<< <i>Belle was not a troublemaker!!!(except for maybe egging those kids!, but what would you do if someone messed with your personal property?) ask every teammate he had!!! he was one of the best clubhouse guys there was!!! i even percieved him as an a-hole, but believe me.....when i went to spring training to see my buddy, in a white sox uni, in tucson this guy was awesome!!!! albert was a true teammate!!!! and you can ask anyone who has played with him!!! >>
I'm sorry, but I hope no one read and actually believed that; its by far the most incorrect and misleading statement I have seen on this board. I'm a Diehard Tribe Fan, but I will always tell the truth ~ and you really cant find a much worse person than "Joey" Belle...
A) 1987 Rushes stands to fight with fans at LSU 1990 Forced into Cleveland Clinic and suspended 5 games after destroying a sink in Colorado Springs (This is when "Dont call me Joey” began) C) 1990 Belle is kicked out of Puerto Rican Winter League for fighting, throwing temper tantrums and being a distraction D) 1991 Pegs a fan in Cleveland with a fastball for heckling him. Leaves welt on fans chest. 6 game suspension and fine. E) 1991 Demoted to AAA for not running out pop-ups and attitude problems by McNamara F) 1992 Suspended 3 games for rushing mound on Neal Heaton G) 1993 benched by Hargrove for lack of hustle H) 1993 suspended three games for rushing the mound on Hipolito Pichardo I) 1993 Calls security to silence fans who are taunting him by yelling "Joey" from LF ~ this is classic, why didnt "Darryl" ever try that J) 1993 Cops are called after Belle gets into a fight with Orioles fan at billiards club; fan has cuts on face which Belle denies physical confrontation K) 1994 "BatGate", Grimsley of course crawled through vents to replace Belles corked bat ~ but couldnt leave a different Belle bat, they were all corked... 7 game suspension L) Threatens Hannah Storm and other media figures as they are interviewing ‘other’ players in dugout before game. Yep, not even interviewing him… Fined $50K M) 1995 He didnt egg kids, they egged his house ~ HE TRIED TO RUN THEM OVER WITH HIS SUV!!! A little difference there, and just a tad extreme over a kids prank… N) 1996 Hits SI Photographer with a ball, he says it wasnt deliberate. Ordered counseling again, this time by AL president O) 1996 After getting hit by a pitch, Belle absolutely levels Fernando Vina at second with his elbow ~ this is an all-time classic video and anyone who hasnt seen it must seek it out! P) 1996 In same game Belle insights a bench clearing brawl in the 9th, he is suspended 5 games (reduced to 2 eventually) and fined $25K Q) 1997 Admits to gambling problem, rumors he bet on baseball begin... R) 1997 Belle (now with Sox) flips off Cleveland fans and is fined $5K S) 1997 Belle is picked to 97 AS game but declines invitation to HR Derby, skips batting practice and is the only player to miss the game workout. For these actions, he doesnt get into the game T) 1998 His 5/$55 Chi contract had a clause which stated he would remain one of the three highest paid players or he could back out of it. After his 1 season in Chicago Belle demanded a 4.25M Raise to keep him one of the top three, but the Sox refused and he is given 2 months to find another team or be forced back to the ChiSox under his current deal. O's give him 5/$65 on last day possible; Sox left hanging in Dec after losing biggest hitter. U) 1999 3 months into O's career Belle gets into shouting match with MGR Ray Allen and is benched V) 1999 In classic Belle style he puts up a sign next to his locker reading "1/2 tear down, 4 1/2 years to go, so dont fight it and show me some love!!! AB" W) 1999 Belle starts telling others outside the organization that he has waived his no trade clause, O’s don’t comment. X) 2001 Belle goes on DL because of hip problems, having had major surgery the year before on it. Everyone knows he's done, but wont retire and instead stays on the DL for the next 3 years to collect the paycheck. He declares free agency in 03 rather than actually retire.
