Field cuds—are these as common as rim cuds, and mechanically how do they occur?

Longacre

I was looking at an advertisement the other day, and the ad sought coins with cuds. The advertisement further stated that the person was interested in “cuds in the field areas only, and no rim cuds”.

Personally, whenever I think of a cud, I think of a rim cud. I did not know it was possible to have a cud in the field of a coin with no other cuds in other areas. Does anyone want to comment on the following questions:

(1) How common are pure field cuds as compared to rim cuds?

(2) What specifically causes a field cud? Is it the same as a rim cud (i.e., die failure)?

(3) For the mechanical engineers in the house-- I always assumed that the edge of the die was the weakest point, and therefore had a greater likelihood of breaking, and thus forming a cud. What does it say about the die if the cud is solely in the field and the rim remains intact?

(4) Does anyone have a picture of a coin with a field cud?

Cladiator

Good subject Longacre.

Internal cuds most assuredly do occur but it is my opinion that they are exponentially rarer than the typical cud that meets the edge at some point. There are dozens of cuds in the capped bust half dime series that meet the edge but very few internal cuds.

One way that an internal cud can be formed is from one internal device feature to another internal device feature. On the die these features are incuse and act much like the edge does when forming a cud.

I don't have the ability to post photos from work any longer or I'd show you a great example of this. For now the best I can do is to give you the below link which shows you the Russ Logan example of the 1835 LM3/V3a capped bust half dime. Take note on the reverse of the Logan coin between CA in AMERICA (C1/A3). There is an internal cud that develops from the bottom half of C1, extends across a short portion of the field and terminates on the left side of A3.

Link to the internal cud

LanLord

Since a field cud would occur from the thickest part of the die, it would seem that there would need to be a weakness in the metal to cause it.

I am not saying they don't happen, but they should be rare.

FredWeinberg

I think by "field cuds", the ad meant proper cuds that go into the field of the
coin, and are not "rim cuds" only.

I don't think the ad meant "internal cuds".

Rim cuds are very common, but true cuds involved a piece of the die
that had broken off that extends into the field of the coin, and not
just on the rim edge of the die.

The book published originally by Mort Goodman, "The Design Cud" expains
in detail how a cud is made, and the diff. betwtween retained cuds, rim cuds,
etc. The book has been reprinted in various editions over the years, the most
recent issues coming from Arnold Margolis of ETCM, who still sells the book and
it's addendums with just photos of newly reported cuds.

slumlord98

Depends on the series; I am qualified to speak only regarding half dollars. First, "internal cuds" is a misnomer. A cud as defined by error specialists refers to an area that started with a rim to rim crack and progressed to the point where a portion of the die fell away. An internal cud is more properly referred to as a die chip. These are technical points and not of interest to most. The end result is the same, where a raised portion of metal has replaced part of the coin's design.

In early halves, both occur with some regularity, although for some die marriages each can be extremely rare to somewhat common. In the capped bust half series, no cuds are known due to the engineering of the dies. These dies are tapered all the way to the face, which eliminated any cuds from forming. Die chips are quite rare for the most part in CBHs as the series progressed and metallurgy skills got better. Some somewhat common die chips in the early years of CBHs are found on late state 1807 O.113 among the stars, on the nose of 1814 O.107, and possibly some others that escape my memory. Cuds and chips are more commonly found on the smaller coins since they were struck on the same presses with correspondingly smaller surface areas to absorb the impact. I can only speculate on the cause of die chips, on some perhaps a hot spot formed, weakening a spot on the die.

Here are two chips found on a late 1814 O.107

numisma

Cladiator has it right.

Personally, I have never heard the term "field cud". We call them "internal cuds". They are more commonly found in the Three Cent Nickel and Shield Nickel series, in my experience, and with Capped Bust Half Dimes as Cladiator stated. They occur in other series as well, but not as often.

(3) For the mechanical engineers in the house-- I always assumed that the edge of the die was the weakest point, and therefore had a greater likelihood of breaking, and thus forming a cud. What does it say about the die if the cud is solely in the field and the rim remains intact?

