Wow, if someone would of told me that less than 24 hours after praising what I think is a wonderful coin, that the thread would have 200+ replies I would of said they're
Next time I'll try to pick a coin that is actually worthy of some debate and discussion.
I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO.
<< <i>I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
If true, the "reputable dealers" are buying into the market grading concept. Wonder why? Could it be to get MS money for AU coins?
There's no "coin toss" if you go by the book: the primary difference between a weak strike MS coin and a strong AU coin with some rub on the high points is the absence or presence of luster breaks on the high points lacking detail. An image is useless for that.
<< <i> I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
Tell us, are you just an Anaconda shill, or are you also the consignor of this coin?
<< <i>Wow, if someone would of told me that less than 24 hours after praising what I think is a wonderful coin, that the thread would have 200+ replies I would of said they're
Next time I'll try to pick a coin that is actually worthy of some debate and discussion.
I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
<< <i>What are the odds a TPG would intentionally over grade a coin such as this one in a grand money making scheme between all parties involved? >>
Integrity and future business. Grading is subjective regardless of how much experience you have. Grading is also done by humans and humans make mistakes.
Just review some of the "fooled me" replies earlier in this thread.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i> I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
Tell us, are you just an Anaconda shill, or are you also the consignor of this coin? >>
Neither, although I sure wish I was the latter. That coin would be the highlight of my collection, as I'm sure it would most likely be for 95% of all of us here on the boards.
This is a very interesting thread. While I don't have a dog in this fight (sorry Mr. Vick sensitive subject) and likely will never find myself considering the purchase of a 90k coin; the likelihood of this type of stuff going on at a level where I do collect is almost certain.
In the last year or so of posting at this site, I have seen countless threads where individuals openly bragged about cracking out coins in the hopes of landing a better grade. If the coin in the OP hadn't been obviously "conserved" then I'd say let he without a "crack out" throw the first slab.
I'd say if Anaconda was not aware of the history of the coin then they have done nothing wrong. If they were aware of its history then IMO as a collector I would be disappointed in the fact that the information was not revealed as a part of the sale. It's not that hard; when approached by the consignor the reply could have been; yes we'd love to consign this piece however we think that it is only fair to reveal the coins history. If the consignor didn't like it they could shop it elsewhere. To just turn a blind eye to something like this and put all of the responsibility on the side of the prospective purchaser is not what I think will land any dealer with a base of long term high end collectors.
without the owner's knowledge, i can't say; they do however dip coins that have turned in the holder or are no longer attractive. i assume they do this so they don't have to pay the coin's owner the value of the coin.
I will say however, the moderator that started the thread you posted a highly respected collector of world gold coins, one of the larger collectors out there in both the size of the collection and the breadth of knowledge.
<< <i>You really should stop trying to pretend you know what you're talking about.
Russ, NCNE >>
As should you ... the ability to search through the Heritage archives does not a numismatist make. And, your tone and the way that you treat people are just a few of the reasons why you will never be taken seriously in this industry no matter how much you continue to pretend that you are. I am new to this, I make mistakes, I continue to learn from them, and make better purchasing decisions everyday. However, you, Russ ... well, you will always be Russ. Need I say more???
<< <i>You really should stop trying to pretend you know what you're talking about.
Russ, NCNE >>
As should you ... the ability to search through the Heritage archives does not a numismatist make. And, your tone and the way that you treat people are just a few of the reasons why you will never be taken seriously in this industry no matter how much you continue to pretend that you are. I am new to this, I make mistakes, I continue to learn from them, and make better purchasing decisions everyday. However, you, Russ ... well, you will always be Russ. Need I say more???
>>
Fletcher, read page one of this thread. If Russ hadn't posted what he did, you'd never have known what you know now. Besides, why do you have to try to make every thread about you? Jeez.... quit looking in the mirror so much.
<< <i>Fletcher, read page one of this thread. If Russ hadn't posted what he did, you'd never have known what you know now. Besides, why do you have to try to make every thread about you? Jeez.... quit looking in the mirror so much. >>
I did not say that Russ was wrong ... I simply commented on how he continues to belittle people here. And, I was not trying to make this thread about me ... unlike Russ and his merry men have done once again on the OFR in the thread entitled: "Russ burns dizzy and fletcher"
Oh...... my mistake...... sounded like you were "belittling" him.
