POLL: Buying raw coins from Stack's sight unseen, do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Russ · June 13, 2007 2:34AM

This statement was made in the now famous BigE thread:

<< Don't think your gambling much with folks like Stacks though. >>

Agree or disagree?

Russ, NCNE

ziggy29 · June 13, 2007 2:37AM

THAT coin was gambling.

Cheaper raw stuff, particularly circulated coins that look relatively original, is mostly not a big gamble.

Any high-priced coin that derives a HUGE amount of its value by slabbing at 65 instead of 64 or 63, or coins with possibly questionable color, is gambling. Doesn't mean it's a big gamble for all coins.

Russ · June 13, 2007 2:38AM

<< Cheaper raw stuff, particularly circulated coins that look relatively original, is mostly not a big gamble. >>

How many cheap circulated coins does Stacks sell?

Russ, NCNE

ebaytrader · June 13, 2007 2:39AM

Stacks is a gamble.

Julian · June 13, 2007 2:40AM

I do not recommend anyone to purchase anything where the minute details make a huge difference without first examining it.

This goes for any transaction that does not allow for a full return privilege.

Wolf359 · June 13, 2007 2:41AM

None.

Personally, I've never bought from Stacks because it's just too risky.

rhedden · June 13, 2007 2:41AM

Stacks is a slight gamble, depending on your own level of expertise. Ebay is a huge gamble for anyone.

ModernCrapNut · June 13, 2007 2:41AM

Hard to decide, either buy an ungraded coin or go to the boat.

ziggy29 · June 13, 2007 2:42AM

<< How many cheap circulated coins does Stacks sell? >>

If you define "cheap" as three figures, I've seen quite a few in their auctions. I wouldn't consider most of them a big gamble as long as you don't overpay.

Russ · June 13, 2007 2:43AM

<< << How many cheap circulated coins does Stacks sell? >>

If you define "cheap" as three figures, I've seen quite a few in their auctions. >>

I define cheap as twenty bucks.

Russ, NCNE

Higashiyama · June 13, 2007 2:44AM

If you have a relationship with a professional at Stack's, and have a thorough discussion with that person regarding a specific lot -- and the coin is question does not have a huge price spread between grades, I would agree that there is not much of a gamble.

If you are buying sight unseen based solely on a catalogue description, you are definitely taking a risk. (I would confess to having some very nice coins, and some real clunkers based on this approach)

tradedollarnut · June 13, 2007 2:44AM

<< 

<< How many cheap circulated coins does Stacks sell? >>

If you define "cheap" as three figures, I've seen quite a few in their auctions. I wouldn't consider most of them a big gamble as long as you don't overpay. >>

I bought a circulated trade dollar from a Stacks [Coin Galleries] auction years ago. When I finally got around to examining the coin out of the auction flip, I discovered it had been holed and plugged.

DUIGUY · June 13, 2007 2:51AM

<< 

<< 

<< How many cheap circulated coins does Stacks sell? >>

If you define "cheap" as three figures, I've seen quite a few in their auctions. I wouldn't consider most of them a big gamble as long as you don't overpay. >>

I bought a circulated trade dollar from a Stacks [Coin Galleries] auction years ago. When I finally got around to examining the coin out of the auction flip, I discovered it had been holed and plugged.

>>

OUCH ! That had to leave a mark !!

RYK · June 13, 2007 2:54AM

Ever since I got Stack's'ed, I will never buy a raw coin from them sight-unseen, at any price. Frankly, I will never buy a certified coin from them sight-unseen, either. I would almost go as far to say that I will never buy any coin from them again, and while this is my intention, I will probably eventually have to make an exception.

tradedollarnut · June 13, 2007 3:00AM

On the flip side, I have purchased 3 or 4 very expensive raw seated and trade dollars of great provenance from them - and they all graded out as expected. But I had a trusted representative preview the coins for me. To do any less due diligence is folly.