So maybe youre right, I was only able to get up to “X” with these so I guess he wasn’t that bad…
Oh and not that it really matters but a friend of mine had the chance to meet the "Bulldog" (Hershiser) who told a story about when he got to Cleveland in 1995 and how Albert basicly ran the clubhouse. Orel I guess had some things sitting at his locker one day from Belle with a note asking if he could sign them, he did and returned them either later that day or the next. Orel then did the same, placing a few items in Belles locker with a similar note... week later nothing... few days more nothing... eventually Hershiser gets in Alberts face, confronting him saying something to the extent of "so thats how it is around here" to which Belle quickly signed the pieces. It aparently oppened up the clubhouse quite a bit and took some of his ego away, but based on that I imagine there are quite a few of his teammates that will say quite the opposite of what you claim.
Belle is remembered as one of the most horrible personalities in sports for a reason; he was! >>
Wow, I guess he was indeed the Dennis Rodman of baseball, no question.
Don't forget that he was arrested for stalking some chick. He put a GPS tracking system on her card so he knew where she was at all times. Great human being.
<< <i>Don't forget that he was arrested for stalking some chick. He put a GPS tracking system on her card so he knew where she was at all times. Great human being.
Lee >>
Oh yeah, forgot to add the stuff (that we know of) he has done since his career has been over...
Y) 2002 Arrested for drunk driving Z) 2006 Pleads guilty to stalking ex, sentenced to 3 months in jail and 5 years "supervised" probation, he even had/has one of those police tracking thingys on him... His response? "I have made mistakes in my life, but I have admitted my mistakes and learned from them to be a better person."
and by the looks of this article reference on Wikipedia we have officially ran out of Letters to count all his problems with: It was a taken in baseball circles that Albert Belle was nuts... The Indians billed him $10,000 a year for the damage he caused in clubhouses on the road and at home, and tolerated his behavior only because he was an awesome slugger... He slurped coffee constantly and seemed to be on a perpetual caffeinated frenzy. Few escaped his anger: on some days he would destroy the postgame buffet...launching plates into the shower... after one poor at-bat against Boston, he retreated to the visitor's clubhouse and took a bat to teammate Kenny Lofton's boombox. Belle prefered to have the clubhouse cold, below 60 degrees, and when one chilly teammate turned up the heat, Belle walked over, turned down the thermostat, and smashed it with his bat. His nickname, thereafter, was "Mr. Freeze." I remembered the Lofton/Boombox thing but couldnt find a refrence so left it out of the first post, some of the other things are new to me though...
His mugshot taken on Feb 16th of 06:
Say it aint so-ey, Joey...
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He was the undisputed team leadr of some very good Reds teams, won an MVP, and would've won about 10 straight Gold Gloves if not for Ozzie Smith. His career fielding percentage was .975 (Ozzie's was .978), and offensive stats were infinitely better than Ozzie's. Plus he stayed with one team (voters love that) and was a stand-up guy by all accounts. Comparing his stats to other SS of his era (not current SS's), he's defnitely the best hitting NL SS of the 90s. He'll get in, but maybe not on the first ballot.
I am in disbelief that a baseball fan would actually question Biggio's or Alomar's credentials for the HOF. The spitting incident may hurt Alomar, but he belongs in.
<< <i>Belle was not a troublemaker!!!(except for maybe egging those kids!, but what would you do if someone messed with your personal property?) ask every teammate he had!!! he was one of the best clubhouse guys there was!!! i even percieved him as an a-hole, but believe me.....when i went to spring training to see my buddy, in a white sox uni, in tucson this guy was awesome!!!! albert was a true teammate!!!! and you can ask anyone who has played with him!!! >>
I'm sorry, but I hope no one read and actually believed that; its by far the most incorrect and misleading statement I have seen on this board. I'm a Diehard Tribe Fan, but I will always tell the truth ~ and you really cant find a much worse person than "Joey" Belle...
X) 2001 Belle goes on DL because of hip problems, having had major surgery the year before on it. Everyone knows he's done, but wont retire and instead stays on the DL for the next 3 years to collect the paycheck. He declares free agency in 03 rather than actually retire.
I agree that Belle was (is?) psycho. But I can not hold (X) against him. Would you retire at the cost of $39 million dollars? I know I would not. See below from the Hardball Times.
The Hardball Times This Annotated Week in Baseball History: March 4-10, 2001 by Richard Barbieri March 09, 2007
On March 8, 2001, Albert Belle’s de facto retirement began. But how much would this ultimately end up costing the Baltimore Orioles, their fans and the man formerly known as Joey?
