Should Teletrade display their reserve amounts?

RichieURich · July 11, 2007 6:52AM

I was following an auction on Teletrade the other night, and of seven lots I was following, six went unsold. Of course, the way Teletrade operates, no one knows that until the auction has concluded. It seems to me that there is a lot of churn here, along with wasted effort on the part of the bidders, who don't know whether their bids are "live" or dead in the water because they are less than the seller's reserve amount. Heritage publishes their reserves, a policy that started a year or two ago, and it doesn't seem to hurt their bidding a bit. Should Teletrade abandon their secret reserves and display their reserve amounts, or accomplish the same thing by starting the bidding on each lot at the reserve amount?

Bajajim · July 11, 2007 7:05AM

yes

mansco · July 11, 2007 7:06AM

I think they would be doing all concerned a real service if at some time during the bidding process if Teletrade ( and all auction services) would post the reserve. Both Heritage and David Lawrence do. I'm sure there have been a few instances where the coin missed meeting the reserve only because the high bidder thought that when the auction finished that he/she would have won only to find that his high bid was not high enough.

Bochiman · July 11, 2007 7:10AM

They would likely sell more.
Question...do they have an "adjustable" reserve? Ie....if it is a coin they own, and they set the reserve at $500 and someone bids $480...can they "adjust" it downward?
If not, they should really disclose their reserves...many people would likely bid a few dollars higher (or scale that for higher priced coins) if their "max" amount were close to the reserve. Would likely sell more and get higher profits.

The way it is now, they appear to want a lot of bidding frenzy as people go after each other to "not lose"....but, that's risky.

LincolnCentMan · July 11, 2007 7:10AM

Should Teletrade display their reserve amounts?

Absolutly. I can only speak for myself, but I dont even place bids ahead of time on coins b/c I dont want to tie up commited funds to something that I dont even know if I have a lagit chance of winning. Then half the time, I either forget to be at the computer right before closing, or I'm off in town doing something. I cant tell you the number of times I've clicked on teletrade closed auctions that I have bookmarked to possibliby bid on and thought, "Dang, I'd have paid more than that for that coin!"

To me, their "auction" system is self-defeating.

-David

Tesoro · July 11, 2007 7:12AM

While I agree the reserve should be posted, it is not that hard to tell if your bid is a winning bid or not. If your bid is under the reserve TT will, after some time, take the winnng bid away from you and out bid you. I have never had a problem with the reserve amount if you check an hour before end of the auction. Checking at 9PM is a bother, but it is away to see if reserve has been met.

blu62vette · July 11, 2007 7:17AM

I just wish there sight was a little more friendly for seeing the finals sales. I dotn know if I have ever not met a reserve but sometimes I notice the same coin after several auctions and have thought it would have sold in the past. I have also seen a coin that when it shows the prior sales it is showing the the same coin over and over again. When they dont meet reserve/don't sell I wish they wouldnt show it as part of the prior sale history. Rather misleading.

123cents · July 11, 2007 7:22AM

There are no reserves. There are only the "Buy Back" bids placed by the sellers.

Cladiator · July 11, 2007 7:29AM

Absolutely. Keeping reserves secret, in any format (eBay, TT, Heritage, DLRC, etc...) is not a good policy. Auctions should be completely transparent with the only exception being the personal identity of the bidders and the seller.

PerryHall · July 11, 2007 7:50AM

Teletrade should also indicate which coins are consigned and which coins they own. Of course, this will never happen.

Cladiator · July 11, 2007 7:54AM

<< Teletrade should also indicate which coins are consigned and which coins they own. >>

OKbustchaser · July 11, 2007 8:23AM

<< 

<< Teletrade should also indicate which coins are consigned and which coins they own. >>

>>

Why? No other auction house does.

wondercoin · July 11, 2007 9:14AM

I think Teletrade should reveal reserves....

just as soon as ANR, Superior, Bowers and virtually every other auction house I am aware of in the coin biz (besides Heritage) starts to do the same. Then, we can start revealing bidders max bids next!

