Why do you collect?
GoldenEyeNumismatics
Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
I'm here to voice some opinions. Ultimately, I'm frustrated. Please note: I wrote this to fume, and I don't intent to PO anyone
I understand that people collect coins for different reasons. I, for one, collect because of the connection to history it give me. Holding an AU late-1850s Seated Half and I can connect right back to the time of the Civil War. People held and used this during the Civil War. A turn of the century Barber takes me right back there and then. This is what I crave from the hobby, and this is satisfaction I get from it.
Holding an AG coin, especially an old pocket piece, is in my mind one of the coolest things to own. Somebody carried this with them everyday. Touched it, held it, showed it to people every day for years, decades, generations. Think of the history that coin has seen. WHat it has been through. I, for one, know that for a period of time my great-grandfather had only three cents to his name (around 1910). He went on to build a successful hardware business and raised a wonderful family. He carried those three pennies with him every day for decades until they were finally robbed from him. If only those pennies could talk.
How about southern or western gold? Those gold coins were held and carried by miners themselves. Maybe it was a lucky prospector who struck it rich, or maybe it was the last bit of money held by a destitute beggar.
And you can go to a coin store and buy a penny like that for $1. Or a silver dollar like that for $15. For your miniscule investment you get a connection to decades of valuable history. That VF Southern or Western gold is going to cost you a lot less than Unc.
Here's what I'm getting at. There's really only 3 reasons people buy coins. For their artwork (or specifications), for their history, or for investment purposes (I mean non-collector investors). Investors often don't give a dam about the true history of a coin. Those who collect for the artwork tend to go on and merely complete type sets, and usually are not major collectors (except if they are collecting the early coinage). Those who collect for history usually are the big wigs.
So why do people go and pump thousands of dollars into Modern MS70 coins? It is certainly not for the artwork. A MS69 looks the same as an MS70. So you art fans out there--go buy yourself an MS69 at a fraction of MS70 cost. It certainly isn't the history in the coin, because an MS70 coin hasn't seen much. And for investment purposes? There are plenty of coins out there that are just as promising as the 20th Anniv ASE sets. So why not invest in those real coins (that's right, ASE's are not real coins, they are hyped up bullion). Additionally, those real coins are not going to have the price drop significantly once the ASE craze cools down.
Theres my rant.
Flame on
Editted:
Another thing---these "lowball" registry sets are going to drive up the price of ultra low grade coins. Am I angry about this? Sort-of. The true value of ultra low grade coins is finally being recognized, but it is for all the wrong reasons. The price will raise out of competition, not out of historical appreciation
I understand that people collect coins for different reasons. I, for one, collect because of the connection to history it give me. Holding an AU late-1850s Seated Half and I can connect right back to the time of the Civil War. People held and used this during the Civil War. A turn of the century Barber takes me right back there and then. This is what I crave from the hobby, and this is satisfaction I get from it.
Holding an AG coin, especially an old pocket piece, is in my mind one of the coolest things to own. Somebody carried this with them everyday. Touched it, held it, showed it to people every day for years, decades, generations. Think of the history that coin has seen. WHat it has been through. I, for one, know that for a period of time my great-grandfather had only three cents to his name (around 1910). He went on to build a successful hardware business and raised a wonderful family. He carried those three pennies with him every day for decades until they were finally robbed from him. If only those pennies could talk.
How about southern or western gold? Those gold coins were held and carried by miners themselves. Maybe it was a lucky prospector who struck it rich, or maybe it was the last bit of money held by a destitute beggar.
And you can go to a coin store and buy a penny like that for $1. Or a silver dollar like that for $15. For your miniscule investment you get a connection to decades of valuable history. That VF Southern or Western gold is going to cost you a lot less than Unc.
Here's what I'm getting at. There's really only 3 reasons people buy coins. For their artwork (or specifications), for their history, or for investment purposes (I mean non-collector investors). Investors often don't give a dam about the true history of a coin. Those who collect for the artwork tend to go on and merely complete type sets, and usually are not major collectors (except if they are collecting the early coinage). Those who collect for history usually are the big wigs.