I have a certain fondness for March 8, as it is the day I was born. Others who share this fondness include current players Juan Encarnacion and Ryan Freel, and retirees Dick Allen and Jim Rice. (I support the inductions of both Allen and Rice into the Hall of Fame so that March 8 might finally have some representation there.) For Albert Belle, however, March 8 is probably not remembered so fondly. It was on this day in 2001 that the Orioles—then Belle’s team—announced that he was, in their words, “totally disabled and unable to perform as a major league baseball player.”
For a moment we’ll leave aside the chance to make smartass remarks about current players to which that quote might refer and instead work on answering a few questions. First, what did Belle’s injuries cost the Orioles in dollars? Second, what did Belle’s injury cost the Orioles in production and wins? Finally, what did Belle’s injury cost the man himself?
For the Orioles, Belle had been signed to a five-year, $65 million dollar contract. Although that would still constitute a big contract these days given Belle was entering his age-32 season when he signed it, at the time it was huge. Belle was the highest paid player in baseball in 1999 and 2000, and he would remain in the top 10 in salary all five years of the deal, even as wages exploded around him.
In those first two years of the contract, Belle was good, but he didn't deliver the performance Baltimore had expected. Belle’s OPS dropped by more than 100 points—all in the slugging department—and his batting average dropped from .328 to .299. He placed 10th in the AL in home runs, although even this was considered a disappointment after his second-place 49 homers the year before. In 2000, presumably beginning to feel the effects of the hip condition that would force his retirement, Belle’s OPS dropped 125 points from the year before, and he went 0-for-5 in stolen bases, a notable drop from his 17-for-20 performance in 1999.
Although Belle never played a major league game after 2000, he wasn’t actually off the Orioles roster until his contract expired in 2003. This was done for two purposes. For one, it allowed Belle to continue to collect the remainder of his contract, something that official retirement would have prevented. And by keeping Belle on the disabled list, the Orioles forced their insurance company to pick up part of Belle’s contract, generally reported at 70%. (As an aside, Belle’s contract is often cited as being the main factor in insurance companies’ reduction of contracts coverage.)
In total, the Orioles shelled out nearly $25 million for the two years Belle actually played, plus just under $12 million for the three years he did not. Taking that total amount, for two years of play the O’s paid $36,518,464. That’s a shade under $2,000 per plate appearance, roughly $120,000 per game, and more than $600,000 per home run.
Of course, that’s only money, a quantity that the Orioles and Peter Angelos have in spades. A question more relevant for the team’s fans is what it cost the Orioles in performance. Unfortunately for Orioles fans—I’m told they still exist, which is a testament to both human endurance and the loyalty of fans—the truth is it didn’t cost them very much. The Orioles were truly dire in 2001, pretty dire in 2002 and just plain old dire in 2003. Their cumulative record was 201-284, which averages out to 67-95.
The O’s right field situation was often as dire, maybe even more so, as their overall team (one year Brady Anderson posted a Value Over Replacement Player [VORP] of -21.5) but it is hard to say Belle would have made a real difference. A season of prime Belle instead of hapless Brady might have been worth somewhere in the order of 12-15 wins at the high end, but when a team is finishing more than 30 games out, such things aren’t exactly costing a team a lot of pennants.
But enough of kicking O’s fans when they’re down; let’s turn our attention to someone who arguably deserves such treatment: Belle himself. A number of factors conspired against Belle’s career totals. In addition to the early end of his career, Belle got off to a late start (he didn’t play in 150 games until he was 25) and two of his prime years were interrupted by the strike.
When his career came to its end six years ago, Belle had fewer than 400 home runs, 1,500 RBIs, 1,000 runs scored and a batting average under .300. Although some, including our own John Brattain, have argued that Belle belongs in the Hall of Fame, they seem to represent a minority opinion.
In 2006, Belle’s first year of eligibility, he managed just 40 votes, good for 7.7 percent of the vote, miles away from entry. This past election Belle fell to only 19 votes, just 3.5 percent, dropping him off the ballot. Arguably, his poor performance with the baseball writers had as much to do with his reputation as with his actual on-field accomplishments. (Belle had a notoriously poor relationship with the press and was also something of an all-around jerk.)