Wondercoin

P.S. Revealing reserves can be VERY unfair to the consignors of coins. For example, knowing that a reserve is not met and a coin is going to NOT sell can result in 2 or more parties NOT bidding at all live on the floor. A coin that may have sold for $25,000 had a reserve not been revealed, may not even get the opening bid of $10,000 when agents on the floor (live) can see that the coin is actually not going to get the opening bid.

ziggy29 · July 11, 2007 10:00AM

<< P.S. Revealing reserves can be VERY unfair to the consignors of coins. For example, knowing that a reserve is not met and a coin is going to NOT sell can result in 2 or more parties NOT bidding at all live on the floor. A coin that may have sold for $25,000 had a reserve not been revealed, may not even get the opening bid of $10,000 when agents on the floor (live) can see that the coin is actually not going to get the opening bid. >>

I fail to see the problem here. If someone isn't willing to pay $25,000, they're not willing to pay $25,000. Doesn't matter whether they see the reserve up front and not bid or have it hidden, have the bidding go up to $18,000 and not sell.

I guess the only rationale for this would be if you believe that a "bidding war" could result in people losing their discipline and bidding beyond their intended maximum.

As for the question about Teletrade reserves, I think if you bid and don't meet the reserve, the high bid goes up to your high bid (but you still don't get the coin). For example, if the current high is $200 and there's a $350 reserve, if you bid $300 the high will go to $300 (or is it one increment above $300?) and the reserve still isn't met. If you have a bid that meets the reserve or "buy back," the high bid listed will be at that reserve. If I understand it correctly, anyway.

sinin1 · July 11, 2007 10:42AM

in a way they do (as far as I can tell)

it seems reserves are current high bid with 1 hour to go

with about 70% reserve with 3-4 hours to go

LickThoseStamps · July 11, 2007 11:01AM

I think all auction companies should disclose whether there is a reserve, buy-back bid, or whatever they choose to call it, on a given lot. They don't need to disclose the amount it is set at, but just that it is there.

I haven't bid on Teletrade ever since I found out the hard way that they were doing this sort of thing.

This sort of practice is market manipulation, period.

Cladiator · July 11, 2007 11:03AM

<< 

<< 

<< Teletrade should also indicate which coins are consigned and which coins they own. >>

>>

Why? No other auction house does. >>

And that's a shame. IMO, all auction houses should do this. The excuse of "no one else is doing it" doesn't cut it with me. There is a right and ethical way to conduct business and you either do it or don't, regardless of what others are doing. IMO, all current auction houses (including eBay), that I know of, are doing business in a less than right and ethical way. Does that mean they should all be shut down....no. It simply means they all have room for improvement. Some more so than others.

LickThoseStamps · July 11, 2007 11:06AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Teletrade should also indicate which coins are consigned and which coins they own. >>

>>

Why? No other auction house does. >>

And that's a shame. IMO, all auction houses should do this. >>

Legend did. I miss their auctions!

Cladiator · July 11, 2007 11:07AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Teletrade should also indicate which coins are consigned and which coins they own. >>

>>

Why? No other auction house does. >>

And that's a shame. IMO, all auction houses should do this. >>

Legend did. I miss their auctions! >>

Did being the operative word. When they were active I thought their decision to do that was admirable.

LickThoseStamps · July 11, 2007 11:10AM

<< Did being the operative word. When they were active I thought their decision to do that was admirable. >>

They still do. As soon as they work out their scheduling conflicts, their auctions should return.

Fletcher · July 11, 2007 11:11AM

I have completely stopped bidding on anything on Teletrade until they clean up their act ... however, losing my business is merely a drop in the ocean

coinpictures · July 11, 2007 11:12AM

Never gonna happen. If TT did this, they wouldn't be able to play as much shenanigans with bids as they currently do.

