Bad eBay and PayPal experience

Smoker · July 19, 2007 1:19AM

I recently had a very upsetting eBay/PayPal experience. I auctioned a 2006 Silver Eagle Anniversary set which was won for $555.00.
Link to Auction

The winning bidder paid immediately and sent an arrogant email stating I should ship the item to him using overnight express. The auction reads Priority Mail with Delivery Confirmation. Insurance was advised in my auction description which the buyer claimed he didn't understand. (Because of the first email I smelled trouble and wish I could have cancelled dealing with him.)

The buyer filed a complaint with PayPal saying the item received was not as described. He said the package was opened and nothing was inside... so why did he sign for it?

For unknown reasons PayPal sided with the buyer and reversed the auction money to him. Now I am also out the set that was sent.

Has this ever happened to any of you and how did you get the situation remedied?

Buyer ID is ronniebook2 ronniebook2@aol.com

Shipping Address:

blu62vette · July 19, 2007 1:26AM

Was their any insurance on the package?

MadMarty · July 19, 2007 1:29AM

My question exactly! If there was insurance file a claim.

PerryHall · July 19, 2007 1:31AM

Insurance is to protect the seller and not the buyer.

Smoker · July 19, 2007 1:33AM

No insurance. It was offered as advisable and I asked $7.50 be paid for it.

Since posting I have read other threads and learned that PayPal always sides with the buyer. A few years ago when I had a problem not receiving coins from a seller, while PayPal was deciding the seller flew the coop and I didn't get reimbursed. From that experience and also with eBay I figured they always sided with the seller.

I will file with Better Business Bureau etc. and hope for the best. There is nothing to prevent buyers from lying and saying they didn't receive what they paid for. I thought with the signature of delivery confirmation I would be protected but PayPal didn't see it that way evidently.

compromonedas · July 19, 2007 1:34AM

.

ziggy29 · July 19, 2007 1:35AM

Sorry to hear of this.

This reads like a case study as to why the buyer's end of the deal isn't completed when they pay. For those of you who insist that the seller should always leave feedback as soon as they are paid, here's a classic example of what can go wrong.

[Edit to add: It's also a case study as to why insurance should be *required* on all significant purchases. I won't ship or sell anything over $100 without it.]

airplanenut · July 19, 2007 1:38AM

You sent a $550 package without insurance? Sorry, but you kind of deserve what happened. If the buyer lied, that's no good, but it's amazing to think you'd send a package of that value uninsured (whether or not it was required in your auction, which it should have been). Heck, at $500, everything I send goes Registered.

jobiwan115 · July 19, 2007 1:40AM

<< Sorry to hear of this.

This reads like a case study as to why the buyer's end of the deal isn't completed when they pay. For those of you who insist that the seller should always leave feedback as soon as they are paid, here's a classic example of what can go wrong. >>

Good point, Ziggy. As a buyer and not a seller, I couldn't see this perspective, and admittedly wondered why some sellers drag their feet on leaving feedback. Thanks for the clarification.

Jeff (smoker), I would make insurance a requirement in the future. As a buyer I never have a problem with paying a little extra for it - I like having recourse in case something goes wrong.

NgokLi · July 19, 2007 1:41AM

[
I will file with Better Business Bureau etc. and hope for the best. There is nothing to prevent buyers from lying and saying they didn't receive what they paid for. I thought with the signature of delivery confirmation I would be protected but PayPal didn't see it that way evidently. >>

Anything over $250.00 Paypal required Signature Confirmation at the cost of $2.20. Otherwise, They will sided with the buyer for the reason of seller didn't follow Paypal's guideline.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 19, 2007 1:46AM

Pay Pal and eBay exist for the buyer , not the seller. Their consideration is that we are peddling junk !

al410 · July 19, 2007 1:51AM

Nobody "deserves" this happening. I will say that in my opinion insurance is protection for the seller. Either make it mandatory or assume the risk. I buy and sell on ebay and as a buyer if it is optional i do not pay it. As a seller I make it mandatory or on inexpensive items I just assume the risk.

JMO

AL

MadMarty · July 19, 2007 1:56AM

For a $550 item, Insurance is a requirement and a siggy confirmation is required. If you have paid for both (if it were stated in the auction) you would be covered.

