All Gl's post has done is indicate that PCI grades with different standards than the other services. Not news, ALL of the services use different standards. If he had sent them all to ANACS they many would come back with different grades as well. Same if he had sent them all to NGC or PCGS. And all the questions about whether PCI is grading strict can also be turned around to question whether the other services are grading loose.
<< <i>I think they did, Doesn't JT Stanton sign the insert? >>
Conder101 says:
"I don't think so. I believe the signed labels are ONLY for coins that have variety attributions, and they are not all signed by JT but instead by the the expert they have associated with to examine that particular series. One of our forum members here is one of the PCI signers. The signed labels are redesigned and have the letters PCI as an underprinting that covers the entire front label."
<< <i><< Take a look at some of the PCI crap sold by high volume dealers. >>
I recently picked up a couple of 67RD PCI Lincolns off the 'bay, mostly out of curiosity to see what they actually were. Spotty 65s, not even worth a crackout. Didn't pay much for them at least, maybe $10 each. >>
Pay attention to Droopy's post. This is the reality. The fact that the OP as a small submitter got hammered is nothing new. This has been PCI's MO all along. If anybody thinks they'll suddenly now be able to run out and buy up a bunch of recently graded PCI material thinking it'll be undergraded based on the assumption that they've suddenly tightened their standards, they are going to be very disappointed.
<< <i>Pay attention to Droopy's post. This is the reality. The fact that the OP as a small submitter got hammered is nothing new. This has been PCI's MO all along. If anybody thinks they'll suddenly now be able to run out and buy up a bunch of recently graded PCI material thinking it'll be undergraded based on the assumption that they've suddenly tightened their standards, they are going to be very disappointed. >>
Probably depends at least partially on who is doing the selling. If it's someone who regularly peddles a lot of PCI material, I'm sure you're right -- probably, there's little point in even looking there. But there's a chance a few small submitters may be selling stuff they sent to PCI, so it's at least worth looking for diamonds in the rough in those cases.
<< <i>Pay attention to Droopy's post. This is the reality. The fact that the OP as a small submitter got hammered is nothing new. This has been PCI's MO all along. If anybody thinks they'll suddenly now be able to run out and buy up a bunch of recently graded PCI material thinking it'll be undergraded based on the assumption that they've suddenly tightened their standards, they are going to be very disappointed.
Russ, NCNE >>
By the same token, writing off all PCI-graded coins because of what their practices appear to have been in the past is going to mean you miss some good coins. We still don't know if they have a "preferred customer grading scale" under the current leadership, ostensibly brought in to give them more credibility, and who I don't believe would be complicit in such a scheme.
<< <i><< Pay attention to Droopy's post. This is the reality. The fact that the OP as a small submitter got hammered is nothing new. This has been PCI's MO all along. If anybody thinks they'll suddenly now be able to run out and buy up a bunch of recently graded PCI material thinking it'll be undergraded based on the assumption that they've suddenly tightened their standards, they are going to be very disappointed. >>
Probably depends at least partially on who is doing the selling. If it's someone who regularly peddles a lot of PCI material, I'm sure you're right -- probably, there's little point in even looking there. But there's a chance a few small submitters may be selling stuff they sent to PCI, so it's at least worth looking for diamonds in the rough in those cases. >>
This has always been the case, though. My concern with this discussion is that some newb might happen along and be mislead in to thinking that it's now safe to hit eBay - an essentially sight-unseen venue - and buy up what he/she thinks are undergraded bargains in PCI holders.
<< <i>By the same token, writing off all PCI-graded coins because of what their practices appear to have been in the past is going to mean you miss some good coins. We still don't know if they have a "preferred customer grading scale" under the current leadership, ostensibly brought in to give them more credibility, and who I don't believe would be complicit in such a scheme. >>
Agree as long as you treat the coin as if it were raw like any other coin in a third tier slab.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Quite a long time ago a client bought a PCI Morgan in 65 from me that he broke out and sent in to PCGS. It came back a 67. >>
Green label or gold label?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Not to sound cynical or anything, but Gi started in May, 2007 and has a grand total of 2 posts. Could this be a set-up, e.g. could he be a dealer with a sh_tload of PCI's that he is trying to inflate the value of? What person with even a MODICUM of collecting smarts would send a PCGS or NGC coin to PCI?
