<< <i>I have to wonder if some kind of spot removal was attempted on the obverse. Could just be the image, but? >>
The two most prominent obverse spots look less conspicuous on the "after" photos, but who knows? >>
I think it is very likely the coin was worked by NCS and then rewarded with a higher grade. Even AU58 would have been a gift, but MS61 is preposterous. And Laura had remarked that NGC was getting "better".
<< <i>I have to wonder if some kind of spot removal was attempted on the obverse. Could just be the image, but? >>
The two most prominent obverse spots look less conspicuous on the "after" photos, but who knows? >>
I think it is very likely the coin was worked by NCS and then rewarded with a higher grade. Even AU58 would have been a gift, but MS61 is preposterous. And Laura had remarked that NGC was getting "better". >>
The coin could have been "made" a year ago...who knows?
I'm confused about this new "virtual bourse" that Heritage has. This 1837 half shows up there as well as in Anaconda's inventory. Is this a way to get additional exposure?
<< <i>Does this example illustrate why we need (or at least may benefit from) a "Consortium"? >>
Why, so you can spend $91,500 sight unseen? Even at the Heritage price of $33K? I'd be sure to see that coin in-hand first, then do some research before spending that kind of cash. It's pretty obvious that there are potential wear spots on this coin that COULD be weak strike or COULD be wear. Without seeing it in-hand, I wouldn't make that assessment.
Dealers on the other hand, might buy this sight unseen. So who is the consortium REALLY for? >>
If the "Consortium" were the standard for high-end coins in 2006, the coin may have stayed in its AU-50 holder and sold to a collector for $35,000-$40,000. Fast forward a year and a half. Now, it will take the $80,000-$90,000 for a collector to land the coin, and it's probably not as original as it was 18 months ago.
Before reading the thread I love the coin and immediately wondered how a coin like this cannot have a pediree.\
After reading I still wouldn't kick that coin out of bed and still wonder about the pedigree. Where are the "buy the coin not the plastic" guys now....the coin is just as beautiful as it was before you knew it used to be a 50.
<< <i>Before reading the thread I love the coin and immediately wondered how a coin like this cannot have a pediree.\
After reading I still wouldn't kick that coin out of bed and still wonder about the pedigree. Where are the "buy the coin not the plastic" guys now....the coin is just as beautiful as it was before you knew it used to be a 50.
--Jerry >>
It was beautiful in AU it is still beautiful but not worth MS is all that is being said, bring on the CAC
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."
Grading on Draped Bust and earlier material has been all over the planet for quite some time. You really can't grade open collar coins without seeing them due to striking issues, even more so with coins of this era.
I also have seen the grading services "look the other way" re Draped Bust and earlier vintage coins which have been cleaned or otherwise worked, as long as such doctoring is not deemed to be severe. If they didn't slab cleaned Bust $s, you would see maybe 20% of what is now slabbed, encapsulated.
I hope the different set of pics of this coin simply reflect different lighting. Otherwise, imo, the coin has been baked. I have seen that kind of rim-toning on too many Unc. CBHs for me to consider it to be natural. Coins this old don't have toning like that. While I don't personally care for the coin, I can see why many others would find it to be attractive.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
This is a field, early dollars, that I am extremely draw to, but after this revelation I now know I do not know enough to collect in this area.
This coin came on the website this weekend under new purchases. I loved the coin, but here was the problem I was having even before the discovery that it was a breakout from a PCGS AU50.
What should I pay for this coin? PCGS Price Guide is 37,500 in AU55; 55,000 in MS60; 67,500 in MS61; and 95,000 in MS62 and these are for prices for coins in PCGS slabs. This coin is priced at almost the MS62 level for a PCGS coin.
Greysheet bid (I know it has no bearing when buying a premium coin, but I still wanted to know) is 15,750 in AU50, 40,000 in MS60, and 80,000 in MS63.
