A Hypothetical Coin Posse...

MrEureka · January 4, 2005 9:33AM

Some people think they know all about the Coin Posse. I am not one of those people. In fact, I'm nearly clueless. But for those of you that doubt that a Coin Posse could have a real impact, consider this version of the Posse:

The Coin Posse is a dealer organization. (So far, no surprises.)

The Coin Posse appoints a Board of Graders (BOG) - all dealers - to judge coins submitted for grade verification. (Again, no surprise.)

The members of the Coin Posse, all dealers, agree that if one of their retail customers ever submits a coin to the Posse for verification, and if the BOG deems the coin to be unacceptable (by whatever standards they choose to live by) - then the retailer will refund double the purchase price, plus interest. (Surprised?)

The Coin Posse will promote this arrangement to the public, creating real advantages for retailers to join the Posse. (No surprise.)

Some retailers will refuse to buy coins from wholesalers that refuse to indemnify the retailer against potential claims.

BTW, the Coin Posse doesn't need to charge much, if anything, for their services. Member dues should cover their costs.

mrearlygold · January 4, 2005 9:45AM

Andy, I spoke to John Albanese about it a number of months ago if we're talking about the same thing. Has anything happened with this "posse"? The last I heard from John was regarding the availability of an early gold coin I had and if it was for sale.

Tom

MrEureka · January 4, 2005 9:52AM

Tom - I have no idea what's going on with John and his Posse, nor do I know how he plans to make it work. My hypothetical Posse was just that: hypothetical. BTW, I proposed something very similar in 1992 and nothing came of it. (Check out the Rosen Advisory, March/April 1992.) It will be interesting to see how things play out this time.

dorkkarl · January 5, 2005 2:43AM

such a coin posse would need more than "dealer" support/participation. for some reason, your version smacks of "png".

K S

MrEureka · January 5, 2005 5:19AM

your version smacks of "png".

Karl - Do you really believe PNG members would vote for this?

Not a chance.

dorkkarl · January 5, 2005 6:45AM

no, that's not what i mean.

i mean the whole attitude of what your describing is also what's wrong w/ "png", ie an "elite" group that "protects" all us poor, dumb, stupid little collectors who don't know much & just can't fend for ourselves.

i think any plausible posse would require endorsement & participation by COLLECTORS, not just DEALERS

K S

MrEureka · January 5, 2005 8:36AM

i think any plausible posse would require endorsement & participation by COLLECTORS, not just DEALERS

Collectors WILL endorse the hypothetical Posse. Think about it. Newbie collector shops around and is offered two seemingly identical coins by two different dealers. The coins are both priced the same, but one carries the Posse's double-your-money-back guaranty. Which coin will the newbie buy?

Elcontador · January 5, 2005 10:18AM

Andy, I think that's a good idea. But realistically, I think nothing will be done until too many people lose too much money under questionable circumstances and complain too loudly to the powers that be. Then there will be some heavy-handed government regulation of our hobby that will ferrett out the worst offenders, and be a nuisance in varying degrees to everyone else.

This is what has happened to many trades / professions over the last twenty years. It seems that no industry is willing to voluntarily police itself. I'm a CPA and on the whole, we are fairly ethical group (though you wouldn't think so if you only read the newspapers). This is exactly what happened to us, though it has not affected me personally (at least not yet).

dorkkarl · January 5, 2005 9:38PM

<< Collectors WILL endorse the hypothetical Posse. Think about it. Newbie collector shops around and is offered two seemingly identical coins by two different dealers. The coins are both priced the same, but one carries the Posse's double-your-money-back guaranty. Which coin will the newbie buy? >>

well here we go again, w/ $$$ being the driving force behind your scenario! for me, i would buy from the dealer who helped me out the most, who i have the best relationship with, who i trust, etc etc. if i had a choice to buy from jack beymer or leisure-suit larry, & leisure-suit offered a TEN TIMES guarantee, i'd STILL buy from beymer, because he's a guy i know i can trust. the $$$ just isn't a useful factor for me!

why is it that time & again, it's $$$ that's the driving force behind various motives in the coin market? aren't there any collectors who see beyond the $$$ & can make decisions for other reasons???

K S

MrEureka · January 6, 2005 11:02AM

i'd STILL buy from beymer, because he's a guy i know i can trust.

Dorkkarl - That's easy for you to say. You're not a newbie. You don't have to trust anyone because you can protect yourself. You don't have to worry about buying a doctored coin because you can detect them. But a newbie is at the mercy of the dealer, other than the protection provided by a TPG. Another layer of protection from the Posse can only help. Doesn't mean the newbie isn't willing to educate himself over time. He just wants to minimize his tuition costs.