Cladiator · June 13, 2007 3:03AM

I've heard more than a few stories of people getting the short end of the stick when buying raw from Stacks.

PawPaul · June 13, 2007 3:07AM

Stacks or whoever ; you buy raw coins , based on a photo- or without holding them in your hand .........

you play Russian Roulette'

OKbustchaser · June 13, 2007 3:12AM

<< Stacks or whoever ; you buy raw coins , based on a photo- or without holding them in your hand .........

you play Russian Roulette' >>

Stacks or whoever; you buy ANY coins, based on a photo--or without holding them in your hand .........

you play Russian Roulette'

ziggy29 · June 13, 2007 3:24AM

<< Stacks or whoever ; you buy raw coins , based on a photo- or without holding them in your hand .........

you play Russian Roulette' >>

True to a point. But sometimes there are two bullets in the six-shooter's chamber, and sometimes there are five.

OKbustchaser · June 13, 2007 3:27AM

Yes, and with Stack's there is only one.

CommemDude · June 13, 2007 3:39AM

After buying a raw proof early Lincoln cent from Stacks that turned out not to be proof, and an early type coin that was cleaned and AU when it was listed as choice unc, I stopped playing with them several years ago.

yellowjacket · June 13, 2007 5:15AM

I'm with Julian. It's always a gamble when you buy raw (or slabbed for that matter) sight-unseen if you don't have a return policy in palce. Now if Tradedollarnut has someone who screens his coins that he can trust, that's not a gamble.

Garrow

Elcontador · June 13, 2007 5:38AM

I attended coin auctions in the pre-slabbing days. You could find some really nice coins, but you had to sift through coins which were whizzed, cleaned, plugged and in some cases, counterfeit. In this day and age, when so much of an expensive coin's value is dependent upon the consensus of experts, you need the slab as a safety net.

In a worst case scenario, if a coin is slabbed, it is deemed to be "market acceptable," and someone will buy it close to a price in line with its grade. It never ceases to amaze me that some people still buy expensive raw coins, when there are so many more attractive alternatives.

BigMoose · June 13, 2007 5:53AM

Even when you can look at the coins in person there is still an element of gambling involved. I was underbidder on a Proof Large Cent in a Stacks Auction last year. I looked at the lots personally and went over this particular Proof with a fine tooth comb. After losing out on the coin, I later found out that the winner of the coin discovered a large scratch or die defect after the coin was removed from the flip. I looked at this coin very carefully before the auction and could not find any defects, hairlines etc. when the coin was in the sealed soft flip.

dorkkarl · June 17, 2007 8:23PM

<< Buying raw coins from Stack's sight unseen, do you agree or disagree with this statement? >>

russ, big-e di NOT BUY THE COIN SIGHT UNSEEN.

was'nt aware of this poll until this morning, but i did'nt vote since part of your premise is false

K S

Connecticoin · June 17, 2007 9:17PM

<< 

<< Buying raw coins from Stack's sight unseen, do you agree or disagree with this statement? >>

russ, big-e di NOT BUY THE COIN SIGHT UNSEEN.

was'nt aware of this poll until this morning, but i did'nt vote since part of your premise is false

K S >>

If this was understood from the start, the Big E thread would likey have had 100 less posts.

dorkkarl · June 17, 2007 9:30PM

<< 

<< 

<< Buying raw coins from Stack's sight unseen, do you agree or disagree with this statement? >>

russ, big-e di NOT BUY THE COIN SIGHT UNSEEN.

was'nt aware of this poll until this morning, but i did'nt vote since part of your premise is false

K S >>

If this was understood from the start, the Big E thread would likey have had 100 less posts. >>

read thru that thread 1 more time, & you will realize pretty quickly who it was that did the most to cause the confusion. whether it was done on purpose or not, can only be speculated.