What's wrong with this hobby? For me, this is the exact problem. How can I, coming back into the hobby after being out, trust anything I see when the same coin grades AU50 18 months ago and MS61 today?
Anaconda, I am in now way trying to say you knew anything about this. I look at your website every day after I'm back looking for coins. I'mmm just saying what a stumbling block it is for me as I try to buy coins now in this hobby.
<< <i>So, you guys don't have to swap back and forth for comparison:
Russ, NCNE >>
Looks like the luster was impaired further after it was messed with as well. I dont' think the CAC will influence greatly whoever buys these messed with coins, at least immediately. The dealers who "make" these (not Anaconda, but whoever submitted the coin) have too much to lose.
I don't think the CAC would have changed anything. So somebody would pay $35,000-$40,000 and crack it out hoping for an upgrade. Even with a sticker, who says the CAC got it right? Maybe they would agree with a 60 or 61 too (I'm not saying that they would, but a buyer of the coin might think that).
And no, I wouldn't buy this coin at $91,500 if it was a AU50 or a MS62. Sticker or not. I also like Bentleys and Corvettes, but you don't see me driving them. Too much money. It has nothing to do with the number on the insert.
<< <i>So, you guys don't have to swap back and forth for comparison:
Russ, NCNE >>
Looks like the luster was impaired further after it was messed with as well. I dont' think the CAC will influence greatly whoever buys these messed with coins, at least immediately. The dealers who "make" these (not Anaconda, but whoever submitted the coin) have too much to lose. >>
Could that pattern on front of her neck that kinda looks like a print, be from a laser sweeping back and forth?
Looks like it was hosed off and reholdered. The surfaces look hard, and looked better dirty. JMO Adrian has noted on several occasions that he doesn't submit, but rather buys in the holder. I'd guess he bought it as MS61. If so, the consortium sticker would benefit him as a dealer, and would punish the submitter, but would it really be sufficient punishment to revalue the coin from MS61 back to AU50? Maybe not. We'll see.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Seems pretty harsh to me. I believe I'll withhold judgement til I know the whole story.
AKA kokimoki the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed Join the NRA and protect YOUR right to keep and bear arms To protest against all hunting of game is a sign of softness of head, not soundness of heart. Theodore Roosevelt [L]http://www.ourfallensoldier.com/ThompsonMichaelE_MemorialPage.html[L]
I'm always impressed with ARC's ability to take pics that don't show the scratches on the coin. And let's not even start to discuss their super duper RBSG abilities...
<< <i>Looks like the luster was impaired further after it was messed with as well. I dont' think the CAC will influence greatly whoever buys these messed with coins, at least immediately. The dealers who "make" these (not Anaconda, but whoever submitted the coin) have too much to lose. >>
Guys, this coin hasn't been played with. The differences in the two images is simply a matter of lighting. One image shows the coin for all it's flaws and the other image has the coin lit from an angle to show luster and hide some of the spots. This is almost common practice for several on-line dealers.
The real problem here is NGC. I'm generally favorably towards NGC, but this is an example of market grading out of control.
Anyone want to guess what slab this coin will be sitting in 100 years from now? Yep, you're looking at it. Nobody would dare crack it out now. Consider this coin forever MS61.
Nice post. Good job Russ on finding the coin and its auction price while it was in a PCGS holder. This is very disappointing to see. Yes, the coin has been lightened and in no way looks like silver exposed naturally to air over 200 years. Then NGC graded it a MS61. How could they get it so wrong? No experienced coin collector or dealer would buy it as a MS coin. Now the coin has a new holder and a new high price. Sorry, I won't defend Anaconda either.
I fear the consortium, due to member history, lack of technical expertise and research skills, and desire to ignore obscure problems in a hope to bring a coin to market will not do such due diligence investigation on coins they sticker (not saying they'd sticker this one) and rather rely on their own 'expertise' in evaluating it. I hope they prove my assumptions wrong.
