What's the difference between an MS69 Modern and MS70 Modern (answer inside...)

GoldenEyeNumismatics · July 10, 2007 1:52PM

There isn't one!

Sure, maybe an MS69 has a microscopic scuff or two, but I've seen countless PCGS "MS70" coins with tics and scuffs.

Flame away...

FLBuffaloHunter · July 10, 2007 1:54PM

PCGS Grading Standards.-

<< MS-70: Shows no imperfections under 5 power magnification. Must be 100% fully struck and have full original luster and outstanding eye appeal.

MS-69: Will show only one or two miniscule imperfections. Must be fully struck and have full original luster and eye appeal. >>

oldcameoproofsguy · July 10, 2007 3:04PM

I know that PCGS isn't too generous on business strike MS70's. Sure they give some mint set MS70's now and then, but they have only slabbed one business strike MS70 to (I believe) a 2003-P Lincoln cent ever. That's pretty stingy.

If I'm wrong about that, then just realize that I went to school in the short bus. Honestly, I did.

Bruceswar · July 10, 2007 5:59PM

with Moderns they are giving them out like candy at times it seems. Take a look at these numbers worked up and you may be shocked...

Modern Market

Gemini · July 10, 2007 7:46PM

My area of interest is collecting classics and being these that these older coins very rarely approach the grades of 69 or 70 these numbers are meaningless to me or to quote Rhett Butler "Frankly my dear I don't give a damn"

PerryHall · July 10, 2007 9:12PM

What's the difference between an MS69 Modern and MS70 Modern.

About $1,000.

fivecents · July 10, 2007 9:27PM

<< Sure, maybe an MS69 has a microscopic scuff or two, but I've seen countless PCGS "MS70" coins with tics and scuffs. >>

You've seen countless examples huh? OK post just one PCGS MS70 coin with scuffs on it.

roadrunner · July 10, 2007 9:57PM

I've yet to see a flawless coin.

roadrunner

IGWT · July 10, 2007 10:02PM

-- "What's the difference between an MS69 Modern and MS70 Modern" --

Gemineye · July 11, 2007 12:39AM

With today's market and pricing ..IMO..it is impossible for one company to call a coin MS70....!!!
WHY..?!?!....Because of the market conditions.The coin is worth thousands and thousands of dollars.If a coin is to be graded by one company as a Perfect..MS70 ..coin then let it also be graded by a board of Governers such as the ANA or such.To pass a grading scrutiny as a perfect coin and command premium dollars it should pass an extreme test to be the Best of the Best....

7Jaguars · July 11, 2007 3:28AM

I think that this whole subject is an "Emperor's New Clothes" proposition. I agree that most PCGS 70 graded coins are nice and without any significant flaws; I would not call the flaws I do see scuffs however, but with scrutiny there are many times very minor edge issues or pinpoint losses in matte surface that are very early and very minor signs of die deterioration. These can occasionally be seen with the naked eye. They are not large and not scuffs but are definately causing the coin to be less than perfect. They are so similar to some "69" pieces that I believe I could find specimens and hide the labels and people would not reliably be able to tell the difference.

Again, some are clearly better & others not. I can not see a huge premium being paid for negligable differences but am not here to block folks from spending their money on such - that 2003 cent is totally a joke in my opinion....

57loaded · July 11, 2007 3:30AM

<< I know that PCGS isn't too generous on business strike MS70's. Sure they give some mint set MS70's now and then, but they have only slabbed one business strike MS70 to (I believe) a 2003-P Lincoln cent ever. That's pretty stingy.

If I'm wrong about that, then just realize that I went to school in the short bus. Honestly, I did. >>

your bus was bigger than mine

wondercoin · July 11, 2007 3:43AM

Depends - in some cases a great deal and in other cases next to nothing.

Bear in mind that with moderns, just like classics, there are "liner" coins. And, just as a Saint can upgrade a single point (or even 2!) and add $25,000.00 value to a coin in a New York second, so too can a liner PR69DC potentially upgrade and add big value to a coin. Study a particular series (modern or classic) and get familar with what the top grade looks like - then it will all begin to make some sense.

Wondercoin

roadrunner · July 11, 2007 3:49AM

The only grade where "liners" should not exist is MS70 and PF70.
That's the top of the scale.....perfection.

To get those grades there simply cannot be any flaws, and no other coin can be any finer or a contradiction exists. Hence they all need to be perfect. Still looking for my first though.

roadrunner

compromonedas · July 11, 2007 3:52AM

<< I think that this whole subject is an "Emperor's New Clothes" proposition. I agree that most PCGS 70 graded coins are nice and without any significant flaws; I would not call the flaws I do see scuffs however, but with scrutiny there are many times very minor edge issues or pinpoint losses in matte surface that are very early and very minor signs of die deterioration. These can occasionally be seen with the naked eye. They are not large and not scuffs but are definately causing the coin to be less than perfect. They are so similar to some "69" pieces that I believe I could find specimens and hide the labels and people would not reliably be able to tell the difference.