So why do people go and pump thousands of dollars into Modern MS70 coins? It is certainly not for the artwork. A MS69 looks the same as an MS70. So you art fans out there--go buy yourself an MS69 at a fraction of MS70 cost. It certainly isn't the history in the coin, because an MS70 coin hasn't seen much. And for investment purposes? There are plenty of coins out there that are just as promising as the 20th Anniv ASE sets. So why not invest in those real coins (that's right, ASE's are not real coins, they are hyped up bullion). Additionally, those real coins are not going to have the price drop significantly once the ASE craze cools down.
Theres my rant.
Flame on
Editted:
Another thing---these "lowball" registry sets are going to drive up the price of ultra low grade coins. Am I angry about this? Sort-of. The true value of ultra low grade coins is finally being recognized, but it is for all the wrong reasons. The price will raise out of competition, not out of historical appreciation
0
Comments
That is the truth; there is no good reason why I like numismatics.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
I always tell folks to collect what they like and have fun. Don't borrow money to buy coins. Make sure to pay all bills before spending money on coins. Do buy what you like, not what some one else likes. Do learn how to grade. Do learn the market price, wholesale and retail for the coins you are interested in. Do spend time making contacts in order to get a better price when buying or selling. Do learn how to spot altered or enhanced coins.
I really don't understand why folks need to bash other collectors, or other dealers. However, day after day, folks come to the board with complaints. Nine times out of ten it is over what I see as the most minor of infractions or differences. The hobby is small enough without the infighting.
I believe coins are works of art. {some}.
Like art, coins peak my search for that historical moment that I relate with.
Should a work of art catch my eye; either a coin or a painting, I have this compulsion that compells me to attain it.
I pay cash and advise all never to finance either art or that treasured coin. Take Care. jws
This having been said, I agree that money spent on the classics is a safer and wiser investment, if you will. The classics are less likely to recede in value as significantly when collecting tastes of market segments change. I can see the possibility of some modern 70's losing significant value much sooner than such a loss in earlier coinage. (Disclaimer) But this is merely my opinion, opinions of others are sure to vary.
I purchased one of the lower priced 70's and made one to get my registry set in the top 20, which was my goal initially. Any further 70's in my set will come from submissions. This started when I bought a collection that had an Unc. Law Enforcement Olympics coin in it and shortly after discovered the registry. I am more of a classic collector myself but I do like the moderns as well.
I enjoy coin collecting for the variety it offers. You can get a nice little bit of history for next to nothing. There are some very nice Indian head cents available for less than $10 and I've always thought those were great looking coins. Then you can spend a few hundred or thousand on a nice gold coin, there is something for everyone here. The age of them and how long they have been around and thinking of who might have handled them interests me.
If I get serious about another regisrty set, it will be Classic commemoratives. I've always liked those.
People collect what they like, sometimes they are speculators (you didn't mention these, and speculators are NOT investors, they are gamblers who think they can make a quick buck), sometimes they are history buff's, or art lovers, or metulargists, or designers ... many collect coins for their beauty, and beauty IS in the eye of the beholder ... many collect for more than one reason ... but they collect what they like, for their reasons. Hopefully for most, the adventure and the fun in collecting is not lost on them.
You write
<< <i>Those who collect for the artwork tend to go on and merely complete type sets, and usually are not major collectors (except if they are collecting the early coinage). Those who collect for history usually are the big wigs. >>
Haha ... how long have you been collecting? How many other collectors do you know (and I mean know, not just a casual acquaintence) that have been collecting for a while? I ask, because the finest collections I know of are owned by people who collect beautiful things (not just for the art of the design), although they would seem to fall fall under your guise of the artists. They are also fortunate enough to have the money required to collect such items. I will admit that most are also appreciative of the history, even if not studious of it.