Why you on Adrian, fc? There's a post in this thread that seems to suggest that someone here got it into the ngc slab, and it wasn't Adrian. And the person who got it into the ngc slab isn't at fault either, ngc is.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Historically, I don't think Adrian purchases such coins unslabbed, and I'd be willing to put money on the fact that he purchased it in the slab it is in.
1) Monsterman came in and told us what happened, (y'all need to read the whole thread). He thought he bought a 62, pcgs told him 60, ngc told him 61, he owed for the coin, he flipped it, paid for it and made some dollars. Now snake is trying to offload it. pretty standard, imho.
2) This is the important point: smoeone mentioned "pedigrees." I would assert that the concept of the CAC is to, for lack of a better term, create an "instant pedigree." There are certainly conflict of interest issues and maybe other distractions for the group to overcome, but bottom line is that they are trying to "save" people like Anaconda from purchasing au50 coins in ms61 slabs.
<< <i>Why you on Adrian, fc? There's a post in this thread that seems to suggest that someone here got it into the ngc slab, and it wasn't Adrian. And the person who got it into the ngc slab isn't at fault either, ngc is. >>
<< <i>Guys, this coin hasn't been played with. The differences in the two images is simply a matter of lighting. One image shows the coin for all it's flaws and the other image has the coin lit from an angle to show luster and hide some of the spots. This is almost common practice for several on-line dealers.
The real problem here is NGC. I'm generally favorably towards NGC, but this is an example of market grading out of control.
Anyone want to guess what slab this coin will be sitting in 100 years from now? Yep, you're looking at it. Nobody would dare crack it out now. Consider this coin forever MS61. >>
Here is the Anaconda slab picture -- shows a slightly different angle, and the spots are still very faint -- very likely an NCS job.
1) Monsterman came in and told us what happened, (y'all need to read the whole thread). He thought he bought a 62, pcgs told him 60, ngc told him 61, he owed for the coin, he flipped it, paid for it and made some dollars. Now snake is trying to offload it. pretty standard, imho.
2) This is the important point: smoeone mentioned "pedigrees." I would assert that the concept of the CAC is to, for lack of a better term, create an "instant pedigree." There are certainly conflict of interest issues and maybe other distractions for the group to overcome, but bottom line is that they are trying to "save" people like Anaconda from purchasing au50 coins in ms61 slabs.
z >>
I think monsterman was simply posing a hypothetical, not reciting what had actually occurred.
Start with one nice, solid AU coin. Add a little bit of NCS "conservation" and mix well. Let simmer for a year or so, adding "gradeflation" and "market grading" occasionally. Serves 91,000.
do u think anaconda did not do the same research russ did before buying that coin?
do you think anaconda cannot grade? do u think anaconda knows that the coin is AU and really does not care since it is now slabbed MS?
another dealer profiting from grade inflation?
it does not matter to me if he did not doctor the coin or have it regraded. the snake is the end part of this equation, the dealer selling it.
aware of its history? i am sure of it. after all, the snake is an expert.
this is why coin collecting is getting a bad name. if someone pays his asking price, gets the coin reviewed by an expert will the expert tell them you just bought an AU for MS, thus taking a huge loss? should not a dealer watch out for their clients?
you think anaconda will refuse the amount he is asking saying look at this thread and please then make an offer?
The coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Slab or no slab. This is just one of the further ends of the spectrum, but not any different than hundreds if not thousands of mis-graded coins out there. How is it any different than the coin several years ago, some great rarity that was an XF45 or or something, then ended up in a proof holder. I guess sh!t happens... I'd like to hear Anaconda's side of it.
AKA kokimoki the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed Join the NRA and protect YOUR right to keep and bear arms To protest against all hunting of game is a sign of softness of head, not soundness of heart. Theodore Roosevelt [L]http://www.ourfallensoldier.com/ThompsonMichaelE_MemorialPage.html[L]
<< <i>The coin can be graded whatever between AU and low MS, and the price on it can be whatever between AU and low MS. All that matters is that coin is simply a breathtaking piece of history. >>
Someone paid nearly 300% more for this coin than others auctioned before ..so this buyer already had the plan to clean up !!