<< <i>Dizzy posts a drool thread over a "MS61" flowing hair dollar. Fletcher joins in the drooling. Russ turns up the coin as a PCGS AU50 in a Heritage auction. Dizzy and fletcher are still removing egg particals from their faces. >>
I am glad that Anaconda pulled this coin from the site- way too much bad press on this one. I hope Brandon that you re-think and possibly edit your response that you are only saying what the seller would like you to say. That will not give prospective buyers a warm and fuzzy feeling about buying from you in the future. What you sell does reflect on you as well as what you refuse to sell.
I bet the consortium might have given the original AU50 slab a nod of approval- obviously not this mistake slab.
Shame on NGC. I have defended them on numerous occasions, but this one is bad bad bad. The coin looks it received the MS70 treatment or something similar. They need to buy this one back pronto for their own benefit.
Great FAST work Russ on digging this one up- KUDOS
This gives the entire industry a bad image, and rightfully so.
<< <i>I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss >>
Dizzy, when submitting this may be true. But to knowledgeable people that can tell the difference and believe wear is wear no matter how it got there, this is not true IMO. Many collectors including myself have tried to help you understand these issues and more. Seriously, it might/will benefit you to not only ask for opinions but actually listen to collectors once in a while. Now I'm sure you will say you do, but I've not seen this.
Many much more knowledgeable than me have given you good advice in the past and now, and from where I'm sitting you've shown to clearly dismiss the collectors opinions all the time. All this said, this is not just about this coin, it is about others as far as "color" too. Ah, do what ya want, you're gonna do it anyway. And....... Hold on!!!!
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>Dizzy posts a drool thread over a "MS61" flowing hair dollar. Fletcher joins in the drooling. Russ turns up the coin as a PCGS AU50 in a Heritage auction. Dizzy and fletcher are still removing egg particals from their faces. >>
Now that was just plain funny >>
Untrue ... but funny. I would still like to have that coin (not at that price). I am not the least bit embarrassed, nor do I have egg on my face. However, I definitely have a little less confidence in this industry
<< <i>I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
This may be true for AU58 coins, but not a coin that is at best AU53. Bad NGC, bad!
fletcher forget about it.most members rag on anaconda, you and other's because they don't have the ball's to buy what they like whatever the cost, it's more "what's the greysheet say" so what if you pay over value 100x if you like and want the coin get it. I love looking at coins you've posted and coins anaconda have for sale.Can i buy them?No.but if i could i would. anaconda overpriced? yea but no one has to buy them if they dont want to.fletcher keep on keeping on and post them baby's
<< <i>I did not say that Russ was wrong ... I simply commented on how he continues to belittle people here. And, I was not trying to make this thread about me ... unlike Russ and his merry men have done once again on the OFR in the thread entitled: "Russ burns dizzy and fletcher"
Link-i-fied >> >>
You drew first blood, moron. Or did you forget your lame post early on in the thread?
When I first looked at the thread, I thought that the coin was a choice AU.
When I saw the NGC 61 on it, I thought that the vast majority of early coins that I see in MS 61 holders are, in fact, choice AU and that there was no need for me to post that.
Russ came up with the link and after careful examination, I believe that the two coins are 99+% the same coins. IMHO, PCGS underevaluated the coin when they encapsulated it. Someone tried to make the coin more attractive. It will be up to the next owner to decide if it is attractive to him. Most coins of this era are not virgin any longer.
The bottom line on all coins: Is the coin worth $X to me?
It really shouldn't be about arguing what grade it is.
People that are interested in adding a coin to their collection should focus on the value, rather than on an arbitrary grade. The only real # on the coin is what it next trades for.
The grade on these coins are really only valuable to Registry set collectors.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Did any of you see that link fletcher had up before he edited? There's a forum that watches this forum and does play-by-play commentary on the posts here. That was weird.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Did any of you see that link fletcher had up before he edited? There's a forum that watches this forum and does play-by-play commentary on the posts here. That was weird. >>
That coin would be the highlight of my collection, as I'm sure it would most likely be for 95% of all of us here on the boards.
Dizzyfoxx - I would not want any cleaned or artificially toned coin in my collection, let alone as a highlight. You could offer me a genuine 1804 Bust $ & if it looked like that one, I'd look you in the eye and tell you that I was not interested at any price.
While that coin obviously has substantial value to some people, I prefer the 1902 IHC in XF I picked up on a bid board 40 years ago to the coin which was the subject of this thread.