I'm personally glad that not everyone likes what I like to collect, and I appreciate a good collection of almost anything, even if I, myself have no interest in collecting the same. I'm also glad we all don't drive the same car, have the same hair style, color and where the same clothes. What a boring world that would be.
On a side note ... there are days you post about selling coins (maybe you are a dealer of some type), and days you post about collecting ... which are you? Both? How long have you been collecting? A year? Five?
I am a numismatist. I love coins for various reasons. I have for many years, and I expect I probably always will. I'm also glad I collect what I like.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Have a Great Day!
Louis
<< <i>the finest collections I know of are owned by people who collect beautiful things (not just for the art of the design), although they would seem to fall fall under your guise of the artists. They are also fortunate enough to have the money required to collect such items. I will admit that most are also appreciative of the history, even if not studious of it. >>
The fall under both the category of art collectors and those who collect for historical significance (as you've mentioned), so they enjoy the benefits and attributes of both.
<< <i>Haha ... how long have you been collecting? How many other collectors do you know (and I mean know, not just a casual acquaintence) that have been collecting for a while?
On a side note ... there are days you post about selling coins (maybe you are a dealer of some type), and days you post about collecting ... which are you? Both? How long have you been collecting? A year? Five?
I am a numismatist. I love coins for various reasons. I have for many years, and I expect I probably always will. I'm also glad I collect what I like. >>
Saying how many "collectors" I know would be difficult. I think most people here have a very large number of collectors that they are good friends with. I myself am friends with and in contact with probably about 30-50 collectors/numismatists on a monthly basis. I am friends with, on a first name basis, with many of the experts and "authorities" of respective numismatic fields.
I've been a coin collector since before I can remember. In fact, one of my first memories is reading the date from a quarter in the supermarket with my mother. I don't know why that memory has stuck with me but it has.
Although primarily a collector, I enjoy coin dealing as a sub-hobby of numismatics. Dealing allows me to enjoy coins I otherwise would not buy (because I do not like to spend much over a certain amount for coins in my personal collection). Plus, I get to make a little extra money too, which is a nice addition. However, I've been a collector for many more years than I have dealt. I like doing both, though, because it allows me see both sides of the hobby.
This thread is less about what you like to collect and more about why people pay so much for moderns. I simply don't "get" why someone would pay 4 digits for a coin with almost no historical value, when they can just as easily get an identical looking for for a minute fraction at just one grade below (and they both look the same!).
Believe me, I understand that you collect what you like. I do the same. That is what the hobby is about. I just don't understand the craze over moderns. Numismatics is a hobby of enjoyment, and it shouldn't become a competition over what the label on some piece of plastic says
<< <i>Why do you post multiple threads on the BST Forum? Just curious.
Have a Great Day!
Louis >>
one for WTB and one for WTS. For the sake of simplicity.
<< <i>This thread is less about what you like to collect and more about why people pay so much for moderns. I simply don't "get" why someone would pay 4 digits for a coin with almost no historical value, when they can just as easily get an identical looking for for a minute fraction at just one grade below (and they both look the same!). >>
While I don't understand it either, I don't understand many things people (other than myself) buy. I don't understand for example, trucks that are are really luxury cars ... or four-wheel drives that you'd be afraid to take off the road. But when it comes to coins I have specific guidelines for grades (although it's not 69/70, but then again it wasn't minted after I was borm either). At a certain point, a grade can be low enough to were I, personally, am not interested.
<< <i>Believe me, I understand that you collect what you like. I do the same. That is what the hobby is about. I just don't understand the craze over moderns. Numismatics is a hobby of enjoyment, and it shouldn't become a competition over what the label on some piece of plastic says >>
There are a lot of people that derive great enjoyment from competition. In fact, the human competitive spirit is probably a large reason reason that even long before the registry craze people tried to collect the finest they could and looked for completeness in their collections.