OKbustchaser · July 11, 2007 11:45AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Teletrade should also indicate which coins are consigned and which coins they own. >>

>>

Why? No other auction house does. >>

And that's a shame. IMO, all auction houses should do this. The excuse of "no one else is doing it" doesn't cut it with me. There is a right and ethical way to conduct business and you either do it or don't, regardless of what others are doing. IMO, all current auction houses (including eBay), that I know of, are doing business in a less than right and ethical way. Does that mean they should all be shut down....no. It simply means they all have room for improvement. Some more so than others. >>

So how is it a shame? The terms and conditions of all auction houses clearly state that the house may have a financial interest in certain lots. They also state that the auction company (or its representative) may bid.

How is this unethical? Who cares if ABC auction house owns the coin. It has zero effect on what I am willing to pay for a particular lot. I am still going to bid X.

A case can be made that not disclosing a reserve/buyback might cost the consignor because of people who might be willing to increase their max if close to a reserve but even then it makes no difference who the consignor is.

wondercoin · July 11, 2007 1:48PM

"I fail to see the problem here"

Ziggy - It is a hard problem to see, but once you see it, then it becomes clear as day.

Assume a coin is reserved for $10,000 and the reserve is revealed. Now, assume two or more bidders (or possibly even one) is prepared to pay $25,000+ for the coin. But, since the reserve is revealed, all (smart) bidders know that unless someone actually bids the $10,000 the coin will not come "into play" in the auction room. These strategic bidders can then sit (live) in the auction room and watch the coin "ding" as an unsold and then make arrangements to buy the coin for $10,000 (possibly even for a few % off in the post-sale) or directly from the original consignor to the auction for much less (where the consignor is known - and this especially the case on low pop registry material where there are only a few known big buyers). Whereas, if the coin's reserve had not been revealed and the coin opened at, say, $8,000 in the auction room, no one could assume the coin was NOT being sold that night and bidding could bring the coin to $25,000 right then and there.

I've seen this at work and I can assure you that on certain coins an owner may have to seriously weigh the benefits and burdens of having his reserve revealed at auction (depending upon the coin in question) - and it is a very good idea to enlist the services of a skilled auction dealer to help with the consignment and where and how to offer the coin.

Wondercoin

sfs2002usa · July 11, 2007 1:55PM

with TT I've had some amount of luck checking prices for equivalents on e-b and looking up values
on the pcgs price guide. Also deciding what I want to put down, keeping in mind their premium,
and shipping. Sometimes you do actually get a reasonable deal. I've never returned a coin but I have
sent back some for resale when I just don't like the coin and/or the grade. I do lose here but not a lot thankfully.

Julian · July 11, 2007 11:35PM

yes

ricko · July 12, 2007 12:06AM

IMHO.. the starting point should be the opening.... if the consignor/owner wants a minimum of X, then that is where the bidding should start... if 'customers' are willing to pay more, they will bid... of course, as Wondercoin points out... and in all cases of human activity, there are those that will work to manipulate the system, particularly the auction houses - whose business is to 'make profit'... as is the aim of all businesses. Cheers, RickO

Cladiator · July 12, 2007 12:17AM

<< So how is it a shame? >>

Because I think it would be better for all involved if they did display that information, that's all.

2ndCharter · July 12, 2007 12:21AM

Absolutely - I don't waste my time with TeleTrade anymore because of this. I'll stick with Heritage and other firms that eliminate the "guessing".

bushmaster8 · July 12, 2007 12:36AM

Yes. Absolutely yes.

mansco · July 12, 2007 1:02AM

Wondercoin,

I understand your thesis, but how does this apply to an online auction, i.e. Teletrade.

Mansco

ziggy29 · July 12, 2007 1:03AM

At the very least, they should indicate whether or not a reserve has been met.

bushmaster8 · July 12, 2007 1:05AM

That would be a good compromise .

RichieURich · July 12, 2007 2:58AM

OK, the consensus answer seems to be "YES". Now how to we convince them to change their policy in this way?

RBinTex · July 12, 2007 3:00AM

Yes. ALL auction companies should be required to.

wondercoin · July 12, 2007 3:28AM

Mansco - Less so to be sure in a setting where someone can "snipe" and win like TT.