I'm surprised that more people haven't focused on the coin's being doctored, rather than the gradeinflation. As I stated on an earlier post, grading on Draped Bust and earlier coinage has been all over the planet for years.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
First- Thanks Russ! Appreciate the sleuthing. This is an instructive thread, to say the least.
Second-I agree with RYK and CCU-a key point is that this wonderful coin, which dates to the beginning of our republic, which survived the war of 1812, the Civil War, and great depression-is now a little less original. That saddens me.
Third-I am most assuredly NOT an expert at 18th century coins. But several posters in this thread are-and before the prior PCGS grade was posted, stated that they disagreed with the MS-61 grade. That hardly makes it a "Toss up" as to whether the coin should be graded AU or MS. Doubtless it is even more obviously not an MS coin in hand. Don Edited to add-I'm reminded that when the finest toned peace dollar in existence was shown to be blatantly ATed in a short time period-we, the ordinary collectors, remained in the dark as to who performed that job-despite the fact that given that short time period -it should have been easily deduced by those in the know.
WOW!! this started out as a cool thread about a really cool coin, I have to admit that the OP had me trying to figure out where I could find K100+ and push the "add to my cart" button and I dont even collect these things!! Now its turned into , 1) cant trust the dealers 2) cant trust the tpgs 3)cant trust anybody to thwart the coin doctors 4) Have to have Russ check out every coin you buy for pedigree.
I wonder how this will affect sales of those high end rarities at ANA next month??? No return option on signature auctions...means that ebay and internet sales will slow down. You will just have to take Russ to auctions with you to ensure you are not buying some doctored coin blessed by the tpgs.
Julian makes a great point. The grade on the slab really isn't that important. The real issue is whether or not the coin is appealing to you (the prospective buyer) and if the asking price reasonable. In other words, can you find a similar or nicer example for less money? With early U.S. coins in high grade, you may have to wait a long time for a comparable coin.
Anaconda wrote: "The coin is what it is. It may have looked like a better deal in the PCGS AU50 holder but it's now in an NGC MS61 holder. Was it undergraded as an AU50? I personally think so. Is it overgraded as an MS61? Is it market graded as an MS61 because of the available luster remaining that was most likely uncovered after it was cracked out of the AU holder? Base your opinions not on what's printed on the label in the holder but of the actual coin itself. If you don't agree with what NGC assigned to it, then it's probably more than you would want to spend for that particular coin. If that's the case, then you've made a decision to not pursue this coin. No big deal."
************ Since Anaconda doesn't really answer his own "is it overgraded as an MS61?" question----I'm guessing that means that he DOES believe that it's overgraded. Since they have it in-hand, that would certainly be enough for me to avoid it's 90K pricetag.
Can someone share what may have happened to this coin after being cracked out of its PCGS holder.....to shine it up, as it were?
<< <i>Did any of you see that link fletcher had up before he edited? There's a forum that watches this forum and does play-by-play commentary on the posts here. That was weird. >>
I think your deductions are a tad bit far fetched. While an occasional thread pops up over there about a thread over here, it's nowhere as much as, say, NGC boards, and they're usually made there to prevent such threads cluttering the CUCF, much like many threads on the old CUOF were made. (Surprise, it's primarily comprised of the old regulars of the CUOF)
<< <i>In other words, can you find a similar or nicer example for less money? >>
Sure, if you bought it when it was a PCGS AU50.
Russ, NCNE >>
That is the case in this situation. But when you buy any coin, early type or not, do you trust your own opinion or just put your trust in what the slab label says?
<< <i>Thanks Thigpen. I'd be really nervous dipping a 30K coin that already has nice toning! >>
Hey SS, What really is the downside? Take MS 70 for example- crack this one out of the 50 plastic and give it a 2 minute soak in MS 70. Worse case scenario is the coin looks worse. You could always then dip it in an acidic dip just long enough to get her nice and white again and send it into any of the top TPG's who regularly reward people for dipping and "shining up" old coins.
<< <i>Text It's not about the babysitting. It's about the disincentive to ruin a nice coin for more money. If all of the "good coins" were stickered and the "bad coins" were not stickered, someone might think twice about taking a "good coin" and making a "bad coin" out of it. >>
Agreed... but lets extend the argument further as to what could happen. If CAC maintains a data base with accepted and rejected slabs numbers, that would help. It would discourage crack outs and resubmissions... who would consider cracking a rejected coin for resubmission, if it is clearly low end for the grade or at best or overgraded?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
A couple of dealers have said that if you like the coin, just buy it, and never mind what the slab says. In this case,when you go to sell it, almost anyone will tell you it is au and you will take a $50,000 bath. No way that coin is ms. And to say that it isn't worth arguing over what grade the coin is. It is when the value went up by $60,000. Shame on you guys who said that. Remind me not to buy from you. Or better yet, I'd like to see you pay ms money for an au. On anything.