Russ · July 19, 2007 1:57AM

<< I thought with the signature of delivery confirmation I would be protected but PayPal didn't see it that way evidently. >>

There is no signature with delivery confirmation. Did you mean signature confirmation?

Russ, NCNE

pxli · July 19, 2007 2:06AM

As a seller I would include the insurance in the shipping and handling.

AnkurJ · July 19, 2007 2:11AM

I always make insurance mandatory in all auctions. I refuse to ship without it as it protects me as much as the buyer.

AJ

BigDaddyz · July 19, 2007 2:24AM

if my buyer doesn't opt for insurance (and I now make it part of my s/h to there's no option), I pay for it myself to protect myself. I know that doesn't help you now.

I have also received packages that were empty.

YOu ask "why did he sign for it"...he probably did not open it before signing...I never did until I got burned. Now I open before signing.

Coins are easy to remove from a package and seal it back up. Especially when sent in an envelope.

Bochiman · July 19, 2007 2:34AM

<< You sent a $550 package without insurance? Sorry, but you kind of deserve what happened. If the buyer lied, that's no good, but it's amazing to think you'd send a package of that value uninsured (whether or not it was required in your auction, which it should have been). Heck, at $500, everything I send goes Registered. >>

No, he did NOT "kind of deserve what happened" at all. He did nothing bad. He just wasn't as smart or learned in the art of ebay/shipping that some others are.
It is more apropos to say "it is understandable what happened", certainly not "deserved".

Sorry it happened, and good luck. Next time, make insurance mandatory and vet your buyers when you get those feelings. I had those feelings once, so far, and buyer pushed me so hard, when I wouldn't give, that he wanted to cancel the sale. I agreed and resold for a tad more to someone else.

mach19 · July 19, 2007 2:39AM

<< 

<< You sent a $550 package without insurance? Sorry, but you kind of deserve what happened. If the buyer lied, that's no good, but it's amazing to think you'd send a package of that value uninsured (whether or not it was required in your auction, which it should have been). Heck, at $500, everything I send goes Registered. >>

No, he did NOT "kind of deserve what happened" at all. He did nothing bad. He just wasn't as smart or learned in the art of ebay/shipping that some others are.
It is more apropos to say "it is understandable what happened", certainly not "deserved".

Sorry it happened, and good luck. Next time, make insurance mandatory and vet your buyers when you get those feelings. I had those feelings once, so far, and buyer pushed me so hard, when I wouldn't give, that he wanted to cancel the sale. I agreed and resold for a tad more to someone else. >>

Well Said

Kip · July 19, 2007 2:49AM

<< You sent a $550 package without insurance? Sorry, but you kind of deserve what happened. If the buyer lied, that's no good, but it's amazing to think you'd send a package of that value uninsured (whether or not it was required in your auction, which it should have been). Heck, at $500, everything I send goes Registered. >>

Sorry MIT...He did NOT deserve it. I am surprised you made that statement

segoja · July 19, 2007 2:53AM

The seller here is SOL.

Take it as a learning experience.

Maybe you can file a claim with the PO claiming mail fraud, but without any real proof, they will most likely side with the buyer.

Suggest we all block this deadbeat!

ilikebuffaloes · July 19, 2007 2:58AM

Smoker,

I feel your pain and have made mistakes with selling on eBay where I have suffered a loss.

I have learned:
-to insure packages or know that I will need to eat the loss.
-not to trust the glue on boxes. Everything gets taped!
-people get confused (taking the high road here) and need patience and explanations.
-not to send a replacement item until the original is returned.
-to back out of deals when you get that feeling you should.
-the postal service is serious about prosecuting fraud. If you suspect this is happening, report it. Make sure that the buyer takes the package to the PO and shows it to them and fill out their portion of the insurance form (if you have insurance).

I have added this bidder to my blocked list because it sounds like someone that I don't need to do busines with.

I had a bad experience turn to a good one simply by accepting a return and refunding the buyer's money. He claimed that the coins I sent came out of the capsules and were scratched. I asked him to return them and that I would give him a refund when I received them. Of course I couldn't find a scratch on them (using a microscope!) so I sold them again for more money! I also had all of the eBay and Paypal fees reversed (except maybe the listing fees) so I wasn't out much on the first deal.