It seems reasonable to say that Belle’s early retirement—along with other factors—cost him a spot in the Hall of Fame by preventing him from reaching the kind of career totals that force voters to allow players in no matter what their personal feelings. (This leaves out for a moment the entire steroid issue, which also probably cost Belle some votes.) Three more years like Belle’s 2000 season would not have gotten him to 500 home runs, but would have brought him within 50 at age 36. It would have pushed him over 1,500 RBIs—in the top 50 all time—as well as to nearly 2,200 hits and 1,100 runs.
So who suffered most from Belle’s condition? Was it the Orioles and their insurance company, shelling out millions for almost no performance? Maybe the O’s fans for watching their team go from hapless to embarrassing? Or Belle himself for having lost a chance at immortality in the Hall of Fame? Whatever the answer, I’m sure I enjoyed March 8 more than they did.
Alomar should be a lock. The guy was excellent in every aspect of the game and one of the finest to ever play his position.
I remember when he was with Baltimore, how television analyst and HOF pitcher Jim Palmer used to say routinely, "He's the best player I have ever seen."
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He was, without a doubt, the premier player at his position in his era. His career batting average is.300 despite a few bad years at the end of his career. A 12 time all-star, 10x gold glove winner and 2 World Series rings, he matchs up well vs Sandberg's numbers and is superior in all aspects against the often mentioned (in this thread) Craig Biggio. Roberto should benefit from the anti-roids voters and will be up for voting before Clemens, Big unit, Barry Bonds and Schillings. If not a first ballot, he should get in on the 2nd or 3rd time.
I am in disbelief that a baseball fan would actually question Biggio's or Alomar's credentials for the HOF. The spitting incident may hurt Alomar, but he belongs in
That is my contention exactly. I do believe that based on career stats that Alomar is worthy of the HOF, but the spitting incident and his reputation as a surly player who bounced from team to team will work against him, too, IMO. To believe otherwise is missing the point on how the HOF voting typically goes in recent years. Also, his career after coming over the Mets really went downhill, and fairly or not, that will impact his chances at first ballot induction, too. Biggio, on the other hand, is a first ballot lock for the Hall.
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<< <i> I am in disbelief that a baseball fan would actually question Biggio's or Alomar's credentials for the HOF. The spitting incident may hurt Alomar, but he belongs in
That is my contention exactly. I do believe that based on career stats that Alomar is worthy of the HOF, but the spitting incident and his reputation as a surly player who bounced from team to team will work against him, too, IMO. To believe otherwise is missing the point on how the HOF voting typically goes in recent years. Also, his career after coming over the Mets really went downhill, and fairly or not, that will impact his chances at first ballot induction, too. Biggio, on the other hand, is a first ballot lock for the Hall. >>
OK, I must be missing something here. I don't see the reason why Biggio, other than longevity, is a 1st ballot HOFer. For his career, he'll barely finish at .280. In post-season he hit less than .235 and has zero World Series rings. He's only hit over .300 4 times in his career and never finished in the top 5 in hitting. He's struckout more than Bonds, McGwire, Mays, Bagwell and other big homerun hitters, yet Biggio is a singles/doubles hitter and he's only hit above .264 one time in the last 5 seasons. He's obviously grinded his way to the 3,000 hit mark, which is a huge accomplishment, but other than that what else points to 1st ballot HOF? Factor in the players that are also winding down their careers and players like McGwire and Palmeiro(who have voting issues) and I think Biggio needs a very weak year for a 1st ballot pass to the Hall.
While they were both in their primes (1990-2000) Alomar was considered to be the best 2B in the league BY FAR. It wasn't even a debate; Biggio wasn't even close. Biggio kept it going for longer which is where his Hall case is made, but again- Alomar was considered better by far while they were both in their primes. Both should be first-balloters, but if one of them doesn't get in on the first try, it's Biggio.