Although I would agree that the Modern craze, in many cases, reminds me of the dot.com bubble, it is not my concern. I rememember common-date Morgans in 65 at near $500. a pop also.
Why do I collect? Because I like to.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Modern collectors, OTOH, don't seem to be as concerned with other people's collecting interests.
Here's a different question: Why are you frustrated by how other people choose to collect?
I dont think that at all...I collect classics and moderns and i really don't care if someone else collects worn-out tires or broken watches.i collect because i like to fill albums. It is an accomplishment when it is finished.
I do not collect registry stuff or (so-called in the right plastic) MS70 moderns, bullion, or NCLT. Bob
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems like a number of classic collectors are preoccupied with what other people collect. >>
I dont think that at all...I collect classics and moderns and i really don't care if someone else collects worn-out tires or broken watches.i collect because i like to fill albums. It is an accomplishment when it is finished.
I do not collect registry stuff or (so-called in the right plastic) MS70 moderns, bullion, or NCLT. Bob >>
"A number of classic collectors" doesn't mean all of them and certainly there are a number of classic collectors that like to post their concerns on these forums. While you may not care what other people collect, it seems like the thread initiators of these types of threads and others do care, and that there are a number of them
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
That is the truth; there is no good reason why I like numismatics.
............................
Pretty much what he said. I had the interest from way back when. I do enjoy the diversion, the chase, the hunt, the capture. Also met some great folks along the way and gone to places I otherwise probably wouldn't have gone to.
When Lincoln Cents are discontinued it'll mean one less P & D pair I'll have to watch for in change.
I, for one, collect because of the connection to history it give me.
This is an interesting statement, and one that I happen to agree with. I find it fascinating to speculate about what a coin might have bought, or who might have spent it. I like to think about how our lives must be different, and yet quite similar to those who lived many years ago, etc, etc.
There's really only 3 reasons people buy coins. For their artwork (or specifications), for their history, or for investment purposes (I mean non-collector investors). Investors often don't give a dam about the true history of a coin. Those who collect for the artwork tend to go on and merely complete type sets, and usually are not major collectors (except if they are collecting the early coinage). Those who collect for history usually are the big wigs.
I think there are many, many reasons that people buy coins. I think that it takes awhile to begin to appreciate coins as artwork. An appreciation of the artwork has no relation to the type of collection, and if it did, what is the significance? Are you saying that only big wigs can appreciate true coin collecting? Are you saying that you must be a major collector in order to qualify as someone who appreciates coins? If so, I strongly disagree. I also think that an investor may very well care about the history of a coin. You are not the judge of that question, the investor is.
So why do people go and pump thousands of dollars into Modern MS70 coins? It is certainly not for the artwork.
You can't pretend not to know the answer to this question. But why do you only limit your statement to Modern MS70 coins? I submit to you that there are more big money classic coins that are grossly overpriced and sought for profit purposes than there are Modern MS70 coins that are bought for those reasons. The greed and hype factors are every bit as prominent in classics, in my opinion.
ASE's are not real coins
Now, here's a reality check. If the U.S. Government issues ASEs, AGEs, and APEs as bullion coins, then they are indeed coins. Whether or not you think that they are coins is *irrelevant*.
This thread is less about what you like to collect and more about why people pay so much for moderns. I simply don't "get" why someone would pay 4 digits for a coin with almost no historical value, when they can just as easily get an identical looking for for a minute fraction at just one grade below (and they both look the same!).
Amen to that! This thread is about why the classics you prefer are not as popular as Modern Bullion 70 coins. We agree about that much. The key to understanding high grade Registry Set pricing is identical to understanding rare classic pricing. Think about it. If I actually have to post the reasons, I will lose all faith in your ability to grasp some of the basic concepts that drive you as a collector and as a dealer. Please don't make me list them.
