thing also.

Here's what the Kennedys came in:

ccmorgan · July 28, 2007 1:30AM

<< The Kennedys were on Ebay auction 110147005329, which I just received. For those of you who like raw Indian gold, the same guy has one on ebay right now. He's not a coin guy, so I think the gold might well be the real thing also.

Here's what the Kennedys came in:

>>

WOW!! Looks like an origional wrapper too. Congrats!!

Russ · July 28, 2007 2:23AM

I guess I'll be the rain on the parade. I think the coins are AT'd. Probably an experiment since these are plentiful and cheap.

Russ, NCNE

ccmorgan · July 28, 2007 2:25AM

<< I guess I'll be the rain on the parade. I think the coins are AT'd. Probably an experiment since these are plentiful and cheap.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ, lets not go there.

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 3:10AM

Russ, I'd appreciate knowing why you think these are AT. I will be posting better pics and seeking more opinions.

Casey · July 28, 2007 3:14AM

Cool find!

clw54 · July 28, 2007 3:17AM

<< The Kennedys were on Ebay auction 110147005329, which I just received. For those of you who like raw Indian gold, the same guy has one on ebay right now. He's not a coin guy, so I think the gold might well be the real thing also. >>

How can not being a coin guy make authenticity more likely?

Russ · July 28, 2007 3:26AM

<< Russ, I'd appreciate knowing why you think these are AT. >>

They look like an attempt to duplicate album target toning using a chemical application such as liver of sulphur. Are the reverses white? If so, then I have no doubt they're AT'd.

Russ, NCNE

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 5:38AM

I have 15 imaged and will be posting them shortly. My dsl crapped out, so it will be a few minutes.

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 6:19AM

Coins 1 through 10:

Russ · July 28, 2007 6:25AM

Since the reverses are also toned, it's possible the color wasn't imparted deliberately. However, I'm still suspicious and I also think it unlikely that the coins would pass muster at a reputable grading service. The odds are very long that every coin in a roll would tone up so much alike. I have similar examples that I picked up from a known coin doctor.

Russ, NCNE

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 6:27AM

What are some good diagnostics? They look good to me. Is PCGS any good at authenticating toners for original tone?

Does anyone care about seeing coins 11 through 20? Number 20 is dark toned on the reverse. I won't bother y'all if you think it's a waste of time.

Russ · July 28, 2007 6:36AM

<< What are some good diagnostics? >>

The unusual hue as well as the width of the green and blue bands frequently indicates accelerated and/or artificial toning.

Russ, NCNE

clarkbar04 · July 28, 2007 7:20AM

I have a mint set kennedy toner that resembles those.

Russ · July 28, 2007 7:23AM

<< I have a mint set kennedy toner that resembles those. >>

I assume you mean aftermarket holder toned Kennedy. The mint issued these in celo packs that didn't impart much in the way of color.

Russ, NCNE

TwoSides2aCoin · July 28, 2007 7:28AM

This looks like a roll that sat in a very humid and warm environment, to me. Even if it's NATURAL in it's occurrence , I am with Russ in that they look suspect. I would guess a provenance to Katrina

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 7:33AM

They have a provenance in Missouri. Can PCGS help me make a definitive determination, or is it guesswork?

TwoSides2aCoin · July 28, 2007 7:37AM

PCGS will make a determination. Russ and me can both be wrong. Without them in hand, no determination is rock solid

.

You know me, I don't care for toners, but if they meet the test, you've got some money makers, for sure. People are nutty about toners.

Joe

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 7:51AM

I will send a few in to PCGS for a determination on the toning. Here is coin #20 with the dark toned reverse:

ricko · July 28, 2007 8:02AM

I am very suspicious of those coins... I have never seen that extent of toning on the 'interior' coins of a roll... yes.. some around the edge, but not surface toning deep in the roll. My input - AT... let us know... Cheers, RickO

SamByrd · July 28, 2007 11:37AM

NT and they look very cool imo

ChuckC · July 28, 2007 12:28PM

Looks similar to tonedcointrader's Kennedy that he's had for sale.