Again, some are clearly better & others not. I can not see a huge premium being paid for negligable differences but am not here to block folks from spending their money on such - that 2003 cent is totally a joke in my opinion.... >>

I agree, this 2003 Lincoln is totally a joke!

Keith

Cladiator · July 11, 2007 3:54AM

<< What's the difference between an MS69 Modern and MS70 Modern >>

$$$

LALASD4 · July 11, 2007 3:54AM

Nothing is perfect but all grades are just a subjective opinion.

wondercoin · July 11, 2007 4:00AM

The only grade where "liners" should not exist is MS70 and PF70.
That's the top of the scale.....perfection.

Incorrect.

Wondercoin

notwilight · July 11, 2007 4:01AM

<< There isn't one!

Sure, maybe an MS69 has a microscopic scuff or two, but I've seen countless PCGS "MS70" coins with tics and scuffs. Flame away... >>

Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

As for your explanation, each series of moderns grades differently just like each series of classic coins. Those who say 70 = perfect are just looking for an argument.

--Jerry

wondercoin · July 11, 2007 4:24AM

For example, certain Mint created metal flow lines on certain moderns can appear to result in a possible microscopic imperfection at first glance. This can also create a liner coin situation (one of many situations where the liner coins exist in the 69 grade).

Wondercoin

19Lyds · July 11, 2007 5:12AM

<< As for your explanation, each series of moderns grades differently just like each series of classic coins. Those who say 70 = perfect are just looking for an argument. >>

I agree Jerry!

fastrudy · July 11, 2007 5:30AM

yes, what Jerry said!! Those who wish to equate an MS70 coin to be the most perfect coin are looking for an arguement. If that were true there would only be a population of 1 for MS70 in any given series for every date and mintmark. There is your contradiction. MS70 does not equal the most perfect of the perfect. Same is true for IF diamonds, there are many of these, not just one.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · July 11, 2007 7:22AM

<< 

<< Sure, maybe an MS69 has a microscopic scuff or two, but I've seen countless PCGS "MS70" coins with tics and scuffs. >>

You've seen countless examples huh? OK post just one PCGS MS70 coin with scuffs on it. >>

I don't have any because I don't waste my money on MS70's

cladking · July 11, 2007 8:29AM

I don't understand why some think there must be a lot less difference between an MS-69
and MS-70 modern than between an MS-64 and MS-65 classic.

It some cases it may be true that this difference is smaller because the entire issue is well
made but in most cases there is not only NO basis in fact but no MS-70's or MS-69's either.

CalGold · July 11, 2007 10:39AM

<< don't understand why some think there must be a lot less difference between an MS-69
and MS-70 modern than between an MS-64 and MS-65 classic >>

Of course there is a big difference. The higher up the grading scale you go, the better or closer to perfection the coins get, and the narrower the difference between grades becomes. Its a matter of diminishing returns. The higher up the scale you go the less improvement in quality you get for each grade point, and for your money.

CG

howards · July 11, 2007 10:53AM

The difference between MS69 and MS70 is clearly 1.

What's in question is the units. ;-)

Russ · July 11, 2007 10:59AM

Cool, an issue that's never before been discussed.

Russ, NCNE

cladking · July 11, 2007 11:12AM

<< 

<< don't understand why some think there must be a lot less difference between an MS-69
and MS-70 modern than between an MS-64 and MS-65 classic >>

Of course there is a big difference. The higher up the grading scale you go, the better or closer to perfection the coins get, and the narrower the difference between grades becomes. Its a matter of diminishing returns. The higher up the scale you go the less improvement in quality you get for each grade point, and for your money.

CG >>

Each date of each series has its own grading scale. While some dates may
lay out on something resembling a bell curve this isn't true for all. How can
anyone claim a hypothetical MS-68 bust dollar and a hypothetical MS-67 bust
dollar necessarily has a wider spread in grade than a hypothetical MS-69 clad
quarter and hypothetical MS-70 clad quarter.

Usually when people say there is no difference between an MS-69 "modern"
and a MS-70 "modern" they are talking about later date silver eagles or some
specific commem. To the graders and submitters these aren't identical even
if there's little spread in quality (and hence some overlap).

It certainly does not follow that those who submit, grade, or collect the coins
are greater fools or opportunists nor is there good reason to so frequently re-
visit the topic in its many guises.

wondercoin · July 11, 2007 1:57PM

I may not disagree with the premise that if one masters the "line" between 69 and 70 that one can master (easier) the line between any other 2 points of the grading scale (perhaps with the possible exception of the AU58 vs MS62/MS63/MS64 line - a real tough line at times).