To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand: "A great effort was made . . . to obscure or obfuscate the truth" (Robert Conquest). To render indistinct or dim; darken: The fog obfuscated the shore.
Which Legacy is this , who's light I've dimmed ? Because a question about grading companies and how they compare to one another from a person who's never posted on a coin forum, in which we openly discuss the game of "CRACKING OUT", and the detriment the obfuscation of the population reports from both of these companies suffers; or , is it because I might try to welcome someone openly and ask a question that might help promote discussion about coins ? Which Legitimate Legacy have I so obfuscated, I ask... humbly, I might add !
I'm sorry I spelled out "This Really Obfuscates Legitimate Legacies" I meant to use the Acronym TROLL. Not you 2sides, but the guy who joined in May and has been lurking for a year.
<< <i>Not to sound cynical or anything, but Gi started in May, 2007 and has a grand total of 2 posts. Could this be a set-up, e.g. could he be a dealer with a sh_tload of PCI's that he is trying to inflate the value of? What person with even a MODICUM of collecting smarts would send a PCGS or NGC coin to PCI? >>
Good point, it really hadn't occured to me.
A lot of his Walkers are PCGS/NGC MS64 which go for around 35-50 bucks on the 'bay. Why would somone resubmit them all and pay the grading fees for coins that are worth this, especially to a TPG that has a foul reputation for overgrading and grading problem coins without disclosing it on the slab?
seems like a blatant shill for PCI; maybe an employee?
Over time I've seen that PCI is all over the place on grades, often way to high and sometimes too low. I've always had the opinion that the only way to buy coins in their slabs is see it and decide the grade. PCGS and NGC are closer to reality (my opinion from what I've seen).
I have only 2 recent PCI slabs and one is right on the grade, it's not a signature slab but I'd bet the coin coin would cross to NGC or PCGS at the same grade. But the second coin is in a new signature serries slab and it's way overgraded in my opinion. Shall I post it and see what grade people think it is and then see if everyone gets sick laughing when I show their grade?
Guess PCIs grade on this coin in a signature serries holder. Just showing the obv, the rev is similar. The pic's aren't great but just try to come up with something within reason for color and grade even after a few drinks:
Hint... in hand I say it's an AU58 mostly brown with some red.
Hey Gi, my apologies for doubting you, but one does get rather cynical in the coin field. Just for interests sakes what ever caused you to crack these Walkers from top notch TPG's to a 3rd world company? I mean I realize you said you were looking for 65's, but a 65 in a PCI slab is never going to be accepted as such by most people who you would eventually sell the coins to.
Also, do you have a close up of the 1946 (obverse and reverse)? The difference between a 64 and a 50 is fairly pronounced and should give us some clues as to what is going on.
I am not trying to boost this to make 100 for you Gi, but may I ask if you have pictures of the coins in the holders BEFORE you cracked them out ? You know how some people just won't believe it until every stone is uncovered. If you are a crack out specialist, it's possible you could have cracked several out and those tags match up , but maybe not to the coins that are in the PCI holders. I'm just entertaining all possibilities.
<< <i>I am not trying to boost this to make 100 for you Gi, but may I ask if you have pictures of the coins in the holders BEFORE you cracked them out ? You know how some people just won't believe it until every stone is uncovered. If you are a crack out specialist, it's possible you could have cracked several out and those tags match up , but maybe not to the coins that are in the PCI holders. I'm just entertaining all possibilities. >>
I suppose that's true. But a better question might be...what do we think of the grades PCI gave out here?
<< <i>I am not trying to boost this to make 100 for you Gi, but may I ask if you have pictures of the coins in the holders BEFORE you cracked them out ? You know how some people just won't believe it until every stone is uncovered. If you are a crack out specialist, it's possible you could have cracked several out and those tags match up , but maybe not to the coins that are in the PCI holders. I'm just entertaining all possibilities.
Again... Welcome,
Joe >>
I was waiting for that request to come....didn't think it would come from you, Joe, but I knew it was coming
Comments
<< <i>I think they did, Doesn't JT Stanton sign the insert? >>
Conder101 says:
"I don't think so. I believe the signed labels are ONLY for coins that have variety attributions, and they are not all signed by JT but instead by the the expert they have associated with to examine that particular series. One of our forum members here is one of the PCI signers. The signed labels are redesigned and have the letters PCI as an underprinting that covers the entire front label."