Voters love guys like Biggio who's played for one team his entire career. The 3,000 hits club is a pretty exclusive one (no one who has at least 3,000 hits is NOT in the HOF, except for Pete Rose, of course), and though you can say that Biggio reaching that milestone is due to his longevity, the HOF voters will vote him in because of those reasons. There are a lot of very good, even great players with between 2,500 and 2,800 who are not in the Hall, like Alomar. I'm not saying that Alomar doesn't deserve to be in the HOF, but I just don't think he'll get the recognition from the writers that you'd expect. Biggio, in addition to playing his entire career with one team, is eighth all time with nearly 650 doubles, stole over 400 bases and will exceed 1,800 runs scored, and most likely 300 homers too. All you have to do is read the posts on this thread and you'll see that Alomar is not as popular a player as Biggio, and the HOF voting is based as much on perception as it is on stats.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Not only that, but everyone who reached 3000 hits since players started being elected on the first ballot (1962; Jackie/Feller) have been elected on the first ballot. Now if only pitchers with 3000K were treated the same *cough Blyleven cough*
Now, that 3000 hits/longevity argument--I don't know of a player that has 3000 hits where longevity didn't play a factor. You can't do it in 10-12 seasons. It's a 20 year task, so longevity doesn't seem to apply only to Biggio.
<< <i>Not only that, but everyone who reached 3000 hits since players started being elected on the first ballot (1962; Jackie/Feller) have been elected on the first ballot. Now if only pitchers with 3000K were treated the same *cough Blyleven cough* >>
Yeah, but eventually that wont be the case ~ there will be someone who does it that, for some reason or another, doesnt get the vote instantly. Remember we are also probably see 500HR guys not making, McGwire already didn’t get the 1st ballet (Other reasons I know but…) and with possibly 4-5 guys reaching the mark this year and probably 6-7 before the end of 2008 it points to that maybe not being a lock anymore. I think Biggio honestly might be that guy who misses even with the 3K, he has great numbers and I like the guy a lot... but HOF, esp 1st ballet?
When you look at Biggio you begin to recognize a few things… he was “above average” for a ton of years but never had “WOW” kinda stats outside of maybe 97-98 where he somehow dramatically increased his power and speed numbers for a two year span. All 7 of his AS came within 8 years of eachother (between 91-98), he never led the league in “non-durability/leadoff categories” other than Doubles 3 times, Runs 2 and SB 1 ~ I say that because he did lead in the “durability/leadoff” type stuff like Games and PA; which kind of hurts his other numbers a tiny bit since he had so many more chances to hit his Doubles or score his Runs. Is he great? Yeah of course… but is he really up there with the likes of the best?
Now those are the most comparable hitters to Biggio and Alomar, and this is the 162G average over their careers. You’ll notice that they are all extremely similar in their contributions and almost all of them have an OPS+ in the 114-116 range except Joe Morgan who was a power hitter in a time when they were still pretty rare. Of all those guys, only Morgan and Sandberg are currently HOFers ~ and understandably so… Tram and Whitaker have chances of eventually getting in one day, and you might notice they are the closest comparisons to Biggio average wise. His numbers do end up a little bit better than the two of them, but they played in a hitters nightmare of a park and the adjusted OPS+ actually shows how close they really were. All of the players were also similar in the field so no one really has an advantage there in their quest for immortality.
What we do notice is that Alomar is the only with a .300 career BA and leads in OBP outside of Morgan. His SLG? Second to Sandberg. His OPS+ ranks at the top and he leads all in GG (second is Sandberg with 1 less). He never really led the league in any category, but he was consistently near the top over his entire career, not just a few year span. He was constantly hailed as the best 2B when he was playing and it was even argued he might just be the best ever. Oh and Alomar also averaged 32 SB to Biggio at 24. Robbie is the whole package; he gave you extremely strong to amazing numbers across the board and because of that I think there is no way he is kept out even with the spitting thing.
Biggio is close, he really is one of those classic “borderline” guys who has very impressive stats but is maybe just a little bit off the pace. Will he get in? Yeah, I think so… but it will probably take a few times on the ballet ~ esp if they are strong ones.
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Seven of Biggio's top ten comps (see baseball-reference.com) are in the HOF; one will be (Alomar), one should be (Whitaker), and the other was a fine ballplayer (Pinson).
Remember that Biggio put up fine offensive numbers while playing key defensive positions-2B and C. He exceeds the average HOFer in the HOF standards and the the HOF monitor for a likely HOFer.
<< <i>Seven of Biggio's top ten comps (see baseball-reference.com) are in the HOF; one will be (Alomar), one should be (Whitaker), and the other was a fine ballplayer (Pinson).