K S

LeeG · June 17, 2007 9:33PM

Anytime you buy a coin raw, based on a photo, you're taking a risk. We all hope to have more winners than losers.

dorkkarl · June 17, 2007 9:44PM

<< Anytime you buy a coin raw, based on a photo, you're taking a risk. We all hope to have more winners than losers. >>

the coin in question was bought based on a in-hand inspection

poll added here to reflect that big-e made a sight-seen in-hand purchase

K S

RYK · June 17, 2007 9:50PM

<< 

<< Anytime you buy a coin raw, based on a photo, you're taking a risk. We all hope to have more winners than losers. >>

the coin in question was bought based on a in-hand inspection

poll added here to reflect that big-e made a sight-seen in-hand purchase

K S >>

All sellers know that once the coin is in the hand of the potential buyer, there is a level of "stickiness"., whether the coin is a good coin or a bad one. Human nature is such that a buyer, once receiving a coin (as in the raw coin purchased at Stack's auction), will do whatever possible to talk himself into the coin, to validate his original opinion, and not make unnecessary waves. Most people do not want to get into a heated exchange or ruffle feathers to try to get out of the coin.

Remember, the Stack's policy is not an unconditional return policy. They state that "remote bidders may make return request..."

dorkkarl · June 17, 2007 9:53PM

<< Remember, the Stack's policy is not an unconditional return policy. They state that "remote bidders may make return request..." >>

ryk, that is correct. the terms clearly state that if you examine the coin personally, you may not return it. that is SIGHT SEEN, since obviously you looked at the coin.

terms also state that mail bidders, internet bidder, etc CAN RETURN the coin, that is to say, after you see the coin, if you do not like it (if you do not really REALLY LIKE it etc), then you CAN RETURN it, which means you did not buy it. therefore, that is also a SIGHT SEEN purchase

K S

dorkkarl · June 17, 2007 9:58PM

just to be clear, here is the policy excerpted in context, my emphasis:

except for questions of authenticity, there is no right of return for any reason whatsoever for any coin certified by any third party certification service.

there is no right of return for lots from any floor bidder or any bidder who examined the lots prior to the sale.

Mail, FAX and Internet bidders may make return requests within three days of the receipt of the lot

note that stacks does'nt promise to accept the return, but my experience is that THEY WILL.

K S

LeeG · June 17, 2007 10:38PM

<< 

<< Anytime you buy a coin raw, based on a photo, you're taking a risk. We all hope to have more winners than losers. >>

the coin in question was bought based on a in-hand inspection

poll added here to reflect that big-e made a sight-seen in-hand purchase

K S >>

We're splitting hairs here.

BigE was not present at the Auction so he was the winning bidder based on the photo Stacks provided. Hence, not sight-seen. Stacks does provide a return policy for internet bidders which allowed BigE to see the coin in-hand to make a final decision. Glad it worked out for him but too many negatives for me to collect in this manner.

edited to remove "bolding"

dorkkarl · June 17, 2007 10:44PM

any provision made to allow a buyer to commit to a coin only after examination in person results in a SIGHT SEEN transaction. there's no splitting hairs! either you get to physically examine the coins, or you do not, before the sale is final. THAT is what determines whether it's sight-seen or not.

K S

tmot99 · June 17, 2007 11:31PM

<< On the flip side, I have purchased 3 or 4 very expensive raw seated and trade dollars of great provenance from them - and they all graded out as expected. But I had a trusted representative preview the coins for me. To do any less due diligence is folly. >>

Boy, so many questions, so little time. I'll stick to the top 3.

1) Why didn't you represent yourself?

2) Why didn't you do that on the holed/plugged piece?

3) Why didn't you examine the holed/pluged piece when you got it? If there was gross misrepresentation of the coin, it may have been returnable. (I don't know the rules for that specific auction, so I can't comment for sure.)

Longacre · June 18, 2007 2:42AM

Unless I felt comfortable buying a raw coin, I would hire a professional to look at the coins for me. This applies to all auction houses, not just Stack's.

tradedollarnut · June 18, 2007 2:49AM

<< any provision made to allow a buyer to commit to a coin only after examination in person results in a SIGHT SEEN transaction. there's no splitting hairs! either you get to physically examine the coins, or you do not, before the sale is final. THAT is what determines whether it's sight-seen or not.