<< <i>It looks like it is time to start looking at PCI again. >>
Go right ahead, but leave me out.
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<< <i><< Take a look at some of the PCI crap sold by high volume dealers. >>
I recently picked up a couple of 67RD PCI Lincolns off the 'bay, mostly out of curiosity to see what they actually were. Spotty 65s, not even worth a crackout. Didn't pay much for them at least, maybe $10 each. >>
Pay attention to Droopy's post. This is the reality. The fact that the OP as a small submitter got hammered is nothing new. This has been PCI's MO all along. If anybody thinks they'll suddenly now be able to run out and buy up a bunch of recently graded PCI material thinking it'll be undergraded based on the assumption that they've suddenly tightened their standards, they are going to be very disappointed.
Russ, NCNE
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Pay attention to Droopy's post. This is the reality. The fact that the OP as a small submitter got hammered is nothing new. This has been PCI's MO all along. If anybody thinks they'll suddenly now be able to run out and buy up a bunch of recently graded PCI material thinking it'll be undergraded based on the assumption that they've suddenly tightened their standards, they are going to be very disappointed. >>
Probably depends at least partially on who is doing the selling. If it's someone who regularly peddles a lot of PCI material, I'm sure you're right -- probably, there's little point in even looking there. But there's a chance a few small submitters may be selling stuff they sent to PCI, so it's at least worth looking for diamonds in the rough in those cases.
<< <i>Pay attention to Droopy's post. This is the reality. The fact that the OP as a small submitter got hammered is nothing new. This has been PCI's MO all along. If anybody thinks they'll suddenly now be able to run out and buy up a bunch of recently graded PCI material thinking it'll be undergraded based on the assumption that they've suddenly tightened their standards, they are going to be very disappointed.
Russ, NCNE >>
By the same token, writing off all PCI-graded coins because of what their practices appear to have been in the past is going to mean you miss some good coins. We still don't know if they have a "preferred customer grading scale" under the current leadership, ostensibly brought in to give them more credibility, and who I don't believe would be complicit in such a scheme.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i><< Pay attention to Droopy's post. This is the reality. The fact that the OP as a small submitter got hammered is nothing new. This has been PCI's MO all along. If anybody thinks they'll suddenly now be able to run out and buy up a bunch of recently graded PCI material thinking it'll be undergraded based on the assumption that they've suddenly tightened their standards, they are going to be very disappointed. >>
Probably depends at least partially on who is doing the selling. If it's someone who regularly peddles a lot of PCI material, I'm sure you're right -- probably, there's little point in even looking there. But there's a chance a few small submitters may be selling stuff they sent to PCI, so it's at least worth looking for diamonds in the rough in those cases. >>
This has always been the case, though. My concern with this discussion is that some newb might happen along and be mislead in to thinking that it's now safe to hit eBay - an essentially sight-unseen venue - and buy up what he/she thinks are undergraded bargains in PCI holders.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>By the same token, writing off all PCI-graded coins because of what their practices appear to have been in the past is going to mean you miss some good coins. We still don't know if they have a "preferred customer grading scale" under the current leadership, ostensibly brought in to give them more credibility, and who I don't believe would be complicit in such a scheme. >>
Agree as long as you treat the coin as if it were raw like any other coin in a third tier slab.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
Is it possible a first time poster gets a thread to 100 ? >>
More than half way there
<< <i>Quite a long time ago a client bought a PCI Morgan in 65 from me that he broke out and sent in to PCGS. It came back a 67. >>
Green label or gold label?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
U.S. Type Set
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>"Is it possible a first time poster gets a thread to 100?" This Really Obfuscates Legitimate Legacies >>
I was going to ask you what you meant by the use of the word : OBFUSCATE
ob·fus·cate (ŏb'fə-skât', ŏb-fŭs'kât') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. ob·fus·cat·ed, ob·fus·cat·ing, ob·fus·cates
To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand: "A great effort was made . . . to obscure or obfuscate the truth" (Robert Conquest).
To render indistinct or dim; darken: The fog obfuscated the shore.
