BAR Cent - Any chance its real
edfiero
Posts: 3
See attached pictures. I got this from my Grandfather about 30 years ago. He thought it was fake, but didn't know for sure. Anyone have any thoughts?
0
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President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
CCU is the expert and he has covered the subject with his usual expertise. Thanks, CCU!
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Welcome and keep posting nice ones, fake or real!!
bob
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K S
<< <i>Check here. >>
hey coin-collector-union, very nice treatise on the bogus bar-coppers. i would humbly submit however that it should be referred to as a "bar copper", not a "bar cent"
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>Check here. >>
hey coin-collector-union, very nice treatise on the bogus bar-coppers. i would humbly submit however that it should be referred to as a "bar copper", not a "bar cent"
K S >>
Good point!
<< <i>
<< <i>Check here. >>
hey coin-collector-union, very nice treatise on the bogus bar-coppers. i would humbly submit however that it should be referred to as a "bar copper", not a "bar cent"
K S >>
Breen was the only one who had a problem with the label of "Bar Cent". He felt that they should not be called a "Cent" because they were lighter in weight and traded at less than one cent. Everyone else....correct me if I am wrong....called them Bar Cent, including Crosby, Kenney and a whole list of early numismatists.
K S
On the other hand, 99% of the people who call and ask us if what they have is real refer to it as a 'Cent' - so an article on this topic might be best received if written using the terms with which the likely audience will be most familiar.
Contemporary accounts refer to them as "Bar Cents". I think Breen started the whole Bar Copper thing. I actually use both when discussing these pieces, but I prefer Cent. BTW, is it Fugio Cent or Fugio Copper? ......or just Fugio?
<< <i>Contemporary accounts refer to them as "Bar Cents". I think Breen started the whole Bar Copper thing. I actually use both when discussing these pieces, but I prefer Cent. BTW, is it Fugio Cent or Fugio Copper? ......or just Fugio? >>
here is a quote from "the New Jersey Gazette", Nov 12, 1785:
A new and curious kind of coppers have lately made their appearance in New York. The novelty and bright gloss of which keeps them in circulation. These coppers are in fact similar to Continental buttons without eyes; on the one side are thirteen stripes and on the other U.S.A., as was usual on the soldiers buttons.
however, it's certainly possible that other contemporary sources did in fact call them "cents". i should note that i did'nt intend to say that ALL contemporary sources called them "coppers"
btw, some may see this discussion of "cent" vs "copper" as a trivial argument over semantics, but its not. in order to understand the mindset of contemporary writers, the precise use & meaning of terms IS important. i believe that's why breen was so adamant about the correct use of the term (& he may well have been wrong)
K S
Like I said, I have used both designations for the Bar (insert as you wish here)s. Below is an advertisement from Mason's Coin Collectors' Magazine, June, 1890. The first column is their sell price, the right column is their buy price. How cool is that?
<< <i>Like I said, I have used both designations for the Bar (insert as you wish here)s. Below is an advertisement from Mason's Coin Collectors' Magazine, June, 1890. The first column is their sell price, the right column is their buy price. How cool is that?
AWESOME!!!
note however that 1890 would'nt be contemporary w/ the bar-thingee
hmm, wonder how many of those were slabed?
K S
Bolen's copies were done in the 1860s.
Keep in mind that Jefferson coined the term in 1784 and its use for Federal coinage was not approved until 1786. It was not a common term in the day -- pretty much everything round, brown, and semi-metallic traded hands as a <I>copper</I> in the US. In this era, coppers were 96 to a dollar in New York City. By late 1789, they were worth half of that -- in large part because of underweight "trash" like Bar coppers, Nova Constellatio coppers, and counterfeit halfpence.
I'm working on a piece of research right now -- the longest I've written in years -- that may well lead to Fugio "cents" being reassessed as "coppers." The research isn't done, nor is the writing of course, but it looks like I'm heading for them being called coppers instead of cents. The first Federal "cent" may in fact be the 1792 Birch cent.