-- "A couple of dealers have said that if you like the coin, just buy it, and never mind what the slab says. In this case,when you go to sell it, almost anyone will tell you it is au and you will take a $50,000 bath. No way that coin is ms. And to say that it isn't worth arguing over what grade the coin is. It is when the value went up by $60,000. Shame on you guys who said that. Remind me not to buy from you. Or better yet, I'd like to see you pay ms money for an au. On anything." --
I think that they were suggesting that a collector disregard the grade on the insert when determining the value of the coin to him or her. That's a far cry from advising a collector to pony up an additional $60,000. In fact, I understand the advice (especially from Julian) to mean just the opposite of the way you're taking it.
<< <i>Can someone share what may have happened to this coin after being cracked out of its PCGS holder.....to shine it up, as it were? >>
I can think of two or three dipping solutions to get that result. >>
This seems to be a late-in-the-argument developement to say that it was dipped and recolored. That I strongly disagree with. The main thing that changed the color and shine was a different, much superior, photographer. And BTW, Brandon's better photographs are not all flattering. They show the hits better as well as the color.
For those of you who want to look at the photos again before replying they're on page 4, side by side.
<< <i>-- "A couple of dealers have said that if you like the coin, just buy it, and never mind what the slab says. In this case,when you go to sell it, almost anyone will tell you it is au and you will take a $50,000 bath. No way that coin is ms. And to say that it isn't worth arguing over what grade the coin is. It is when the value went up by $60,000. Shame on you guys who said that. Remind me not to buy from you. Or better yet, I'd like to see you pay ms money for an au. On anything." -- I think that they were suggesting that a collector disregard the grade on the insert when determining the value of the coin to him or her. That's a far cry from advising a collector to pony up an additional $60,000. In fact, I understand the advice (especially from Julian) to mean just the opposite of the way you're taking it. >>
Exactly. If I am one of the dealers being referred to here, my suggestion was that if you like the coin this new info should help you get it for less money. --Jerry
Comments
Next time I'll try to pick a coin that is actually worthy of some debate and discussion.
I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO.
link
<< <i>I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
If true, the "reputable dealers" are buying into the market grading concept. Wonder why? Could it be to get MS money for AU coins?
There's no "coin toss" if you go by the book: the primary difference between a weak strike MS coin and a strong AU coin with some rub on the high points is the absence or presence of luster breaks on the high points lacking detail. An image is useless for that.
<< <i>I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. >>
You really should stop trying to pretend you know what you're talking about.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
Tell us, are you just an Anaconda shill, or are you also the consignor of this coin?
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
<< <i>Wow, if someone would of told me that less than 24 hours after praising what I think is a wonderful coin, that the thread would have 200+ replies I would of said they're
Next time I'll try to pick a coin that is actually worthy of some debate and discussion.
I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. >>
You really should stop trying to pretend you know what you're talking about.
Russ, NCNE >>
I make a strong effort trying to pretend to respect your opinion, feel free to do the same.
<< <i>What are the odds a TPG would intentionally over grade a coin such as this one in a grand money making scheme between all parties involved? >>
Integrity and future business. Grading is subjective regardless of how much experience you have. Grading is also done by humans and humans make mistakes.
Just review some of the "fooled me" replies earlier in this thread.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
Tell us, are you just an Anaconda shill, or are you also the consignor of this coin? >>
Neither, although I sure wish I was the latter. That coin would be the highlight of my collection, as I'm sure it would most likely be for 95% of all of us here on the boards.
In the last year or so of posting at this site, I have seen countless threads where individuals openly bragged about cracking out coins in the hopes of landing a better grade. If the coin in the OP hadn't been obviously "conserved" then I'd say let he without a "crack out" throw the first slab.
I'd say if Anaconda was not aware of the history of the coin then they have done nothing wrong. If they were aware of its history then IMO as a collector I would be disappointed in the fact that the information was not revealed as a part of the sale. It's not that hard; when approached by the consignor the reply could have been; yes we'd love to consign this piece however we think that it is only fair to reveal the coins history. If the consignor didn't like it they could shop it elsewhere. To just turn a blind eye to something like this and put all of the responsibility on the side of the prospective purchaser is not what I think will land any dealer with a base of long term high end collectors.