Remember that Biggio put up fine offensive numbers while playing key defensive positions-2B and C. He exceeds the average HOFer in the HOF standards and the the HOF monitor for a likely HOFer.
Yeah, those 7 guys I referenced are all at the top of eachothers comparables ~ hence the reason I used them. I probably could have used Yount, Ripken and Molitor in the list as well but didnt have too much time. (Paul had a 122OPS+ so his numbers are greatly superior when adjusted, Ripken was 112 and one of the best for other reasons too and Yount comes in at 115 so his should be close)
I did want to point out that the HOF Monitor is a bit skewed though because of his “Games”, “ABs”, “PAs”, etc which isn’t something that always leads to a Call to the Hall.
The “Black ink” is how many times he led the league in a batting category; as you can see his is low compared to the average. The “Grey Ink” is how many times he finished in the top 10, again low in comparison. The “HOF Standards” and “HOF Monitor” try to give credit to individual stats on a point system vs the greats of the games. His 54.9 HOF-S is impressive and says he should eventually get in, his 145 HOF-M is also impressive and a 130 is generally a since to make it eventually ~ but to give you an idea Alomar actually has a 55.9 / 193.5 line which is dramatically superior.
Robbie never really led the leagues in that many categories and instead put his numbers up consistently so his “Black & Greys” are low ~ but that 193.5 says he is a cinch for 1s ballot. Craig should get in, but he’s still one of those closer to borderline than absolute guarantee 1st timers and his numbers in HOF-S and HOF-M are greatly increase because of longevity instead of superiority. Is longevity important? Yeah of course, but it also needs to be supported by strong stats ~ and his averaged stats compare best with borderline guys like Trammell and Whittaker. If you look those two and Morgan (at the end) are the only names you will see in his “similar by age” after his 34Yo season.
Just something to think about…
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From the ourset, let me say that I loved watching this guy. There are very few players I would ever say that I just plain enjoyed watching and rooting for.
I am a die hard Red Sox fan.
When I saw Alomar in 1987, I thought there was something special about him then and started collecting everything Alomar.
My collecting buddies thought I was crazy. Well, I had fun and that's what matters. Over the years he was the modern side of my collecting passion -- Game Used bats, Game worn jerseys, Magazines, Roberto Alomar Potato Chips, Roberto Alomar Frosted Flakes, 1000's of cards, etc., etc.
It was as much fun collecting his stuff as it was watching him in the field, as a base runner and as a hitter. I thought he was the best all-around player I had ever seen. My dad who is now 81 and saw the best of his era in person thought he was the best all-around second baseman he had ever seen.
But, then again dad thinks Ted Williams was the greatest hitter and greatest American who ever lived.
All this said, I don't think he's a Hall of Famer. I would be interested to know what Joe Morgan thinks.
The way his career ended will be the most detrimental aspect to his being elected to Cooperstown. His career was not cut short by injury, he just couldn't cut it anymore. Is that a Hall of Famer? He didn't reach 3000 hits when he should have reached it easily. That is a major tell.
My friends will tell you that I was a Roberto Alomar fanatic.
After worshipping at the altar of Bobby Orr. Robert Alomar was the first player who caught my attention as a single player who could win the game o his own (in the field, on the bases and at the plate). I felt that he could do it all and for awhile he could, unlike Bobby Orr who underwent ten knee surgeries, Roberto Alomar just stopped playing.
As a major fan I am also a tough critic.
Good luck Robbie, I've been wrong plenty.
Marc.
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
How, in the name of all that is holy, can a thread get on to its fourth page of comparisons of Alomar and Biggio without the Astrodome being mentioned? The numbers Biggio put up in the Dome are every bit as impressive as the numbers Alomar put up in Cleveland or Toronto, and his 1997 season was better than any season Alomar ever had. I can't deny that Alomar was widely considered a better player than Biggio while they were both in their primes - but the widely-held percpetion was wrong.
Had Biggio worn out at 36 like Alomar, he would still have been better. That he has been able to play 600+ games past that point at a solid major league level has made the gap grow very wide.
