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The PCGS FBL Franklin Fiasco
foxxze
Posts: 361
this is a reprint of a letter written after a seasoned Franklin specialist got back a Franklin for the third time from PCGS ,trying to get the incorrect FBL designation removed from the holder ;
" what we are up against here is a standard , implemented by PCGS to protect them financialy . There is an unwritten law that for the major FBL rarities ;
once they are entombed -they stay entombed .
Take the 53-S for example ; NONE of the twenty or so graded as FBL really are ; so someone could send one in a hundred times and they would NEVER take away the FBL
designation . In doing so would only open them up to huge cash outlay`s .
It may very well be they have decided overall to let the cards fall where they may ; and most of the NFBL slabs out there will stay FBL`s !
When PCGS decided to fix the faulity FBL hole in their hull of their sinking ship - a command was given to weld a plate over the gapping hole ; and they damned the men still below decks to death by suffercation . "It`s the price we have to pay to save the ship " cried the narly Capt. Hall .
" what we are up against here is a standard , implemented by PCGS to protect them financialy . There is an unwritten law that for the major FBL rarities ;
once they are entombed -they stay entombed .
Take the 53-S for example ; NONE of the twenty or so graded as FBL really are ; so someone could send one in a hundred times and they would NEVER take away the FBL
designation . In doing so would only open them up to huge cash outlay`s .
It may very well be they have decided overall to let the cards fall where they may ; and most of the NFBL slabs out there will stay FBL`s !
When PCGS decided to fix the faulity FBL hole in their hull of their sinking ship - a command was given to weld a plate over the gapping hole ; and they damned the men still below decks to death by suffercation . "It`s the price we have to pay to save the ship " cried the narly Capt. Hall .
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Comments
The hole in the hull was visible when the men boarded. Or did PCGS paste the insert over the bell?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>this is a reprint of a letter written after a seasoned Franklin specialist >>
Or it's just you. And then the rest of the rant falls on it's face.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
But, this fellow is not following his own advice? 3 down, 97 to go.
And, I disagree that PCGS would never correct an expensive designation issue - you may recall PCGS stepped up and paid a "five figure" sum to remove "FS" from the 1960(d) Jeff holder. Case by case basis.
Wondercoin
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>"so someone could send one in a hundred times and they would NEVER take away the FBL designation"
But, this fellow is not following his own advice? 3 down, 97 to go.
And, I disagree that PCGS would never correct an expensive designation issue - you may recall PCGS stepped up and paid a "five figure" sum to remove "FS" from the 1960(d) Jeff holder. Case by case basis.
Wondercoin >>
You missed the point. There are 20 53-S in 65FBL, that's multiples of five figures. It's one thing to make a mistake with one coin, another to indicate that they don't consistently grade FBL coins.
Overall, I agree that the coins in 65FBL are problematic, though not all of them. This also creates a reverse phenomenon, especially with the 66 grade. Seems that PCGS is now looking for the perfect and obvious FBL coin before they will slab it. It likely does not exist, so I wouldn't be surprised to not see any new to the pop reports.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>I ask this respectfully but who is to say NGC is right on this and PCGS is wrong. Maybe NGC is overdoing it. Was not PCGS here first. Was there a FBL standard before PCGS came along? >>
This is the same question people on the NGC forum ask about grading toughness in general. They wonder if NGC is right and PCGS is overdoing it with stricter grading
I don't think who was here first really matters for something like this. In general, people like rarity and more rare is often associated with tougher standards, whether for technical grades or FBLs.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>I didn't miss any point. And, I am well versed in the 53(s) matter owning a lovely PCGS-65FBL myself. The Franklin FBL "fiasco" is frankly no different than the FS Jeff "fiasco" or the FB Roosie "fiasco", etc, etc - be careful, be very careful and selective on what you buy and you should be fine. There are plenty of horrible coins in every company holder and if you are a newbie without the proper professional assiatance, you will quite possibly end up with some horrible coins. This is the case whether you are collecting Franklins, Jeffs, Roosies or nearly any coin with a designation that accounts in some cases for up to 95% of the total value of the coin. Wondercoin >>
Ding! Ding! Ding!...We have a winner! Wondercoin has definitely lurched into the truth.
<< <i>I didn't miss any point. And, I am well versed in the 53(s) matter owning a lovely PCGS-65FBL myself. The Franklin FBL "fiasco" is frankly no different than the FS Jeff "fiasco" or the FB Roosie "fiasco", etc, etc - be careful, be very careful and selective on what you buy and you should be fine. There are plenty of horrible coins in every company holder and if you are a newbie without the proper professional assiatance, you will quite possibly end up with some horrible coins. This is the case whether you are collecting Franklins, Jeffs, Roosies or nearly any coin with a designation that accounts in some cases for up to 95% of the total value of the coin. Wondercoin >>
Yes, mistakes are often made but one thing for collectors to be aware of is that it seems the PCGS FBL designation simply doesn't require 4BL. If you want 4BL, don't expect the PCGS FBL designation to mean that because it doesn't, it means 3BL. It's not a question of grading variation or the occasional horrible coin, but a difference in standards. As mentioned above, it's ok to have different standards and PCGS is consistent on this.