<< <i>Regarding PCGS dipping coins, I just read this on another forum. Is this untrue? I was surprised to read it.
link >>
without the owner's knowledge, i can't say; they do however dip coins that have turned in the holder or are no longer attractive. i assume they do this so they don't have to pay the coin's owner the value of the coin.
here is the thread i posted earlier
I will say however, the moderator that started the thread you posted a highly respected collector of world gold coins, one of the larger collectors out there in both the size of the collection and the breadth of knowledge.
<< <i>You really should stop trying to pretend you know what you're talking about.
Russ, NCNE >>
As should you ... the ability to search through the Heritage archives does not a numismatist make. And, your tone and the way that you treat people are just a few of the reasons why you will never be taken seriously in this industry no matter how much you continue to pretend that you are. I am new to this, I make mistakes, I continue to learn from them, and make better purchasing decisions everyday. However, you, Russ ... well, you will always be Russ. Need I say more???
<< <i>
<< <i>You really should stop trying to pretend you know what you're talking about.
Russ, NCNE >>
As should you ... the ability to search through the Heritage archives does not a numismatist make. And, your tone and the way that you treat people are just a few of the reasons why you will never be taken seriously in this industry no matter how much you continue to pretend that you are. I am new to this, I make mistakes, I continue to learn from them, and make better purchasing decisions everyday. However, you, Russ ... well, you will always be Russ. Need I say more???
Fletcher, read page one of this thread. If Russ hadn't posted what he did, you'd never have known what you know now. Besides, why do you have to try to make every thread about you? Jeez.... quit looking in the mirror so much.
I also see that this thread made it to Biddlesbank!
122/123
John Reich Collectors Society
Capped Bust Dimes
<< <i>
<< <i>Fletcher, read page one of this thread. If Russ hadn't posted what he did, you'd never have known what you know now. Besides, why do you have to try to make every thread about you? Jeez.... quit looking in the mirror so much. >>
I did not say that Russ was wrong ... I simply commented on how he continues to belittle people here. And, I was not trying to make this thread about me ... unlike Russ and his merry men have done once again on the OFR in the thread entitled: "Russ burns dizzy and fletcher"
Oh...... my mistake...... sounded like you were "belittling" him.
<< <i>Dizzy posts a drool thread over a "MS61" flowing hair dollar. Fletcher joins in the drooling. Russ turns up the coin as a PCGS AU50 in a Heritage auction. Dizzy and fletcher are still removing egg particals from their faces. >>
Now that was just plain funny
I am glad that Anaconda pulled this coin from the site- way too much bad press on this one.
I hope Brandon that you re-think and possibly edit your response that you are only saying what the seller would like you to say. That will not give prospective buyers a warm and fuzzy feeling about buying from you in the future.
What you sell does reflect on you as well as what you refuse to sell.
I bet the consortium might have given the original AU50 slab a nod of approval- obviously not this mistake slab.
Shame on NGC. I have defended them on numerous occasions, but this one is bad bad bad. The coin looks it received the MS70 treatment or something similar. They need to buy this one back pronto for their own benefit.
Great FAST work Russ on digging this one up- KUDOS
This gives the entire industry a bad image, and rightfully so.
<< <i>I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss >>
Dizzy, when submitting this may be true. But to knowledgeable people that can tell the difference and believe wear is wear no matter how it got there, this is not true IMO. Many collectors including myself have tried to help you understand these issues and more. Seriously, it might/will benefit you to not only ask for opinions but actually listen to collectors once in a while. Now I'm sure you will say you do, but I've not seen this.
Many much more knowledgeable than me have given you good advice in the past and now, and from where I'm sitting you've shown to clearly dismiss the collectors opinions all the time. All this said, this is not just about this coin, it is about others as far as "color" too.