Blackhawk · July 28, 2007 1:22PM

I think that they look OK. If you would have posted just one, folks would be ooohing and aaahing...since there's a whole bunch, it naturally draws suspicion to the method of toning. There's coins that look a hell of a lot more AT than those in reputable TPG holders that people fight over in auction on a regular basis - one Wisconsin commemorative half always comes to mind.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 28, 2007 1:31PM

Do toners help the numerical grade or just the value on re-sell ? What do you suppose your highest graded coin is in the bunch ? I like coin number 5... it looks to have the best shield, talons and strike detail with the fewest distractions and best obverse color.

That's just me, though.

Joe

leothelyon · July 28, 2007 3:16PM

I like them! It's interesting how most of the coins have similar cresent toning on both sides. As if one side of the roll got wet would explain how the cresent toning shifts around for each. You could possibly reassemble which coins were next to each other in the roll by realigning the toning. Nice find!

Leo

stman · July 28, 2007 3:32PM

They certainly look consistent.

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 4:05PM

I just received the roll last week while I was out of town. I opened it only 24 hours ago. I've not made any grade estimates - I only had time today to take some pics. I'll pull them out and grade them tomorrow.

Like some have commented, I have never seen a whole roll with toning throughout like this roll of coins, but then again, this was not a tightly-wrapped shotgun roll. The coins all have the same general color patterns and appearances, for what it's worth. I like these coins, and I am not in a hurry to market them - I just want some respected opinions, because I think that they are legit.

If PCGS doesn't really authenticate original toning as such, I would ask who would be the toning expert of choice here on this board?

Here are the 2nd 10 coins:

Hmmmm.......looks like the lighting on 16 through 20 wasn't too good - I might have to re-take those pics. Edited to add: Done! Coins 16 through 19 have new pics!

A couple close-ups of coin #16:

jmski52 · July 28, 2007 4:08PM

I like them! It's interesting how most of the coins have similar cresent toning on both sides. As if one side of the roll got wet would explain how the cresent toning shifts around for each. You could possibly reassemble which coins were next to each other in the roll by realigning the toning. Nice find!

I think that the seller had already mixed them up a little, and when I took them out of the roll, I wasn't expecting this, so I didn't keep them in order. I only know which ones were #1 and #20.

Thanks for your comments.

PawPaul · July 29, 2007 2:00AM

At first look, my initial felling was these were A.T , but that is not to say they may be a put together roll of un-doctored coins . The toning patterns are however suspect and I can see them as being some one's experiments . In today's environment they certainly could get B.Bagged as they appear to be questionable. Unless the one's you send for grading are in your mind shot 66's or better , I would not submit them .

Let me stress to you strongly that Russ's opinion on A.T. coins is basically law - I doubt if there are a handful of people on earth that have his expertise in spotting a questionably toned coin ...... he would be one of THE foremost authority's in this area at ANY grading service . I would find it hard to disagree with his assessment of these coins .

And hey -that's got to be the coolest Roosevelt dime toned ragged struck on's I ever seen ..... is it certified ?

edit : ooop's ; your avitar is the end piece in a paper rapped roll .......I thought it was a struck toned fragment

clarkbar04 · July 29, 2007 2:53AM

<< 

<< I have a mint set kennedy toner that resembles those. >>

I assume you mean aftermarket holder toned Kennedy. The mint issued these in celo packs that didn't impart much in the way of color.

Russ, NCNE >>

Correct, I guess I have never seen a real 1964 mint set. Certainly cellophane wouldn't impart toning like what I have. It is in a little plastic flip case with a blue cardboard insert.

Russ · July 29, 2007 3:22AM

One thing is for certain. The coins did not tone in the roll you received them in. For this degree of toning to happen in a roll, the paper would be at least severely stained and most likely nearly destroyed.

Russ, NCNE

jmski52 · July 29, 2007 4:15AM

One thing is for certain. The coins did not tone in the roll you received them in. For this degree of toning to happen in a roll, the paper would be at least severely stained and most likely nearly destroyed.

Russ, some of my nicest Roosie toners still reside in wrappers from the same company, and I know for a fact that they are NT:

Granted, interior roll toning like this is not something I've ever seen before, either. These wrappers of these Roosie toners don't show the type of deterioration that you mention. I would think that if the paper had come into contact with water and become stained, the coins would have corroded, rather than toned.

I will send the half dollar wrapper for your examination, too. Thanks, jmski

jmski52 · July 29, 2007 6:20AM

He's not a coin guy, so I think the gold might well be the real thing also.