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't miss any point. And, I am well versed in the 53(s) matter owning a lovely PCGS-65FBL myself. The Franklin FBL "fiasco" is frankly no different than the FS Jeff "fiasco" or the FB Roosie "fiasco", etc, etc - be careful, be very careful and selective on what you buy and you should be fine. There are plenty of horrible coins in every company holder and if you are a newbie without the proper professional assiatance, you will quite possibly end up with some horrible coins. This is the case whether you are collecting Franklins, Jeffs, Roosies or nearly any coin with a designation that accounts in some cases for up to 95% of the total value of the coin. Wondercoin >>
Ding! Ding! Ding!...We have a winner! Wondercoin has definitely lurched into the truth.
Perhaps, but again not the point. The original poster is suggesting that there is a TPG bias against regrading coins for FBL status. That could very well be true, and it has been my experience as well. It may end up diluting the value of FBL on the holder, which may not be such a bad thing in the end.
"...NONE of the twenty or so graded as FBL really are..."
Have you seen all twenty to verify this? My gut tells me some are NOT FBLs and this is indeed a coin that gets the benefit of the doubt. But, I would also have to think that some of them do qualify for FBL. Either way, the question is why are they not correcting the ones that are sent in for review? Do we have good photo's of the one that was sent in for review to remove the FBL, which they didn't remove it? I would be interested in seeing those.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I see your point and agree up to a point. However, I question the following statement...
"...NONE of the twenty or so graded as FBL really are..."
Have you seen all twenty to verify this? My gut tells me some are NOT FBLs and this is indeed a coin that gets the benefit of the doubt. But, I would also have to think that some of them do qualify for FBL. Either way, the question is why are they not correcting the ones that are sent in for review? Do we have good photo's of the one that was sent in for review to remove the FBL, which they didn't remove it? I would be interested in seeing those. >>
Theoretically, all the 4BL coins may have been crossed/submitted to NGC which does require 4BL to get a FBL designation.
This would be the opposite of other coins that are often crossed to PCGS.
Ronyahski seems to have read it right , but then again he`s a Franklin expert and he can see the issue firsthand .
Wondercoin makes a valid argument that a buyer need be very , VERY careful dealing in all attributed series .
And 2door brings up an excellent point : yes indeed they do ! They give out the FBL on a diffrent curve when dealing with the "S" mints .......
I kinda thought for a long time they had one single standard , and each year and mintmark had to to achieve those standards ...but this is not true
And as for the 53-S ........... I never saw one that was hands down FBL , always had to squint and use imagination .
They HAD to make good on that 60-D nickel after it got so much press it could not be ignored .
and they will ultimatly have to address the FBL issue if forced to do so ........ but in the meantime it seems impossible to get them
to remove the FBL from an undeserving Franklin of significent value.
..........that would make you one smart feller
Russ, NCNE
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>There's nothing funnier than an alt id bumping his own thread posted by his previous alt id.
Russ, NCNE >>
Dammit Russ.....you beat me to it....same thing I was going to say
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Seriously, though. I do find it concerning that something which (at least to me) is so black and white is being grayed by using a curve system. The bell lines are either full, or they aren't. If San Francisco has issues with full strikes during a given year, then there should be no coins that wouldn't be FBL from any other date or mint slabbed as such. Period. (I wish it was that simple, but obviously it isn't!)
--Christian
<< <i>Arbitrary strike designations are silly. If I were to collect such a series, I'd focus on the nicest non FBL coins I could find. Same for Mercs, Standing Libs, etc. >>
I also agree with tradedollarnut. Also, there are many BU rolls of Franklin halfs, Walker halfs and Mercury dimes from the 40's and 50's still in many people's closets. These late series coins are way over priced, never pay thousands of dollars for Franklins from the 50's and 60's. Also, Walkers and Mercurys from the 40's. All these coins are worth a dime a dozen.
It was probably some stinker from Heritage that looked a heck of a lot better from the image than held in hand. Panic stricken the savvy collector is trying to squeeze as much out of PCGS as he can to minimize his losses when he has to eat a bunch of his costs when trying to unload the eye sore.
It was purchased from the foremost leading Franklin dealer in the country where it was described as having "BOLD BELL LINES"......
iF PCGS dosn't buy back their mistakes , what do you suggest the collector do with them ? Keeping in mind -THE COIN WAS PURCHASED FROM THE TOP FRANKLIN DEALER IN THE COUNTRY AS HAVING BOLD BELL LINES
edited to add: yes- the Top Franklin Dealer did buy it from Heritage , and then sold it (to his credit) for about what he paid for it . Heritage link to coin
LOL
Lou
ANA Life-Member
<< <i>Buy the coin, not the holder
.....
what's worth the money? the coin or the insert?
>>
Now I'm confused...!!...