I still think Roberto Alomar deserves to be in the HOF. But I think anyone who says Craig Biggio does not belong in the HOF is just embarrassing themselves.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
How, in the name of all that is holy, can a thread get on to its fourth page of comparisons of Alomar and Biggio without the Astrodome being mentioned? The numbers Biggio put up in the Dome are every bit as impressive as the numbers Alomar put up in Cleveland or Toronto, and his 1997 season was better than any season Alomar ever had. I can't deny that Alomar was widely considered a better player than Biggio while they were both in their primes - but the widely-held percpetion was wrong.
Had Biggio worn out at 36 like Alomar, he would still have been better. That he has been able to play 600+ games past that point at a solid major league level has made the gap grow very wide.
I still think Roberto Alomar deserves to be in the HOF. But I think anyone who says Craig Biggio does not belong in the HOF is just embarrassing themselves.
Excellent points, and I completely agree with that assessment.
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You guys all make interesting arguments, but trust me, Alomar will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I would be absolutely FLOORED if he is not. In fact, there is a good argument that could be made that Alomar was the best all-around second basemen ever. Period. There are endless stories written about this guy's talent. He dazzled when he played. He was unforgettable to watch. Trust me, writers remember this kind of stuff come voting time. The spitting incident, sure, there will be a minority contingent of writers that will hold this against him, but I can't see him not getting at least the 75 per cent on the first ballot.
<< <i>You guys all make interesting arguments, but trust me, Alomar will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I would be absolutely FLOORED if he is not. In fact, there is a good argument that could be made that Alomar was the best all-around second basemen ever. Period. >>
Ditto, the guy was absolutely amazing. He's the reason I started watching baseball in the 90's.
<< <i>In fact, there is a good argument that could be made that Alomar was the best all-around second basemen ever. Period. >>
You can make an argument that he was better than Biggio or even Nap Lajoie without wandering too far off into Fantasyland, but any argument that he was better than Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins or Rogers Hornsby is not a "good" argument; it is a "silly" argument. Period.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Postseason play… (Alomar) Morgan 7 times in postseason, .182/.323/.348 Alomar 7 times in postseason, .313/.381/.448
Strength of career… (Tie ~ yeah tie!) Morgan 12 extremely strong years (65-67, 70-77, 82), 5 off years (69, 78-81), 2 rookie learning years (63, 64), 1 hurt year (68) ~ 2 year drastic drop at end (.230/.370/.403 & .244/.356/.351) Alomar 14 extremely strong years ~ 3 year drastic drop at end (.266/.331/.376 & .258/.333/.349 & .263/.321/.392)
I think their careers are extremely close and that’s why we see them both show up on their “Comparable Hitter” charts.
Also, interestingly both have Lou Whitaker as a 850s comparable ~ proving even further that ‘Sweet Lou’ is being robbed by not getting his Call! He may just be the best player not in the Hall… Biggio also shows up high on both of the comparables, just a bit under how comparable those three are.
Alomar should be in with no problem, and he is still arguably the best 2B we have seen since the war… (Hornsby and Collins ~ was just too different of a game to really know how good they were)
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen) and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
Oh, and also mentioned was Biggio playing in the Astrodome… If anything this would actually HELP Biggio’s numbers as he’s a contact hitter with good speed. The Astroturf is probably responsible for a good chunk of his 2Bs as the ball would skip along the turf before the infielders could get to it. I imagine it increased his BA and XBH ratios quite a bit over the years! He is afterall a .819 OPS at home to .787 OPS on the road plus has a 104 to 96 OPS+ advantage in Houston.
Plus someone mentioned Biggio being so amazing in his being able to play Catcher as well as 2B or the OF, but what wasn’t mentioned was how different of a hitter he was when he was behind the plate ~ .267/.336/.365 as C (off his 2B numbers of .288/.377/.452) It was early in his career but it was still 4 years and 483 Games worth of time in the bigs ~ its probably the reason Hou started to move him to the OF (and eventually to 2B) as easly as his second year
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen) and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
Sorry, TraderShea, but making your argument long doesn't make it any less silly.
Show me where in your long list of comparisons you included a single stat that is adjusted for the eras Morgan and Alomar played in and the ballparks they played in. For goodness sake, Morgan spent a huge chunk of his career in the Astrodome and you're trying to compare him straight up to somebody who played a huge chunks of his career in the Skydome and Jacobs Field.