Comments
But it never occurred to me in my wildest dreams that it would end up in a MS holder.
That coin has rub...no two ways around it. Im not saying I dont like it...it looks lovely...but it isnt mint state. No way.
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>I have to wonder if some kind of spot removal was attempted on the obverse. Could just be the image, but? >>
The two most prominent obverse spots look less conspicuous on the "after" photos, but who knows? >>
I think it is very likely the coin was worked by NCS and then rewarded with a higher grade. Even AU58 would have been a gift, but MS61 is preposterous. And Laura had remarked that NGC was getting "better".
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have to wonder if some kind of spot removal was attempted on the obverse. Could just be the image, but? >>
The two most prominent obverse spots look less conspicuous on the "after" photos, but who knows? >>
I think it is very likely the coin was worked by NCS and then rewarded with a higher grade. Even AU58 would have been a gift, but MS61 is preposterous. And Laura had remarked that NGC was getting "better". >>
The coin could have been "made" a year ago...who knows?
I'm confused about this new "virtual bourse" that Heritage has.
This 1837 half shows up there as well as in Anaconda's inventory.
Is this a way to get additional exposure?
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Does this example illustrate why we need (or at least may benefit from) a "Consortium"? >>
Why, so you can spend $91,500 sight unseen? Even at the Heritage price of $33K? I'd be sure to see that coin in-hand first, then do some research before spending that kind of cash. It's pretty obvious that there are potential wear spots on this coin that COULD be weak strike or COULD be wear. Without seeing it in-hand, I wouldn't make that assessment.
Dealers on the other hand, might buy this sight unseen. So who is the consortium REALLY for? >>
If the "Consortium" were the standard for high-end coins in 2006, the coin may have stayed in its AU-50 holder and sold to a collector for $35,000-$40,000. Fast forward a year and a half. Now, it will take the $80,000-$90,000 for a collector to land the coin, and it's probably not as original as it was 18 months ago.
Awesome coin though!!
After reading I still wouldn't kick that coin out of bed and still wonder about the pedigree. Where are the "buy the coin not the plastic" guys now....the coin is just as beautiful as it was before you knew it used to be a 50.
--Jerry
<< <i>Before reading the thread I love the coin and immediately wondered how a coin like this cannot have a pediree.\
After reading I still wouldn't kick that coin out of bed and still wonder about the pedigree. Where are the "buy the coin not the plastic" guys now....the coin is just as beautiful as it was before you knew it used to be a 50.
--Jerry >>
It was beautiful in AU it is still beautiful but not worth MS is all that is being said, bring on the CAC
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
I also have seen the grading services "look the other way" re Draped Bust and earlier vintage coins which have been cleaned or otherwise worked, as long as such doctoring is not deemed to be severe. If they didn't slab cleaned Bust $s, you would see maybe 20% of what is now slabbed, encapsulated.
I hope the different set of pics of this coin simply reflect different lighting. Otherwise, imo, the coin has been baked. I have seen that kind of rim-toning on too many Unc. CBHs for me to consider it to be natural. Coins this old don't have toning like that. While I don't personally care for the coin, I can see why many others would find it to be attractive.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Herb
This coin came on the website this weekend under new purchases. I loved the coin, but here was the problem I was having even before the discovery that it was a breakout from a PCGS AU50.
What should I pay for this coin? PCGS Price Guide is 37,500 in AU55; 55,000 in MS60; 67,500 in MS61; and 95,000 in MS62 and these are for prices for coins in PCGS slabs. This coin is priced at almost the MS62 level for a PCGS coin.
Greysheet bid (I know it has no bearing when buying a premium coin, but I still wanted to know) is 15,750 in AU50, 40,000 in MS60, and 80,000 in MS63.
What's wrong with this hobby? For me, this is the exact problem. How can I, coming back into the hobby after being out, trust anything I see when the same coin grades AU50 18 months ago and MS61 today?