Believe me, I understand that you collect what you like. I do the same. That is what the hobby is about. I just don't understand the craze over moderns. Numismatics is a hobby of enjoyment, and it shouldn't become a competition over what the label on some piece of plastic says
If you understand that we all collect what we like, why all the hand-wringing over those very reasons? If I am crazy over moderns, why the concern on your part? I like them, and that's all the reason I need. Numismatics is a hobby of enjoyment, so why do you care if someone else wants to spend *their* money in a competition over the lack of a surface flaw on a perfect specimen. If it were a classic coin, I suspect that you would be fauning all over the coin, regardless of the fact that it was priced in 6 digits, instead of 4 digits (such as a high grade registry modern.)
If you still have trouble with the historical aspects of Modern collecting, just imagine Bill Clinton flipping a $5 Commem to Monica and saying, "now run along, gal."
Seriously, it sounds like you are more concerned with talking everyone out of buying moderns than anything else in your post.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>If you still have trouble with the historical aspects of Modern collecting, just imagine Bill Clinton flipping a $5 Commem to Monica and saying, "now run along, gal." >>
That modern wouldn't be an MS70 anymore though-it would have milkspots all over it
<< <i>
Here's what I'm getting at. There's really only 3 reasons people buy coins. For their artwork (or specifications), for their history, or for investment purposes (I mean non-collector investors). Investors often don't give a dam about the true history of a coin. Those who collect for the artwork tend to go on and merely complete type sets, and usually are not major collectors (except if they are collecting the early coinage). Those who collect for history usually are the big wigs.
>>
Your premise is flawed.
You can't force all collectors into your mould. Even if there were any validity
to your premise it would be absurd to say that modern coins have no artwork
(or specifications), history, or investment potential.
<< <i>Your premise is flawed.
You can't force all collectors into your mould. Even if there were any validity
to your premise it would be absurd to say that modern coins have no artwork
(or specifications), history, or investment potential. >>
I never said that. I believe that moderns have great artwork, and can be appreicated as such. Their design may reflect history, or historical events, but the coin itself (the literal piece of metal) has not seen much. I believe they do have investment potential al well. Just one of these days the bottom is going to fall out on MS70
<< <i>
... but the coin itself (the literal piece of metal) has not seen much. >>
A 1969 dime has seen decades of circulation. Incredibly, this is true circulation
where its movement is completely random unlike older coins which were remov-
ed by collectors if they were low mintage or high grade. The coin might not have
been used to get Lincoln into Ford's theater but it might have sat in Neil Armstrong's
locker as he walked on the moon. It might even have made the trip with him given
the astronauts' penchant for taking coins with them. What did they use to mark
their golf shots?
I dont judge them and hopefully they wont judge me!
collectors. I feel like like the coins need to be herded and tamed. Random move-
ment is fine for coins in circulation but what will future collectors have if all the coins
today just meet their fate in random order? How is one supposed to spot varieties
and the way coins move in circulation if he doesn't collect the coins to know what is
normal? Studying circulating issues is of far greater importance to me than artistic
merit or whether the coin marked a golf shot on the moon. The difference in the way
coins wear dependent on minor design differences is of great interest to me. The '84
quarter is far harder to find pristine than even a '72 issue because of such a subtle
difference.
Another advantage of the later coins is the ability to get first crack at them. It's not
only their availability in circulation but the fact that most dealers and collectors don't
give them a second thought. If you need a nice draped bust you can be certain that
you have to be the first one on the bourse to find one that's been passed down for
generations among collectors but you can find plenty of raw moderns which have nev-
er been rejected or even looked at by a knowledgeable collectors. There's always go-
ing to be something new and it will probably be cheap when you find it.
People tend to collect to impose order or just to have something unique since all coll-
ections, ultimately, are unique. People collect for the challenge or simply to pass the
time of day. But most of us just have the bug and have to collect something. While
one person may collect tokens just so grade isn't an issue another might collect Chuck-
E-Cheese tokens just so rarity isn't an issue.