Oh, and one other thing: Make sure that you get insurance and a sig confirm on returns. You might need that if there is a dispute.

Russ · July 19, 2007 3:04AM

It is an unfortunate fact that there are buyers crawling all over eBay looking for sellers who make insurance optional so they can deliberately decline it, claim a problem with delivery, and rip off the seller. That's why, from day one, insurance has never been optional in my auctions.

Russ, NCNE

johnnymondo411 · July 19, 2007 3:13AM

You all are living in LA LA Land. Insurance does not protect you from buyers fraud claims. Lets say you were selling coin A for $1000 and you ship the item with signature confirmation and insurance. Mr Buyer gets the coin, signs for it and than claims it is not coin A. You are now screwed! You can't claim insurance because the package was delivered and your money will be reversed to the buyer via "Item not as described". You also can't prove that the coin you put in the package was coin A. I will never sell a coin on eBay again. If I need to move any coins I will use the Boards here to gage interest.

I know this from 1st hand experience.

Russ · July 19, 2007 3:15AM

<< Mr Buyer gets the coin, signs for it and than claims it is not coin A. You are now screwed! You can't claim insurance because the package was delivered and your money will be reversed to the buyer via "Item not as described". >>

I've had that happen twice. In both cases, I won.

Russ, NCNE

GFourDriver · July 19, 2007 3:27AM

I always make insurance & sig confirmation mandatory on my ebay sales and don't overcharge. Now that ebay has those little stars for shipping and handling etc.... I often recieve low marks for shipping price......you can't win. But at least i'm safe.

OB

ilikebuffaloes · July 19, 2007 3:30AM

<< You all are living in LA LA Land. Insurance does not protect you from buyers fraud claims. Lets say you were selling coin A for $1000 and you ship the item with signature confirmation and insurance. Mr Buyer gets the coin, signs for it and than claims it is not coin A. You are now screwed! You can't claim insurance because the package was delivered and your money will be reversed to the buyer via "Item not as described". You also can't prove that the coin you put in the package was coin A. I will never sell a coin on eBay again. If I need to move any coins I will use the Boards here to gage interest.

I know this from 1st hand experience. >>

Well I would request that the incorrect item be returned and then pull the same scam on them. They shouldn't reverse the charges if the buyer can't prove that the incorrect item was returned. And let's face it, even taking a pic of the coin and the box is still not proof.

segoja · July 19, 2007 3:38AM

<< I've had that happen twice. In both cases, I won. >>

Russ Great point!

It would ne nice to explain to the board HOW you went about staking your claim, as it appears some folks have not been able to make a good case.

fastrudy · July 19, 2007 3:41AM

<< Mr Buyer gets the coin, signs for it and than claims it is not coin A. You are now screwed! You can't claim insurance because the package was delivered and your money will be reversed to the buyer via "Item not as described". >>

Russ, I am a little confused about your last statement. How and what did you win? Buyer kept allegedly different coin and you got to keep the money? Hard to protect yourself from an outright liar.

johnnymondo411 · July 19, 2007 3:42AM

I won my case with Paypal but lost it with the credit card chargeback. In the end it cost me because Paypal came after me.

57loaded · July 19, 2007 3:45AM

<< It is an unfortunate fact that there are buyers crawling all over eBay looking for sellers who make insurance optional so they can deliberately decline it, claim a problem with delivery, and rip off the seller. That's why, from day one, insurance has never been optional in my auctions.

Russ, NCNE >>

One of very many good things I have learned from here.

If you are unable or unwilling to eat a possible loss...insure it....!

Boom · July 19, 2007 3:52AM

It is incumbent upon the SELLER to protect himself. Signature Confirmation is required for PayPal's Seller Protection yet even the Buyers can wiggle out of situations in which Sellers have done everything by the Book.

IMHO, PayPal TAKES their percentage for being the middleman - for making things convenient, mostly for the Buyers but when it comes down to protecting Sellers, they are totally useless therefore consider the % they TAKE GONE. Print your labels out and insure thru the USPS.

I know 1 seller that did everything by the book and the buyer got away Scott-free with the merchandise AND got his money back. He used his credit card and simply stated that he did not authorize the charge. This is ONE reason why I insist on e-checks, thru PayPal, once a sale or a # of items reach a certain point.