Wondercoin

mozin · July 12, 2007 12:47PM

Teletrade's practice of gradually increasing the bid up to the buy back near closing time has caused me to waste a lot of time over the past years. Understand that there may well be absolutely no bids placed on a lot, it is only Teletrade looking like bids are being placed up to the buy7 back amount. Total bunk! I really believe Teletrade is being used to test the waters as to the current value of coins, with no intent to actually sell the coin.

It has been so long that I cannot remember the last Teletrade lot on which I placed a bid. I bid on most all the other coin auctions. Heritage is tops in my book.

Coxe · July 12, 2007 1:05PM

Unless they change the way they are programmed, the reserves are fully priced in at 3:30pm PST. From then on, it isn't a matter of bidding against a phantom. Like any other venue, only bid/pay what you feel a coin is worth based on the information you have on it or direct exposure you have had with it. Doesn't matter if it is an auction reserve. That is no less ethical than a dealer's lowest selling price. Yeah, we all like a "true auction" and all of that. TT and most others are not that and are just what they are. What would be unethical would be if TT posted an unsold reserve price as a price realized. Without naming names, there are other entities that buy coins in their auctions (perhaps some they even own) allegedly and post that sale as a real sale and a real realized price.

leothelyon · July 12, 2007 2:07PM

I personally don't like bidding against a reserve that doesn't really set a market value on a coin. Snipping does the same thing. At times Teletrade has been nothing more than an extension of a dealer's bourse table seeking out buyers to recoup their money. Remember that market values of coins are set between two or more interested buyers. The consigners of such coins who set reserves are not interested buyers.
But the problem of reastablishing a legit marketing ploy to recant funds can be a tricky business especially when the demand has dropped. I think we've all scratched are heads on this one when reselling something.

Leo

Sunnywood · July 12, 2007 2:25PM

Actually, Teletrade does disclose the reserves, they just don't say so explicitly ...

The following is based on my prior use of Teletrade - I don't know if anything has changed because I haven't used it lately. So none of this may still be correct, but I am guessing it has not changed.

Essentially, when they had an auction ending at 10:00 PM, you could place max bids up until 8:00 PM, and after that you had to bid one increment at a time. Meanwhile, their computer would automatically ratchet the "high bid" up during the day, until it finally reached one increment below the reserve at 8:00 PM. The "ratcheting" gave the appearance of active bidding.

Example: coin is reserved at $2000.
Auction starts at noon with a $400 bid.
At 2:00 PM the high bid jumps to $800.
At 4:00 PM it jumps to $1200.
At 6:00 PM it jumps to $1600.
At 8:00 PM it jumps to $1900 (next bid $2000).

So you know the reserve is $2000. However, now it is 8:00 PM, and you can only place individual bids one increment at a time. If someone else placed a max bid above the reserve prior to 8:00 PM, you will have to run up the bid one increment at a time until you are the high bidder ... then watch out for sniping.

Best,
Sunnywood

PLE · July 12, 2007 2:33PM

I don't have any problem with Teletrade's approach.

Also, I like Teletrade's format because they don't hype the coins. I'm really tired of reading descriptions with the words "gorgeous" and "wow", followed my multiple exclamation marks.

Teletrade is certainly better than eBay.

jhdfla · July 12, 2007 6:23PM

Yes.

As far as ebay, well, anything is better than ebay these days.

I too miss Legends auctions.

leothelyon · July 13, 2007 12:54PM

<< Actually, Teletrade does disclose the reserves, they just don't say so explicitly ...

The following is based on my prior use of Teletrade - I don't know if anything has changed because I haven't used it lately. So none of this may still be correct, but I am guessing it has not changed.

Essentially, when they had an auction ending at 10:00 PM, you could place max bids up until 8:00 PM, and after that you had to bid one increment at a time. Meanwhile, their computer would automatically ratchet the "high bid" up during the day, until it finally reached one increment below the reserve at 8:00 PM. The "ratcheting" gave the appearance of active bidding.

Example: coin is reserved at $2000.
Auction starts at noon with a $400 bid.
At 2:00 PM the high bid jumps to $800.
At 4:00 PM it jumps to $1200.
At 6:00 PM it jumps to $1600.
At 8:00 PM it jumps to $1900 (next bid $2000).