Thanks to Dorkkarl for posting the NJ Gazette citation. FWIW, the Nova Constellatios hit NYC circulation at about the same time -- the 1783 pieces were struck at the same time as the ones that were (accurately) dated 1785.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
I have never seen the Bar Coppers referred to as cents anywhere in contemporary 18th century literature.
True. My point was that in terms of "traditional" numismatics, I recall these more often called cents. Most books seem to refer to them that way, but of course they are not contemporary to the issue of the Bar coppers. Pistareen, is it true that Wyon struck the Bars, or is that just a guess by some?
This is the first I've heard the cent vs copper debate. Like most of you I've seen it both ways, but never heard an argument for one or the other being more correct.
Regardless of which is correct, the sad part is I'll probably never own one (that goes for most of us I bet).
<< <i>Pistareen, is it true that Wyon struck the Bars, or is that just a guess by some? >>
Not only a guess, but probably not a correct one. The Bar copper would have been fairly shabby work for any of the Wyon's and there are a dozen shops in Birmingham that would have been far more likely.
Here's a Thomas Wyon production of the period:
And another:
Granted, the Bar copper had to only be so good -- it's patterned after two buttons that are elegant in their simplicity -- but that means that a far less talented engraver than Thomas Wyon could have accomplished it. Breen's typical Wyon attribution is flawed, as he seemed to use the name "Wyon" to fill in for "potentially British artist of some talent." He had absolutely no basis upon which to rest a Wyon origin. However, I think the engraver <I>was</I> in fact British.
Incidentally, he also attributed New Jersey reverse C to Wyon, which I would bet dollars to donuts was done in America.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
<< <i>Great info - not as thrilling as the 531 different 'Consortium' threads, but interesting in its own right. >>
Indeed. And those Wyon medals posted by Pistareen are pretty cool!
<< <i>Indeed. And those Wyon medals posted by Pistareen are pretty cool! >>
The "Wyon medals" are Conder tokens. The first one is the obverse of a penny token issued by a coin dealer in Middlesex named H Young. Mintage was about 2,000 and they were struck by Peter Kempson. They come both in proof and business strikes.
The second is a halfpenny token manufactured by Peter Skidmore. It was used for his own token for Middlesex 480. It was also muled with other dies to create 19 other varieties for sale to collectors and can be found cataloged under Essex (two varieties), Middlesex (17 varieties), and Warwickshire (one variety)
<< <i>I'm working on a piece of research right now -- the longest I've written in years -- that may well lead to Fugio "cents" being reassessed as "coppers." >>
hey pistareen, i'm w/ you on this one. i agre that the fugio's should not be referred to as "cents".
for me, "cent" implies that the coin in question is 1/100th of something, & i believe this would of been a accurate connotation even in the 18th century. thus, that would imply that 100 fugio coppers would comprise the equivalent of a larger denomination coin. but what would that be? i've not seen a reference to such an animal, therefore implying that "cent" would be an improper usage w/ reference to "fugio".
btw, i undestand where numisma is coming from - the word has taken on a vulgar (by which i mean common) connotation today amongst numismatists, but as discussed earlier, using terms out of context w/ how they would of been used back then confuses research & distorts context.
i look forward w/ great anticipation to the fruits of pistareen's current research.
K S
<< <i>for me, "cent" implies that the coin in question is 1/100th of something, & i believe this would of been a accurate connotation even in the 18th century. thus, that would imply that 100 fugio coppers would comprise the equivalent of a larger denomination coin. but what would that be? >>
Spanish milled dollar?
I could possibly see the use of either term for the Fugio. The Congress was quite possibly thinking of it in terms of a cent, but the term would not be familiar to the general population (since there had never been a cent before) which would think of them as either half pence or simply coppers. It would be interesting to see contemporary references to see what they did actually call them.
Bring on the research Pistareen!
<< <i>Send it in for authentication! >>
I don't mean to be a jerk, but why make this comment? The coin is clearly not genuine, and the time, effort and money to have it authenticated would be a complete waste.
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