I am not an M.E., but it is engineering 101 (from my product design days) that sharp corners are stress risers. If you were to do a finite element analysis of a die, you would see concentrations of stress at all of the sharp edges of the design (i.e. where a design feature intersects with the plane of the field). Now, consider a die that strikes a hard metal (i.e. copper-nickel planchets) and factor in that the U.S. Mint had not yet perfected the art and science of die preparation in the 1800s and you will have internal cuds, as well as rim cuds. A cud in the open field of a coin, without being attached to a design element, would be very unlikely. I have never seen such a thing.

numisma

An internal cud is more properly referred to as a die chip.

That is true, but we generally say internal cud when describing this phenomenon on major examples. For minor chips, depending on the series, nothing is usually mentioned. A good example of an internal cud is the "dropped wheat" Wheat Cents. They are very common and are technically a die chip as slumlord stated.

To Fred's point, that is a very good possibility, but the ad would have been better served to say "large cuds", imho.

slumlord98

Here is a progression of an obverse cud, although even the latest one is still a retained cud as part of the field design still shows. As for rarity, these are three of the nine currently known to those who keep track of such things, and these are on an R5 die marriage. Edited to add- this is 1805 O.104.

slumlord98

This is what I think of as a dentil cud on an 1806 O.106. Clearly a different cause and effect for this one.


Edited to add a retained cud to the right of the dentil cud on a later die state of the same marriage.

Longacre

Wow. Some great pics and explanations. Keep them coming...

eyoung429

The Morgan series has tons of retained cuds as well as rim or denticle cuds.

One of the most famous and one of the biggest showstoppers in the 1921 D VAM series is the 1X. Where the die broke between the "E" and "P" on the obv



Here is a rim cud from a 1921 - D 1AQ



One might even argue that the "Scarface" and "earring" and "wing" breaks on the Peace dollars are somewhat starts of decent internal cuds due to the die breaking away from a series of die cracks.

slumlord98

Another found on late state 1805 O.103 is technically not a cud, but rather a large retained flake of metal that broke away as a result of a bisecting die crack. Here are the two coins considered the latest known.

RWB

A “field cud” occurs when the cows are outside chewing grass (some might say out, standing in their field) and then burp it up to chew the cud some more – kind of like crack-out people.

A “rim cud” happens when the cows are in the barn for milking and they stand on the rim or edge of the waste line next to the milking stall while they continue to chew. If they fall off, it’s called a “dropped cud” or “cud in the crud.”

The same thing happens if you put a cow in a PVC flip and staple it shut, except the crud is a different shade of green.

Hopefully, the above is of no value.

Writersblock

This is the closest I can think of for a "field cud" that is confined to the field of the coin only. This die was used to create four different varieties of 1794 cent. (See field below cap)

numisma

<< <i>This is the closest I can think of for a "field cud" that is confined to the field of the coin only. This die was used to create four different varieties of 1794 cent. (See field below cap)

>>



That's funny. I never thought about the Marred Field 94 Caps. That would be as close to a "field cud" as one could ever imagine. I always considered the Marred Field obverse to be a large die gouge (slip of a tool?), but I suppose that a large chip could have fallen out of the die due to poor metallurgy.

DoctorPaper

Here's a small internal cud on an Hibernia colonial. Sometimes called the "comet" variety. It's really more of a die chip to me than a cud.

NumisOxide

Here's a well known one for the 1842 seated halves.

WB-102 Cud over the 'TAT" in STATES

errormaven

The terms "internal cud", "interior cud", and "field cud" are verboten in the error hobby. By definition, a "cud" is a die break that includes the rim and at least a little bit of the field. A die break that has no direct connection to the rim is an "interior die break" or "internal die break". Very small ones are deservedly called "die chips". My personal rubicon is that anything under 4 sq. mm. in area is a die chip and anything larger than that is an interior die break. Others may employ a different threshold, and that's fine.

SNMAN

Edited

LanceNewmanOCC

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field cud thread, rise from your grave!
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