K S >>

<< edit -> tradedollarnut, based on just the information in my opening post, what would your answer be?

There's not enough information to definitively state one way or the other. If you knew for a fact that you could return the coin, then it's sight seen. If you have to guess, then it's sight unseen. >>

terrific answer, & i agree.

*sigh*

MrEureka · June 18, 2007 2:51AM

I do not recommend anyone to purchase anything where the minute details make a huge difference without first examining it.

This goes for any transaction that does not allow for a full return privilege.

I agree with Julian.

roadrunner · June 18, 2007 8:52AM

If you're a first time mail bidder, and the amount is not humongous, and the raw coin was not as described, you'll probably get to return it......with the proviso that there not be a "next time." I did that with Bowers in the mid-70's and they made it quite clear that after returning a bunch of overgraded swill on my first action, that I should never bid again without seeing the lots first. The auction houses do not want returns unless you are a big spender who makes it worth it for them. That doesn't apply to many, if anyone here.

roadrunner

dorkkarl · June 18, 2007 9:43PM

<< << edit -> tradedollarnut, based on just the information in my opening post, what would your answer be?

There's not enough information to definitively state one way or the other. If you knew for a fact that you could return the coin, then it's sight seen. If you have to guess, then it's sight unseen. >>

terrific answer, & i agree.

*sigh* >>

tradedollarnut, note that i DON'T have to guess. i am confident that stack's will accept returns from me, because #1 they have in the past #2 i believe their return policy as stated is legitimate. i base my bidding on stack's coins on actual experience, not on supposition.

K S

N8 · June 19, 2007 2:00AM

It sure sounds like someone works for stacks...

Nysoto · June 19, 2007 2:08AM

I have been satisfied with circulated raw coins from Stacks, but I would be leery of more expensive coins.

Russ · June 19, 2007 2:13AM

<< tradedollarnut, note that i DON'T have to guess. i am confident that stack's will accept returns from me, because #1 they have in the past #2 i believe their return policy as stated is legitimate. i base my bidding on stack's coins on actual experience, not on supposition. >>

They let you return one coin. That's meaningless.

Russ, NCNE

Artist · June 19, 2007 2:25AM

There was a thread a while back about a guy who inherreted a MCMVII high relief Saint - if I remember correctly, he took the coin to Stacks and they told him the coin was unworthy of being included in one of their auctions, but that they were willing to buy it from him outright for some lowball, 10K-ish amount. When he declined the offer, Stack's changed their tune and said they'd include the coin in an aution after all - where it sold raw for 64 shot at 65 money - however, per terms they had with the seller, they collected some percentage of the hammer price (I think 25%) in addition to the juice.

That thread made me realize just what a pillar of honesty Stack's really is -

Think about it: if Stack's would jerk a newbie around so badly, is it not safe to assume that they would manipulate their auctions in order to get top dollar for their coins? I suspect that in sure-fire cases that probably means slabbing, but in instances where coins are on the line (or worse, coins that are hiding secrets,) it probably makes sense to sell raw and to allow a buyer's hopes and sense of opportunity to make up any distance.

dorkkarl · June 19, 2007 2:32AM

<< They let you return one coin. That's meaningless. >>

russ, is it more meaningless then having attempted to return a coin ZERO times, then deducing that their return policy is bogus?

besides, from my count of board members comments who have attempted to return a coin to stacks, i counted 7 for 7. yes, that's still a miniscule %, but i have counted ZERO comments from those who've been unable to return a coin to stacks.

i am surprised you consider a fact meaningless. i honestly thought you were someone who dealt in facts, & not baseless theories or suppositions.

K S

POLL: Buying raw coins from Stack's sight unseen, do you agree or disagree with this statement?

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