So you know the reserve is $2000. However, now it is 8:00 PM, and you can only place individual bids one increment at a time. If someone else placed a max bid above the reserve prior to 8:00 PM, you will have to run up the bid one increment at a time until you are the high bidder ... then watch out for sniping.

Best,
Sunnywood >>

But if I'm bidding at;
At 2:30 PM
At 4:30 PM
At 6:30 PM
I'm thinking that I'm going head to head with another bidder but yet it's really the consigner's reserve begging me to go higher. I have no way of knowing who or what I'm bidding against!
This is legalized shilling in it's worst way. Baited! When I do win an auction, I would really like to think that a market value was astablished between two or more interested bidders/parties. I want to believe that I have won an auction/coin through bidding against other bidders. And when I decide to sell that same coin later down the line, I want to be left with the feeling that there were other bidders bidding against me and that they will be there again when I sell. If I win against a reserve, when I sell, where are my competitors?

Leo

Coxe · July 13, 2007 1:05PM

<< Actually, Teletrade does disclose the reserves, they just don't say so explicitly ...

The following is based on my prior use of Teletrade - I don't know if anything has changed because I haven't used it lately. So none of this may still be correct, but I am guessing it has not changed.

Essentially, when they had an auction ending at 10:00 PM, you could place max bids up until 8:00 PM, and after that you had to bid one increment at a time. Meanwhile, their computer would automatically ratchet the "high bid" up during the day, until it finally reached one increment below the reserve at 8:00 PM. The "ratcheting" gave the appearance of active bidding.

Example: coin is reserved at $2000.
Auction starts at noon with a $400 bid.
At 2:00 PM the high bid jumps to $800.
At 4:00 PM it jumps to $1200.
At 6:00 PM it jumps to $1600.
At 8:00 PM it jumps to $1900 (next bid $2000).

So you know the reserve is $2000. However, now it is 8:00 PM, and you can only place individual bids one increment at a time. If someone else placed a max bid above the reserve prior to 8:00 PM, you will have to run up the bid one increment at a time until you are the high bidder ... then watch out for sniping.

Best,
Sunnywood >>

Not unless they changed something. Reserves have ratcheted up to full value by about 3:30pm PST. If you observe bidding activity against your bids after that, there is another active bidder. Maybe they did change that 3:30 to 5PM? I'll find out on Sunday when my lots go live.

RegistryCoin · July 13, 2007 4:02PM

Agreed. From what I've noticed, a look at the bid at 3:30 is the same as seeing the reserve (or a higher-than-reserve bid, which is rare given most bids come in towards the close), so I don't see any reason for TT to display the reserve. Even if the reserves were not obvious by 3:30, I would still see no good reason for TT to display them.

mrearlygold · July 13, 2007 10:31PM

There should definitely be more disclosure on teletrade

roadrunner · July 14, 2007 2:02AM

Agreed. I always assume I'm bidding against the house on TT. I don't bid any higher than I'm willing to pay, don't ever get dejected on losing a lot, and understand that most lots I bid on do not sell.
These days I don't bother bidding a whole lot.

roadrunner

RichieURich · July 14, 2007 2:17AM

<< Agreed. I always assume I'm bidding against the house on TT. I don't bid any higher than I'm willing to pay, don't ever get dejected on losing a lot, and understand that most lots I bid on do not sell.
These days I don't bother bidding a whole lot.

roadrunner >>

Roadrunner, you hit the nail on the head! Because of the belief that you're bidding against the house or a hidden reserve, and the knowledge that many lots will not sell, it can be a significant waste of time to bid on TT. But not hiding the reserves could change this situation for the better for bidders AS WELL AS FOR TELETRADE AND ITS CONSIGNORS.

LindeDad · July 14, 2007 2:38AM

<< OK, the consensus answer seems to be "YES". Now how to we convince them to change their policy in this way? >>

Simple nobody bid until after 5:00 PM Pacific.

Or just don't bid at all!!!

Sorry Sunnywood we will be checking for yours though>

Should Teletrade display their reserve amounts?

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