Elcontador · January 6, 2005 12:03PM

Karl, one thing that you apparently are incapable of understanding is that when it comes to coins, virtually everyone has limits as to what he or she will pay for a particular coin. We've had this discussion before.

robertpr · January 6, 2005 1:02PM

I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me such an arrangement would be of questionable legality under antitrust laws...wouldn't it?

morgannut2 · January 6, 2005 7:22PM

Dorkcarl --you AND I would still buy from Jack if only because he'll talk to you about a dumb circulated coin as long as we

want, assuming you get past the girl on the phone. The point is if I'm buying a gold coin ( which I really know zero about

and have exactly one), this group would be providing an independent insurance policy against lasering and other stuff

that my eyes aren't good enough to see anymore. Basically all they would be doing is actually supporting the PCGS and

NGC supposed guarentee----which if you read the NGC fine print is IN MY OPINION, just some junk about a coin

being "market acceptable". If there was a major surity bond and the TPGs finally cooperated, yes I'd ONLY buy from these

dealers. Why not?

zzzz · January 6, 2005 7:45PM

I think it would be a great idea. Many collectors may know a lot about their main focus in collecting be it Lincolns, Morgans or what ever. When branching out to other series I would think this would give collectors an even more sense of security. Besides, Dorkkarl just removes the coins from his slabs anyway.

dorkkarl · January 6, 2005 9:29PM

<< i'd STILL buy from beymer, because he's a guy i know i can trust.

Dorkkarl - That's easy for you to say. You're not a newbie. You don't have to trust anyone because you can protect yourself. >>

that's a good & valid point, but otoh, i would advise ANY newbie NOT to be buying high-risk level coins for a looooonnnggg time into the learning process. ie. better protection than any "guaranteed return policy" is not to be foolishly buying mega-priced coins to begin with.

there's no better way to "minimize tuition cost" then to limit the financial exposure from the beginning

look, i'm not saying that a "coin posse" type of operation wouldn't be a GREAT thing for the hobby, but i'm going by your original premise (i think) which illustrates the $financial$ aspects as the numero-uno priority. i simply DO NOT agree that any coin posse whose motives are steeped in $$$ will ever be effective. the only coin posse that i think could ever be successful is 1 that someway, somehow, is motivated primarily by THE HOBBY aspects of coins.

K S

fivecents · January 6, 2005 9:31PM

Well looks like you overgraded these coins. I am sending the posse out after you.

DrWho · January 6, 2005 10:55PM

I like the term: Koin Kops. That's just me. Posse or Kops, they do a good job, A.K.A. scumnuker.

Conder101 · January 9, 2005 3:02PM

<< The members of the Coin Posse, all dealers, agree that if one of their retail customers ever submits a coin to the Posse for verification, and if the BOG deems the coin to be unacceptable (by whatever standards they choose to live by) - then the retailer will refund double the purchase price, plus interest. (Surprised?) >>

And what happens when the BOG starts "protecting" the Posse members? (Especially since the BOG will probably be made up of Posse members.)

Dog97 · January 10, 2005 2:04AM

Got nothing to do so I post to threads about make believe topics. Posse reminds me of the joke where the Indians captured the Cowboy and he wanted to talk to his horse before the Indians tortured & killed him and he whispered into his horse’s ear “Go get the Posse” and his horse left & came back with a redhead in the saddle. Let’s call it COIN White Honkies Organization of Repaired Enviable Stuff Club instead.

MrEureka · January 29, 2005 5:27AM

And what happens when the BOG starts "protecting" the posse members?

Submissions would need to be anonymous, of course. Same as most TPG's.

roadrunner · January 29, 2005 5:40AM

Couldn't the coin posse offer up their services for a very nominal fee and attach a sticker similar to an "eagle eye?" this would impart a doubling of all the potential grades out there. Now you'd have these
12 grades for each point of MS/PF from 63 to 70:

Low end NGC
Low end PCGS
Low end Posse
ok NGC
ok PCGS
ok Posse
high end NGC
high end PCGS
high end Posse
crackout NGC
crackout PCGS
crackout Posse

Will this really make things simpler? Just asking.

roadrunner

Conder101 · January 29, 2005 7:55AM

<< Submissions would need to be anonymous, of course. Same as most TPG's. >>

Right, just like it is for the other TPGs.

dorkkarl · July 16, 2007 11:50AM

DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN?!?!?!

K S

StrikeOutXXX · July 16, 2007 11:52AM

<< Couldn't the coin posse offer up their services for a very nominal fee and attach a sticker similar to an "eagle eye?" this would impart a doubling of all the potential grades out there. >>

A ha - so it was Roadrunner's fault!!!!

IGWT · July 16, 2007 11:58AM

<< DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN?!?!?!

K S >>

Andy is a soothsayer.

A Hypothetical Coin Posse...

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