Anaconda, I am in now way trying to say you knew anything about this. I look at your website every day after I'm back looking for coins. I'mmm just saying what a stumbling block it is for me as I try to buy coins now in this hobby.
<< <i>So, you guys don't have to swap back and forth for comparison:
Russ, NCNE >>
Looks like the luster was impaired further after it was messed with as well. I dont' think the CAC will influence greatly whoever buys these messed with coins, at least immediately. The dealers who "make" these (not Anaconda, but whoever submitted the coin) have too much to lose.
It makes me really afraid of buying any high level coin in a NGC holder at this time.
And no, I wouldn't buy this coin at $91,500 if it was a AU50 or a MS62. Sticker or not. I also like Bentleys and Corvettes, but you don't see me driving them. Too much money. It has nothing to do with the number on the insert.
<< <i>
<< <i>So, you guys don't have to swap back and forth for comparison:
Russ, NCNE >>
Looks like the luster was impaired further after it was messed with as well. I dont' think the CAC will influence greatly whoever buys these messed with coins, at least immediately. The dealers who "make" these (not Anaconda, but whoever submitted the coin) have too much to lose. >>
Could that pattern on front of her neck that kinda looks like a print, be from a laser sweeping back and forth?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Anyone hazard a guess what grade it would cross back into a PCGS holder? And different grade from PCGS if broken out and resubmitted raw? >>
AU53.
from dizzyfox posting his coins for sale constantly to this.
anaconda is aptly named, and i do not care if he messed with the
coin or not.
he sells them.
strike 3 you are out snake.
<< <i>he sells them. >>
<< <i>strike 3 you are out snake. >>
Seems pretty harsh to me. I believe I'll withhold judgement til I know the whole story.
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
Join the NRA and protect YOUR right to keep and bear arms
To protest against all hunting of game is a sign of softness of head, not soundness of heart. Theodore Roosevelt
[L]http://www.ourfallensoldier.com/ThompsonMichaelE_MemorialPage.html[L]
<< <i>Looks like the luster was impaired further after it was messed with as well. I dont' think the CAC will influence greatly whoever buys these messed with coins, at least immediately. The dealers who "make" these (not Anaconda, but whoever submitted the coin) have too much to lose. >>
Guys, this coin hasn't been played with. The differences in the two images is simply a matter of lighting. One image shows the coin for all it's flaws and the other image has the coin lit from an angle to show luster and hide some of the spots. This is almost common practice for several on-line dealers.
The real problem here is NGC. I'm generally favorably towards NGC, but this is an example of market grading out of control.
Anyone want to guess what slab this coin will be sitting in 100 years from now? Yep, you're looking at it. Nobody would dare crack it out now. Consider this coin forever MS61.
FrederickCoinClub
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
1) Monsterman came in and told us what happened, (y'all need to read the whole thread). He thought he bought a 62, pcgs told him 60, ngc told him 61, he owed for the coin, he flipped it, paid for it and made some dollars. Now snake is trying to offload it. pretty standard, imho.
2) This is the important point: smoeone mentioned "pedigrees." I would assert that the concept of the CAC is to, for lack of a better term, create an "instant pedigree." There are certainly conflict of interest issues and maybe other distractions for the group to overcome, but bottom line is that they are trying to "save" people like Anaconda from purchasing au50 coins in ms61 slabs.
z
<< <i>Why you on Adrian, fc? There's a post in this thread that seems to suggest that someone here got it into the ngc slab, and it wasn't Adrian. And the person who got it into the ngc slab isn't at fault either, ngc is. >>
Let us know when you've made a purchase....
Nice file name!
<< <i>I think the Consortium needs to recruit Russ. >>
Hopefully they recruit someone as a full time employee with a good eye and superb technical research skills to match.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
Dan, perhaps they did.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Guys, this coin hasn't been played with. The differences in the two images is simply a matter of lighting. One image shows the coin for all it's flaws and the other image has the coin lit from an angle to show luster and hide some of the spots. This is almost common practice for several on-line dealers.