Wondercoin

P.S. And that AU58 vs MS63 line also shows that nothing is black and white with grading - just like "perfect' vs. non-perfect coins, there is circulated vs. uncirculated coins - and upgrades often had from circulating AU58 coins becoming "uncirculated" in grade.

kiyote · July 12, 2007 12:29PM

Here's an example of a PCGS MS69-- a 2006 Platinum $25.00 coin has a gouge in the back I can't help but to stare at. Fortunately for me it's just bullion.

leothelyon · July 12, 2007 1:37PM

IMO the difference between an MS69 Modern and MS70 Modern will have alot to do with the collector and what he wants. It's ludicrous to pay a big difference between the two grades if that difference can't be readily, obviously seen in the strike, grade and eye appeal of the coin. This minsicule difference everyone's so hung up on doesn't fly in my book. Granted, a 70 should be less marked than a 69 but when held side by side, the 70 should have that extra eye appeal advantage over a 69. Why anyone would pay the extra bucks when most 70's don't look much different than the 69's is beyond me!
Take a look at the following coin for an example. ANACS graded this coin a MS66 6 Steps and Prooflike. It's hard to imagine finding a another coin for the date with as many qualities as this one displays. As a matter of fact, I'm not even looking for a better date since the odds are very thin there's a better coin out there, even in any MS68 holder. This is what I'm saying when it's up to the collector. Take away the EDS strike, toning and prooflike surfaces and what do we have, a lustrous, fully struck, virtually markfree coin! Another comes along and it has a couple of less pinpoint marks and it's graded MS70? What nonsense people play!

Leo

Joflax · July 12, 2007 2:19PM

Its all in the name on the submission form, when I submitted large numbers of direct from the mint coins 94% came back 69s , everyone else got 25-30% of their coins graded 70

fc · July 12, 2007 2:19PM

leo, you say it was graded 66 when your picture says 65.
either way, heck of a nice coin, but it is dated 1999 and i feel
the color on it is AT. Improper storage.

thanks for posting, i basically agree with you. ;-)

7Jaguars · July 12, 2007 11:33PM

kiyote - that actually graded a "69"? I have seen a lot less to cost a coin the one point. I do admit that I have seen some silver eagles that came out 69 that should have been 67 or 68, and for that matter gold as well.

This is a PCGS forum after all, but let's just say Brand X seems to return numbers in terms of percentage 70s on moderns depending on the submitter & I won't say the shopping channel that purveys this stuff or the series (do I hear presidential?) that this is showing.

BTW, does anybody know off hand the bulk rates for grading for either PCGS or NGC since they always refer to what our grading fees would be if we did it singly? I am thinking of the full run of silver eagles that are always on offer...

kiyote · July 13, 2007 5:44AM

<< kiyote - that actually graded a "69"? I have seen a lot less to cost a coin the one point. I do admit that I have seen some silver eagles that came out 69 that should have been 67 or 68, and for that matter gold as well.
>>

It is-- it's in a tenth anniversary slab, MS69. I agree with you 100%-- that's a heck of a gouge for being "so close" to perfection.

leothelyon · July 13, 2007 12:13PM

<< leo, you say it was graded 66 when your picture says 65.
either way, heck of a nice coin, but it is dated 1999 and i feel
the color on it is AT. Improper storage.

thanks for posting, i basically agree with you. ;-) >>

I must be getting old and senile, it's been graded a MS65....unbelieveable!

Leo

GUINZO1975 · July 13, 2007 12:34PM

I submitted many coins to both PCGS and NGC. Some of the coins I thought would be a 69 got a 70 and some which I believed were worthy of a 70, got a 69 grade. I think if the guys grading my coins got laid the night before, then I get a 70. If they didn't get laid the night before, then the score is a 69. Any thoughts?

QBert · July 13, 2007 8:27PM

In my opinion MS70 is a marketing objective. There is no such thing as a perfect coin.

Russ · July 14, 2007 1:41AM

<< There is no such thing as a perfect coin. >>

Perfection is not the criteria for MS70.

Russ, NCNE

ziggy29 · July 14, 2007 1:47AM

<< 

<< There is no such thing as a perfect coin. >>

Perfection is not the criteria for MS70. >>

Depends on whose criterion you use.

The old ANA standards used to call MS-70 "Perfect" uncirculated. That may have changed more recently; this was as of 15-20 years ago. But if 70 doesn't imply perfection, perhaps "perfect uncirculated" (or proof) was a bad choice of words. Maybe "Ultimate" would be more appropriate.

According to the PCGS standard for MS-70, perfection is not required (merely no blemishes or imperfections visible at a certain magnification).

I think the PCGS definition is probably more practical, or else 70 is just a "theoretical" grade which could never be achieved.

What's the difference between an MS69 Modern and MS70 Modern (answer inside...)

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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