________________________________________________________________________________
Which Legacy is this , who's light I've dimmed ? Because a question about grading companies and how they compare to one another from a person who's never posted on a coin forum, in which we openly discuss the game of "CRACKING OUT", and the detriment the obfuscation of the population reports from both of these companies suffers; or , is it because I might try to welcome someone openly and ask a question that might help promote discussion about coins ? Which Legitimate Legacy have I so obfuscated, I ask...
With sincerity and respect,
Joe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>ob·fus·cate (ŏb'fə-skât', ŏb-fŭs'kât') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. ob·fus·cat·ed, ob·fus·cat·ing, ob·fus·cates
To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand: >>
See also: First Strike™ criteria.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Not to sound cynical or anything, but Gi started in May, 2007 and has a grand total of 2 posts. Could this be a set-up, e.g. could he be a dealer with a sh_tload of PCI's that he is trying to inflate the value of? What person with even a MODICUM of collecting smarts would send a PCGS or NGC coin to PCI? >>
Good point, it really hadn't occured to me.
A lot of his Walkers are PCGS/NGC MS64 which go for around 35-50 bucks on the 'bay. Why would somone resubmit them all and pay the grading fees for coins that are worth this, especially to a TPG that has a foul reputation for overgrading and grading problem coins without disclosing it on the slab?
seems like a blatant shill for PCI; maybe an employee?
Russ, NCNE
Well without before and after pics, you never can tell if a guy got a hair cut
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
This person has posted on the currency side also, and I do not believe him to be a troll or an alt.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Man, you guys are harsh. Now, won't you feel bad if it turns out that he's just stupid?
Russ, NCNE >>
Could be...but I vote for troll.
-------------
etexmike
I concur. doesnt make a lick of sense.
<< <i>Folks, if this person really was a pro-PCI troll or spammer, I don't think they would have chosen the thread title they did... >>
Reverse Psych?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
as I once submitted to NTC - but have recently discovered, they actually have 3 grading scales
a even bigger bonus for the owner who hand selects colorful sliders and then slabs/sells them as MS65-67
it is also possible PCI has problems with walkers
unless breaking out problems, coins should grade similar at Pcgs or Ngc if owner wants them in same slab
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I have only 2 recent PCI slabs and one is right on the grade, it's not a signature slab but I'd bet the coin coin would cross to NGC or PCGS at the same grade. But the second coin is in a new signature serries slab and it's way overgraded in my opinion. Shall I post it and see what grade people think it is and then see if everyone gets sick laughing when I show their grade?
Anyone eager to try it for a laugh
Hint... in hand I say it's an AU58 mostly brown with some red.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>See? Now, don't you guys feel bad?
Russ, NCNE >>
Not as bad as Gi!
Hey Gi, my apologies for doubting you, but one does get rather cynical in the coin field. Just for interests sakes what ever caused you to crack these Walkers from top notch TPG's to a 3rd world company? I mean I realize you said you were looking for 65's, but a 65 in a PCI slab is never going to be accepted as such by most people who you would eventually sell the coins to.
Also, do you have a close up of the 1946 (obverse and reverse)? The difference between a 64 and a 50 is fairly pronounced and should give us some clues as to what is going on.
U.S. Type Set
Again...
Welcome,
Joe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I am not trying to boost this to make 100 for you Gi, but may I ask if you have pictures of the coins in the holders BEFORE you cracked them out ? You know how some people just won't believe it until every stone is uncovered. If you are a crack out specialist, it's possible you could have cracked several out and those tags match up , but maybe not to the coins that are in the PCI holders. I'm just entertaining all possibilities. >>
I suppose that's true. But a better question might be...what do we think of the grades PCI gave out here?
<< <i>I am not trying to boost this to make 100 for you Gi, but may I ask if you have pictures of the coins in the holders BEFORE you cracked them out ? You know how some people just won't believe it until every stone is uncovered. If you are a crack out specialist, it's possible you could have cracked several out and those tags match up , but maybe not to the coins that are in the PCI holders. I'm just entertaining all possibilities.
Again...
Welcome,
Joe >>
I was waiting for that request to come....didn't think it would come from you, Joe, but I knew it was coming
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>The price change in the D & S coins from 64 to 65 is up to 3X or more. >>
Not when going from a reputable grading service to PCI.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i> I cannot fathom why anyone would crack any coin out of an NGC or PCGS holder and send it to PCI. >>
"reverse pshychology" suggestion. You see how the power of suggestion works in type
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5