Russ is right ... as usual. There are scumbags on BOTH sides of eBay. If you've ever made a sizeable purchase and send a US Postal Money Order or Bank Check, by all means make sure you can prove receipt of funds by the Seller.

I have to write to a Judge, right now, pertaining to one of my first transactions as a Buyer in which I sent a substantial amount to a Gallery Featured Store that just plain took my money and to this day, almost 4 years later, have not received a thing. He's already been convicted on multiple counts and is going away for a long, long time.

Russ · July 19, 2007 3:56AM

<< << Mr Buyer gets the coin, signs for it and than claims it is not coin A. You are now screwed! You can't claim insurance because the package was delivered and your money will be reversed to the buyer via "Item not as described". >>

Russ, I am a little confused about your last statement. How and what did you win? Buyer kept allegedly different coin and you got to keep the money? Hard to protect yourself from an outright liar. >>

Buyer files an "item not as described" claim on a PCGS certified coin. I responded that the buyer received exactly what was pictured in the auction. Buyer couldn't prove the item was not as described. Case closed in my favor.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · July 19, 2007 3:58AM

PS: In both cases that this has happened, the buyers were NARU'd shortly thereafter. So it was pretty obvious they were scammers.

Russ, NCNE

segoja · July 19, 2007 4:02AM

Russ,

How do you get around a buyer that claims you sent him a different coin?

Seems like that is were the real fraud is coming in. A seller sells an expensive coin, buyer claims it never made it or a lesser coin was setn. in reality, it would be impossible to prove which coin was really sent.

fastrudy · July 19, 2007 4:08AM

I agree, segoja, and it is very upsetting. Buyer can claim the package was empty and seller is SOL, even with sig. confirm. & insurance. Sellers assume a lot of responsibility, one bad buyer and you lose.

Russ · July 19, 2007 4:09AM

<< Russ,

How do you get around a buyer that claims you sent him a different coin? >>

If the buyer has signed for it, they have to prove they received a different coin. The only way they can do that is if the package is opened in front of a witness before they sign. PayPal, (as well as regular merchant processing services), make the decision based on the preponderance of the evidence. In the absence of proof to the contrary, the recipient's signature is this preponderance.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · July 19, 2007 4:18AM

<< Buyer can claim the package was empty and seller is SOL, even with sig. confirm. & insurance. >>

If the buyer claims the package was empty, they still have to prove it. In addition, the shipper files the insurance claim and the USPS investigates. Part of that investigation involves verifying the weight of the package when shipped. The post office does not take attempted fraud lightly.

Russ, NCNE

Coll3ctor · July 19, 2007 4:20AM

<< You sent a $550 package without insurance? Sorry, but you kind of deserve what happened. >>

Boom · July 19, 2007 6:10AM

Nor does the U.S Department of Justice. Anyone here remember or ever had dealings with an eBay Featured Gallery Seller/ Store back in 2003 called finalfrontier6, ran by an Al & Beth Henion?

True to form, yet another lesson was learned compliments of the School of Hard Knocks. I had just become a member on eBay. Everything was so new to me and when I saw these people had really nice items to sell and had good feedback, I checked them out as thoroughly as I could. As fate would have it a Mr Todd Rabenoldt was the supplier for finalfrontier6.

I had not yet opened a PayPal account because I had strong reservations about giving PayPal my personal checking acct# and credit card#s because, after all ... who in the world was PayPal. now that I looked back through my records, I got jacked by 2 of my first 3 eBay transactions. I was "Fresh Meat" or so these sellers thought. They took my money, ran me around and it turns out these 3 were among the worst scammers on eBay but feedback did not reflect it.

I just tried to scan the actual letter sent me by the US Dept of Justice US Attorney's Office but I am out of practice with the scanner but the Eastern District of Pennsylvania with Susan Fields, Assistant United States Attorney acting as lead prosecutor for United States vs Todd Rabenoldt NO: 06-632 is coming to a close. The defendant has pleaded Guilty guilty to multiple charges and is awaiting sentencing. Obviously these are Federal Charges relating to Internet Fraud. The Honorable Judge Jan E. DuBois, Senior Judge in Philadelphia, Pa is going to sentence him and his accomplices on 08-22-2007. So you see, Wise guys get theirs in the end. It's sad that one must protect oneself both as buyer and seller. Downright pitiful and he will be made to provide full restiution to many victims.