Ah, do what ya want, you're gonna do it anyway. And....... Hold on!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Dizzy posts a drool thread over a "MS61" flowing hair dollar. Fletcher joins in the drooling. Russ turns up the coin as a PCGS AU50 in a Heritage auction. Dizzy and fletcher are still removing egg particals from their faces. >>
Now that was just plain funny
Untrue ... but funny. I would still like to have that coin (not at that price). I am not the least bit embarrassed, nor do I have egg on my face. However, I definitely have a little less confidence in this industry
<< <i>I've been told by so many reputable dealers that often the difference between a high AU and a low MS coin (especially early busts) is a simple coin toss. I think this coin was undergraded as an AU50 IMO and is much more accurately graded as a MS61 judging by the images. JMHO. >>
This may be true for AU58 coins, but not a coin that is at best AU53. Bad NGC, bad!
<< <i>I did not say that Russ was wrong ... I simply commented on how he continues to belittle people here. And, I was not trying to make this thread about me ... unlike Russ and his merry men have done once again on the OFR in the thread entitled: "Russ burns dizzy and fletcher"
Link-i-fied >> >>
You drew first blood, moron. Or did you forget your lame post early on in the thread?
Russ, NCNE
When I saw the NGC 61 on it, I thought that the vast majority of early coins that I see in MS 61 holders are, in fact, choice AU and that there was no need for me to post that.
Russ came up with the link and after careful examination, I believe that the two coins are 99+% the same coins. IMHO, PCGS underevaluated the coin when they encapsulated it. Someone tried to make the coin more attractive. It will be up to the next owner to decide if it is attractive to him. Most coins of this era are not virgin any longer.
The bottom line on all coins: Is the coin worth $X to me?
It really shouldn't be about arguing what grade it is.
People that are interested in adding a coin to their collection should focus on the value, rather than on an arbitrary grade. The only real # on the coin is what it next trades for.
The grade on these coins are really only valuable to Registry set collectors.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Did any of you see that link fletcher had up before he edited? There's a forum that watches this forum and does play-by-play commentary on the posts here. That was weird. >>
It's like we're all celebrities here. Sort of.
Dizzyfoxx - I would not want any cleaned or artificially toned coin in my collection, let alone as a highlight. You could offer me a genuine 1804 Bust $ & if it looked like that one, I'd look you in the eye and tell you that I was not interested at any price.
While that coin obviously has substantial value to some people, I prefer the 1902 IHC in XF I picked up on a bid board 40 years ago
to the coin which was the subject of this thread.
I'm surprised that more people haven't focused on the coin's being doctored, rather than the gradeinflation. As I stated on an earlier post, grading on Draped Bust and earlier coinage has been all over the planet for years.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
.....u trust your kid with an animal like this ?
Thanks Russ! Appreciate the sleuthing. This is an instructive thread, to say the least.
Second-I agree with RYK and CCU-a key point is that this wonderful coin, which dates to the beginning of our republic, which survived the war of 1812, the Civil War, and great depression-is now a little less original. That saddens me.
Third-I am most assuredly NOT an expert at 18th century coins. But several posters in this thread are-and before the prior PCGS grade was posted, stated that they disagreed with the MS-61 grade. That hardly makes it a "Toss up" as to whether the coin should be graded AU or MS. Doubtless it is even more obviously not an MS coin in hand.
Don
Edited to add-I'm reminded that when the finest toned peace dollar in existence was shown to be blatantly ATed in a short time period-we, the ordinary collectors, remained in the dark as to who performed that job-despite the fact that given that short time period -it should have been easily deduced by those in the know.
I have to admit that the OP had me trying to figure out where I could find K100+ and push the "add to my cart" button and I dont even collect these things!!
Now its turned into ,
1) cant trust the dealers
2) cant trust the tpgs
3)cant trust anybody to thwart the coin doctors
4) Have to have Russ check out every coin you buy for pedigree.
I wonder how this will affect sales of those high end rarities at ANA next month??? No return option on signature auctions...means that ebay and internet sales will slow down. You will just have to take Russ to auctions with you to ensure you are not buying some doctored coin blessed by the tpgs.
"IN RUSS WE TRUST"
Julian makes a great point. The grade on the slab really isn't that important. The real issue is whether or not the coin is appealing to you (the prospective buyer) and if the asking price reasonable. In other words, can you find a similar or nicer example for less money? With early U.S. coins in high grade, you may have to wait a long time for a comparable coin.
"The coin is what it is. It may have looked like a better deal in the PCGS AU50 holder but it's now in an NGC MS61 holder. Was it undergraded as an AU50? I personally think so. Is it overgraded as an MS61? Is it market graded as an MS61 because of the available luster remaining that was most likely uncovered after it was cracked out of the AU holder? Base your opinions not on what's printed on the label in the holder but of the actual coin itself. If you don't agree with what NGC assigned to it, then it's probably more than you would want to spend for that particular coin. If that's the case, then you've made a decision to not pursue this coin. No big deal."