How can not being a coin guy make authenticity more likely?

I guess I am wondering why a non-coin guy would do anything at all to a roll of coins and then sell them on ebay. And if these were doctored, why would a coin doc sell them at melt on ebay instead of selling them as monsters for a premium when they look so good? It doesn't make much sense. Besides all that, they look good to me even under 10X.

They look like an attempt to duplicate album target toning using a chemical application such as liver of sulphur. Are the reverses white? If so, then I have no doubt they're AT'd.

How would one identify a coin which has been in contact with liver of sulphur, and what is liver of sulphur? When Russ asked if the reverses were white, I thought for sure that the issue was settled, because the reverses are rainbow.

The obverses and reverses are rainbow toned, and the edges are splotchy toned - it does not appear that chemicals have been in contact with this substrate. The stuff I've seen in different posts on this forum that have been identified as AT don't look like these, IMHO. Please look at the more recent photos that I did yesterday and this morning - the early ones were done at night and the lighting made them look too dingy. The recent shots are with a combination of natural and incandescent lighting and are more true to the colors.

The face of one end coin is splotchy brown toned, and the reverse side of the other end coin is almost solid dark metallic toned. Everything in between looks rainbow. Sorry if I keep obsessing about this roll, but I really want to find out what I've got here.

LucyBop · July 30, 2007 10:12AM

It is rather suspect that so many toners would be found in a single roll, which in the many rolls I have searched, I've yet to find them in such quantity.
With that said, one can't rule it out, I believe its possible but yet would be a very rare find, and even harder to imagine with a purchase off of Ebay..

I would have to examine these coins in person, but from what I see in the images, I believe they would slab and be considered NT.
As I have many hairyheads that have indeed toned in this manner. If this toning was somehow 'created' it appears to be done rather well.

Again I base what I say on the images given.

In my experience, in a original roll, the end coins are typically toned as they are exposed to the ambient atmosphere, the coins inside tend to have the reeded edges dark, slight toning if any in the rims, typically brilliant white.

For a oxide to grow (which produces various toning stages/colors depending on thickness) you typically need 02 + heat which would cause a reaction with the highly reactive surface of a silver coin.
Very tough to get enough 02 (oxygen) into the roll in a high enough concentration to produce some of the toned coins imaged. Which again in simple terms is why the endroll coins almost always tone, as they are exposed to a abundance of 02, amongst what ever other elements found in the enviroment in which they were stored in.

This is why many here find it suspect and not correct to encounter toners such as these, from a single roll.

Its not impossible for this to occur, but very very unlikely, that this did happen in the roll.

Mesquite · July 30, 2007 11:19PM

Wow. Wish I had seen the pics before reading everyone's comments - my opinion is now tainted. I have seen that toning on two different 1964 Kennedy's and have no doubt that, for my two examples, the toning was NT. My two were not found in a roll but rather in a small bucket of loose silver that had a crumpled-up paper towel lining the bottom of the bucket. Interestingly, only the Kennedy's toned. The Peace and Morgan dollars found in the bucket, parts of which were in contact with the paper, were not toned - granted they were more heavily circulated than were the Kennedy's.

For your examples I have no trouble in calling the toning NT (did you notice my hedging here?). The only thing that gives me (and most everyone else) pause is that you pulled these out of a single roll (loosely packed?) where you might expect there to be some white or mostly white interrior coins if in fact those 20 have spent the last 43 years together in that roll. My guess is that if you sent them in to PCGS one at a time you might get most, if not all, to grade. The number of BBs for questionable toning might well increase dramatically if a single grader saw all twenty sequentially (as we did here).

Not being a roll searcher myself - have you ever opened up a loosely packed roll of Roosies with toned end-coins and seen the coins toned pretty consistantly thoughout the roll?

This is a great thread to illustrate the difficulty we sometimes have in reaching a conclusion concerning NT verses AT. For raw coins the associated evidence plays a role in drawing that conclusion.

I'll be interested in reading how your coins are judged by the graders. Keep us informed.

Whatever the outcome - ya' done good with that purchase - that is a nice set of Kennedy toners. I wouldn't be too concerned with the NT/AT question regarding this set of Kennedy's.

Found in a Roll - Kennedy Toners (All 20 Pics Added)

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