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Field cuds—are these as common as rim cuds, and mechanically how do they occur?
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
I was looking at an advertisement the other day, and the ad sought coins with cuds. The advertisement further stated that the person was interested in “cuds in the field areas only, and no rim cuds”.
Personally, whenever I think of a cud, I think of a rim cud. I did not know it was possible to have a cud in the field of a coin with no other cuds in other areas. Does anyone want to comment on the following questions:
(1) How common are pure field cuds as compared to rim cuds?
(2) What specifically causes a field cud? Is it the same as a rim cud (i.e., die failure)?
(3) For the mechanical engineers in the house-- I always assumed that the edge of the die was the weakest point, and therefore had a greater likelihood of breaking, and thus forming a cud. What does it say about the die if the cud is solely in the field and the rim remains intact?
(4) Does anyone have a picture of a coin with a field cud?
Personally, whenever I think of a cud, I think of a rim cud. I did not know it was possible to have a cud in the field of a coin with no other cuds in other areas. Does anyone want to comment on the following questions:
(1) How common are pure field cuds as compared to rim cuds?
(2) What specifically causes a field cud? Is it the same as a rim cud (i.e., die failure)?
(3) For the mechanical engineers in the house-- I always assumed that the edge of the die was the weakest point, and therefore had a greater likelihood of breaking, and thus forming a cud. What does it say about the die if the cud is solely in the field and the rim remains intact?
(4) Does anyone have a picture of a coin with a field cud?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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Comments
Internal cuds most assuredly do occur but it is my opinion that they are exponentially rarer than the typical cud that meets the edge at some point. There are dozens of cuds in the capped bust half dime series that meet the edge but very few internal cuds.
One way that an internal cud can be formed is from one internal device feature to another internal device feature. On the die these features are incuse and act much like the edge does when forming a cud.
I don't have the ability to post photos from work any longer or I'd show you a great example of this. For now the best I can do is to give you the below link which shows you the Russ Logan example of the 1835 LM3/V3a capped bust half dime. Take note on the reverse of the Logan coin between CA in AMERICA (C1/A3). There is an internal cud that develops from the bottom half of C1, extends across a short portion of the field and terminates on the left side of A3.
Link to the internal cud
I am not saying they don't happen, but they should be rare.
coin, and are not "rim cuds" only.
I don't think the ad meant "internal cuds".
Rim cuds are very common, but true cuds involved a piece of the die
that had broken off that extends into the field of the coin, and not
just on the rim edge of the die.
The book published originally by Mort Goodman, "The Design Cud" expains
in detail how a cud is made, and the diff. betwtween retained cuds, rim cuds,
etc. The book has been reprinted in various editions over the years, the most
recent issues coming from Arnold Margolis of ETCM, who still sells the book and
it's addendums with just photos of newly reported cuds.
In early halves, both occur with some regularity, although for some die marriages each can be extremely rare to somewhat common. In the capped bust half series, no cuds are known due to the engineering of the dies. These dies are tapered all the way to the face, which eliminated any cuds from forming. Die chips are quite rare for the most part in CBHs as the series progressed and metallurgy skills got better. Some somewhat common die chips in the early years of CBHs are found on late state 1807 O.113 among the stars, on the nose of 1814 O.107, and possibly some others that escape my memory. Cuds and chips are more commonly found on the smaller coins since they were struck on the same presses with correspondingly smaller surface areas to absorb the impact. I can only speculate on the cause of die chips, on some perhaps a hot spot formed, weakening a spot on the die.
Here are two chips found on a late 1814 O.107
Cladiator has it right.
Personally, I have never heard the term "field cud". We call them "internal cuds". They are more commonly found in the Three Cent Nickel and Shield Nickel series, in my experience, and with Capped Bust Half Dimes as Cladiator stated. They occur in other series as well, but not as often.
(3) For the mechanical engineers in the house-- I always assumed that the edge of the die was the weakest point, and therefore had a greater likelihood of breaking, and thus forming a cud. What does it say about the die if the cud is solely in the field and the rim remains intact?
I am not an M.E., but it is engineering 101 (from my product design days) that sharp corners are stress risers. If you were to do a finite element analysis of a die, you would see concentrations of stress at all of the sharp edges of the design (i.e. where a design feature intersects with the plane of the field). Now, consider a die that strikes a hard metal (i.e. copper-nickel planchets) and factor in that the U.S. Mint had not yet perfected the art and science of die preparation in the 1800s and you will have internal cuds, as well as rim cuds. A cud in the open field of a coin, without being attached to a design element, would be very unlikely. I have never seen such a thing.
An internal cud is more properly referred to as a die chip.
That is true, but we generally say internal cud when describing this phenomenon on major examples. For minor chips, depending on the series, nothing is usually mentioned. A good example of an internal cud is the "dropped wheat" Wheat Cents. They are very common and are technically a die chip as slumlord stated.
To Fred's point, that is a very good possibility, but the ad would have been better served to say "large cuds", imho.
Edited to add a retained cud to the right of the dentil cud on a later die state of the same marriage.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
One of the most famous and one of the biggest showstoppers in the 1921 D VAM series is the 1X. Where the die broke between the "E" and "P" on the obv
Here is a rim cud from a 1921 - D 1AQ
One might even argue that the "Scarface" and "earring" and "wing" breaks on the Peace dollars are somewhat starts of decent internal cuds due to the die breaking away from a series of die cracks.
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
A “rim cud” happens when the cows are in the barn for milking and they stand on the rim or edge of the waste line next to the milking stall while they continue to chew. If they fall off, it’s called a “dropped cud” or “cud in the crud.”
The same thing happens if you put a cow in a PVC flip and staple it shut, except the crud is a different shade of green.
Hopefully, the above is of no value.
<< <i>This is the closest I can think of for a "field cud" that is confined to the field of the coin only. This die was used to create four different varieties of 1794 cent. (See field below cap)
That's funny. I never thought about the Marred Field 94 Caps. That would be as close to a "field cud" as one could ever imagine. I always considered the Marred Field obverse to be a large die gouge (slip of a tool?), but I suppose that a large chip could have fallen out of the die due to poor metallurgy.
WB-102 Cud over the 'TAT" in STATES
field cud thread, rise from your grave!
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