The real problem here is NGC. I'm generally favorably towards NGC, but this is an example of market grading out of control.
Anyone want to guess what slab this coin will be sitting in 100 years from now? Yep, you're looking at it. Nobody would dare crack it out now. Consider this coin forever MS61.
Here is the Anaconda slab picture -- shows a slightly different angle, and the spots are still very faint -- very likely an NCS job.
<< <i>Two Points:
1) Monsterman came in and told us what happened, (y'all need to read the whole thread). He thought he bought a 62, pcgs told him 60, ngc told him 61, he owed for the coin, he flipped it, paid for it and made some dollars. Now snake is trying to offload it. pretty standard, imho.
2) This is the important point: smoeone mentioned "pedigrees." I would assert that the concept of the CAC is to, for lack of a better term, create an "instant pedigree." There are certainly conflict of interest issues and maybe other distractions for the group to overcome, but bottom line is that they are trying to "save" people like Anaconda from purchasing au50 coins in ms61 slabs.
z >>
I think monsterman was simply posing a hypothetical, not reciting what had actually occurred.
I think monsterman was simply posing a hypothetical, not reciting what had actually occurred.
exactly
that is why bruce has so many expensive monsters....he is always one step ahead of the field
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>>>>>
I think monsterman was simply posing a hypothetical, not reciting what had actually occurred.
exactly
that is why bruce has so many expensive monsters....he is always one step ahead of the field
monsterman >>
Oh my. How does a coin go from AU to MS?
<< <i>Oh my. How does a coin go from AU to MS? >>
Start with one nice, solid AU coin. Add a little bit of NCS "conservation" and mix well. Let simmer for a year or so, adding "gradeflation" and "market grading" occasionally. Serves 91,000.
if you'd punctuate and capitalize, however, (yeah, look who's typing), perhaps you wouldn't be so horribly misunderstood...
z
ps. thanks for the hypothetical, in any case.
buying that coin?
do you think anaconda cannot grade? do u think anaconda knows
that the coin is AU and really does not care since it is now slabbed
MS?
another dealer profiting from grade inflation?
it does not matter to me if he did not doctor the coin or have it
regraded. the snake is the end part of this equation, the dealer selling it.
aware of its history? i am sure of it. after all, the snake is an expert.
this is why coin collecting is getting a bad name.
if someone pays his asking price, gets the coin reviewed by an expert
will the expert tell them you just bought an AU for MS, thus taking a huge
loss? should not a dealer watch out for their clients?
you think anaconda will refuse the amount he is asking saying look at
this thread and please then make an offer?
lol, this hobby is coocoo.
That coin had a bath. When are people gonna realize that the TPG's are the ones responsible for this stuff happening.
Luster, Luster, Luster. People want Luster.....well they're getting it. But, at what price?
All I can think of is Laura taliking about Wannabe's.
<< <i>
<< <i>And, I am in no way saying Anaconda "did" anything. They probably just bought it after someone made the "score." >>
I have no doubt that they bought it after it landed in an NGC holder, and I also don't think they knew the history of the coin.
Russ, NCNE >>
If I had the spare change, it would look great in my Dansco.
If it was dipped/celaned or whatever it looks improved in my eyes.
Gradeflation maybe, but that is one heck of a coin.
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
Join the NRA and protect YOUR right to keep and bear arms
To protest against all hunting of game is a sign of softness of head, not soundness of heart. Theodore Roosevelt
[L]http://www.ourfallensoldier.com/ThompsonMichaelE_MemorialPage.html[L]
<< <i>The coin can be graded whatever between AU and low MS, and the price on it can be whatever between AU and low MS. All that matters is that coin is simply a breathtaking piece of history.
Someone paid nearly 300% more for this coin than others auctioned before ..so this buyer already had the plan to clean up !!