One for the Good guys!

notwilight · July 19, 2007 6:43AM

<< 

<< You sent a $550 package without insurance? Sorry, but you kind of deserve what happened. >>

>>

I agree. that statement shows a clear lack of understanding of how insurance works.

In this case, the seller noted that warning bells went off when he got his first communication with the buyer. That is when insurance should have become a done deal. --Jerry

08HALA20 · July 19, 2007 6:55AM

>>

In this case, the seller noted that warning bells went off when he got his first communication with the buyer. That is when insurance should have become a done deal. --Jerry >>

I just sent out a coin I sold for $110.
Normally I wouldn't have sent it insured because I had duplicates and would assume the loss.
But the buyer sent me 3 emails that spooked me and I sent it insured.
No problems.

I think Russ is correct if it was sent to confirmed address within 7 days with signature confirmation you would be covered.

Joe

Manorcourtman · July 19, 2007 9:35AM

<< You sent a $550 package without insurance? Sorry, but you kind of deserve what happened. If the buyer lied, that's no good, but it's amazing to think you'd send a package of that value uninsured (whether or not it was required in your auction, which it should have been). Heck, at $500, everything I send goes Registered. >>

That's cold dude!! He didn't deserve it by any means.

Animalkeeper · July 19, 2007 10:15AM

My thanks to all of you, and to all of these threads I have read. I am a newby to eBay auctions but all of my items end with "insurance included - signature confirmation required".

My S&H is high, and I get dinged by it in Buyer Feedback, but I don't (haven't yet at least) get screwed. Thank you.

coindeuce · July 19, 2007 10:25AM

Even though you didn't insure the package, if at the very least you had saved the U.S.P.S. tape receipt from the transaction, you would notice that it specifies the weight of the package. Since the buyer has already claimed(and I hope that you properly documented)that the package was empty, then that would be sufficient grounds for filing a complaint with the Postal Security division. Simply reconstructing the package with like contents would be very strong corroboration to the Postal authorities based on the weight shown on your receipt that you shipped what you claimed to have shipped. And if you have a receipt for the merchandise from when you aquired it, that would be additional corroboration for your complaint. Remember, mail fraud is a FEDERAL OFFENSE, regardless of wether the item was insured or not. Don't give up. Just go in the right direction.
The logical argument you should have provided when the buyer claimed "empty package" was that the contents had to have been stolen, therefore the buyer should be willing to file a police report, claiming a larceny ocurred. Isn't that quite obvious????

jessewvu · July 19, 2007 10:34AM

Long time reader, first time poster..

I learned this lesson the hard way too. The easiest box to open and remove contents are the small USPS Priority Mail boxes, (0-1096S and 0-1096L). I require insurance for all items over $50 and tape the sides for every package I send. You can get stickers that work great at ... The best part is they are free and the Post Office will deliver them for free.

I deleted some text I had here, someone thought I was "a scam" because I was trying to protect people by giving them advise....

segoja · July 19, 2007 11:08AM

Those stickers would be even nicer if they said "caught red handed" when a criminal pulled the tape off.

Obviously could never happen, but boy would it be funny.

MadMarty · July 19, 2007 11:34AM

Every package I ship out is taped, even the bubble mailers I put a tape strip over the flap. Prioirty boxes always get tape all round.

BAJJERFAN · July 19, 2007 12:01PM

<< sent an arrogant email stating I should ship the item to him using overnight express >>

Right there is the tipoff that this buyer was going to be one of those pain in the azz, difficult to deal with buttholes. You should have immediately refunded his payment and asked him to agree not to complete the transaction. Whenever you use PP be sure to cover your ass 20 ways from sunday.

30AnvZ28 · July 19, 2007 12:04PM

I didnt read anyones responses... but it did happen to me...

$2200, and I ended up eating it. Paypal sent me to collections, and I even got an attorney, and nope... still had to pay it... thats why I wont accept paypal anymore.

BAJJERFAN · July 19, 2007 12:06PM

I should email this thread to the doitbag!!

Bad eBay and PayPal experience

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