People who collect MS/PR-70 ultra-moderns have reasons for it. They may not want
to worry about grade or they want to have a spectacular and unimprovable collectors
item. They love the designs or the theme of the issue. Some might just want to feel
they are on board a hot collectible but as with anything, this can be risky. If there are
too many speculators then eventually the market will likely fail since it lacks a real foun-
dation.
Collecting coins is a hoot and so long as people are enjoying it to a greater degree
than they are trying to make money then it doesn't really matter if they make money
or not. It's difficult for me to believe there's much speculation in moderns or in ultra-
moderns simply because there isn't a lot of the pump and dump sort of thing you see
in such markets. Sure, there have been numerous moderns which have run up and
then dropped but they always appear to be more a case of people underestimating
the availability of the coins or overestimating the demand. Collectors should always
be a little wary of the latest thing down the pike. This is doubly true when there is lit-
tle to differentiate it from something that carries no premium.
There are a lot of newbies, but more importantly, the newbies are going to be the big-
gest demographic buying coins in fifteen years. It's going to be interesting watching
their growth as collectors and seeing the growth of their collections. They are unlikely
to parallel the baby boomers but they will learn fast now that so much more informa-
tion is available.
As to your comment about history I have recently been purchasing pre-1940 coins and selling my bullion. Bullion is for those investors believing the price of the raw commodity will increase. I did very well over the past three years. Buying gold or silver coins from the 1800's and early 1900's gives you a return on the commodity as well as the numismatic value. Thinking about folks in the depression and civil war eras certainly adds to the enjoyment of this hobby.
Palm Beach Coins Website
The 2nd reason I started collecting coins was as an investment. I wanted to put my money into something interesting that would also show a decent increase in value of the long run, say 8-10 years from now. Whether that ends up being the case, we'll see. I'm neither familiar nor comfortable with investing in stocks, bonds, funds, etcetera. Wrong or right, I feel better about investing in my collection. And that's all I have to say about that.
Joe
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
AJ
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
gene2393
It's Fun !
<< <i>For me...I love this country, I love its history, and I love the history of the coins!
AJ >>
I'm with AJ on this. I collect Americana for the love of our country and our history and our culture. God bless America!!
A long time ago I found that just like cars, houses, and spouses, different people have different tastes. Not always in agreement with my own. I like the fact that some people collect modern "stuff" in which I have no interest. The wider the net, the greater the catch. It is important that numismatics have a lot of players, and the many different areas provide opportunities to draw a variety of collectors to the table.
Don't try to figure it out. It is what it is.
Garrow
I collect for the appreciation of history (as GoldenEye does) and because it appeals to my obsessive-compulsive nature.
The same reason I climb mountains "Because they're there".
Realy, I couldn't stand all the second hand smoke in the casinos anymore so I decided instead of loosing money I would start collecting money!
I collect for several reasons as follows:
The knowledge you can gain!
Future estate tax planning purposes.
A relaxing hobby which is financially rewarding
to yourself and your heirs in time.
An investment you can hold and enjoy for years to come !
<< <i>I collect because I suffer from OCD (Obsessive-compulsive disorder)
AL
<< <i>I collect for the appreciation of history (as GoldenEye does) and because it appeals to my obsessive-compulsive nature. >>
Me too!
It's fascinating to hold a coin from the 18th or even 17th century in my hand (albeit in a TPG holder). The connection with history is awe inspiring. The stories associated with these coins are extremely interesting. Besides, it's just fun!
Plus a little OCD.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
It's somewhere between an obsetion and an addiction.
-David
1) Listed above.
2) Listed above.
3) The satisfaction of completing a really tough set.
4) The satisfaction of finding the perfect coin to fill that hole.
5) Sharing the viewing of my collection with good collector friends.
6) Investment (I'd like to say that I ignore this, but once my collection exceeded the value of a decent used car... have to concider this)
7) Art work (yes, I do consider them works of art.)
8) Connection to history... but for me, it's more date specific on these.
9) My savings account.
10) Refer to the first two reasons I listed.