************
Since Anaconda doesn't really answer his own "is it overgraded as an MS61?" question----I'm guessing that means that he DOES believe that it's overgraded. Since they have it in-hand, that would certainly be enough for me to avoid it's 90K pricetag.
Can someone share what may have happened to this coin after being cracked out of its PCGS holder.....to shine it up, as it were?
<< <i>Did any of you see that link fletcher had up before he edited? There's a forum that watches this forum and does play-by-play commentary on the posts here. That was weird. >>
I think your deductions are a tad bit far fetched. While an occasional thread pops up over there about a thread over here, it's nowhere as much as, say, NGC boards, and they're usually made there to prevent such threads cluttering the CUCF, much like many threads on the old CUOF were made. (Surprise, it's primarily comprised of the old regulars of the CUOF)
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>In other words, can you find a similar or nicer example for less money? >>
Sure, if you bought it when it was a PCGS AU50.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>In other words, can you find a similar or nicer example for less money? >>
Sure, if you bought it when it was a PCGS AU50.
Russ, NCNE >>
That is the case in this situation. But when you buy any coin, early type or not, do you trust your own opinion or just put your trust in what the slab label says?
<< <i>Can someone share what may have happened to this coin after being cracked out of its PCGS holder.....to shine it up, as it were? >>
I can think of two or three dipping solutions to get that result.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>But when you buy any coin, early type or not, do you trust your own opinion or just put your trust in what the slab label says? >>
Personally, I never just trust what the label says. But then, I'm a natural born cynic.
Russ, NCNE
I'd be really nervous dipping a 30K coin that already has nice toning!
<< <i>Thanks Thigpen.
I'd be really nervous dipping a 30K coin that already has nice toning! >>
Hey SS, What really is the downside? Take MS 70 for example- crack this one out of the 50 plastic and give it a 2 minute soak in MS 70. Worse case scenario is the coin looks worse. You could always then dip it in an acidic dip just long enough to get her nice and white again and send it into any of the top TPG's who regularly reward people for dipping and "shining up" old coins.
<< <i>Text It's not about the babysitting. It's about the disincentive to ruin a nice coin for more money. If all of the "good coins" were stickered and the "bad coins" were not stickered, someone might think twice about taking a "good coin" and making a "bad coin" out of it. >>
Agreed... but lets extend the argument further as to what could happen. If CAC maintains a data base with accepted and rejected slabs numbers, that would help. It would discourage crack outs and resubmissions... who would consider cracking a rejected coin for resubmission, if it is clearly low end for the grade or at best or overgraded?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Steve
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>It was a better dealer when it was in a PCGS AU50 holder.
Russ, NCNE >>
What's this called? PWNED?
I think that they were suggesting that a collector disregard the grade on the insert when determining the value of the coin to him or her. That's a far cry from advising a collector to pony up an additional $60,000. In fact, I understand the advice (especially from Julian) to mean just the opposite of the way you're taking it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Can someone share what may have happened to this coin after being cracked out of its PCGS holder.....to shine it up, as it were? >>
I can think of two or three dipping solutions to get that result. >>
This seems to be a late-in-the-argument developement to say that it was dipped and recolored. That I strongly disagree with. The main thing that changed the color and shine was a different, much superior, photographer. And BTW, Brandon's better photographs are not all flattering. They show the hits better as well as the color.
For those of you who want to look at the photos again before replying they're on page 4, side by side.
--Jerry
<< <i>-- "A couple of dealers have said that if you like the coin, just buy it, and never mind what the slab says. In this case,when you go to sell it, almost anyone will tell you it is au and you will take a $50,000 bath. No way that coin is ms. And to say that it isn't worth arguing over what grade the coin is. It is when the value went up by $60,000. Shame on you guys who said that. Remind me not to buy from you. Or better yet, I'd like to see you pay ms money for an au. On anything." -- I think that they were suggesting that a collector disregard the grade on the insert when determining the value of the coin to him or her. That's a far cry from advising a collector to pony up an additional $60,000. In fact, I understand the advice (especially from Julian) to mean just the opposite of the way you're taking it. >>
Exactly. If I am one of the dealers being referred to here, my suggestion was that if you like the coin this new info should help you get it for less money. --Jerry