Adjust the basic hitting stats for the ballparks: Morgan's career OPS+ is 132, Alomar's is 116. Morgan's would have been closer to 140 if he had faded as quickly as Alomar. Give Morgan credit for playing above average baseball for 5+ additional years and throw in the additional 100 DPs that Alomar hit into and you have a gap that is simply enormous. Also of note, of their combined best five seasons, Morgan has all 5.
I assume you found the runs created stats on baseball-reference; look right next to it for a column named "AIR". That figure gives a good (I won't say perfect) idea of how to adjust the runs created for context. The career figure for Morgan is 93, and for Alomar is 105. To get them each on to historically neutral footing, divide their runs created by their AIR:
Speed: 200 more SBs and 100 fewer GIDP is not a tie. Big advantage: Morgan Power: You started down the road, but stopped. Small advantage: Morgan Eye: You already conceded this one. Advantage: Morgan Fielding: Relative to league averages, Morgan is a bit ahead on FP and RF. Slight advantage: Morgan Value: We just went through this in some detail. Big advantage: Morgan Postseason Play: No argument. Big advantage: Alomar Strength of career: Seasons better than average - Alomar 14, Morgan 20; 5 best seasons - all Morgan. Huge advantage: Morgan Peak year: Morgan's fifth best year is a statistical dead heat with Alomar's best. Huge advantage: Morgan
So, of 8 measures Alomar wins the least important one and Morgan wins all of the others. They ain't that close, and there is no reasonable way to make it look like they are.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Again with the Astrodome? Don’t you realize that the Astrodome is artificial turf which makes a ball hit on the ground travel much faster and have a much better chance of getting past the infielders? Guys with speed benefit from turf ~ it doesn’t hurt them. Saying Morgan played in the Astrodome actually hurts the argument that he was a better player – not help it.
Now here was the question ~ “Who is the best post war 2B?” Answer real answer = ??? What we do know is the answer isn’t “the player who reached more milestones”, that’s for sure… “Best Player” doesn’t mean “player who played longer”. Having 200 extra SB doesn’t mean a thing if he could only complete the same percentage without creating an out. Besides, Alomar played on teams with mashers behind him most of the time, should we dock him just because of the fact it wouldn’t have been helpful to his team if he ran more?
So lets look at this again: Value… again Tie lets look at RC with your “AIR factor”: Morgan: 1570 / .93 = 1688 divided by 2649 Games = 1.687 ~ so we have about 1.7 R/G Alomar: 1509 / 1.05 = 1437 divided by 2379 Games = 1.656 ~ so we have about 1.7 R/G Again, I see it tied…
Speed… again Tie like mentioned before More = / = Better. 80% is 80% ~ if you had both on your team and you needed a SB you wouldn’t say Morgan just because he had amassed more over his career ~ they steal at the same pace! Alomar didn’t need to steal the bases, he wasn’t on smallball teams ~ his identical SB% shows he probably would have had the exact same number as Morgan had he tried as many time though… Again, Tied
Eye… again Morgan
Fielding… again Tie. Its really close ~ We cant factor in league average here, that’s not fair to the two! If other fielders of Morgans time aren’t as good as the other fielder of Alomars time do we dock Alomar? Nah, Tie
Postseason… again Alomar
Strength of career… Tie Explanation: Morgan bats .236/.365/.372 and it’s a better than average season? I don’t care if they call that a 109 OPS+, that’s not a season to brag about. If you look, Morgans OPS+ is skewed all the way up the board ~ his numbers just don’t warrant that kind of mark ~ esp when its increased even though he was playing in a park which helped his style of play! His OPS+ is really the result of the BB though, and if I have a .236 hitter that just walks a lot then I’m not thinking “this is who I want to build a team around”… I am not going to say that these lines are “better than average”: .236/.365/.372 .236/.347/.385 .250/.379/.376 .243/.367/.373 .240/.371/.377 .230/.370/.403 .244/.356/.351 Sure, he might have had a good eye, but that BA is dismal. Also, the lack of SLG is a huge concern ~ and this is a good chunk of his career! Add too it the 2 years learning and the 1 where he was hurt and you have 10 years of lackluster numbers.
But if you really want to talk ‘adjusted’ just neutralize the stats: Morgan .284/.407/.447 Alomar .297/.368/.438 Again, the only real advantage is the eye at the plate. The SLG is under .010 difference and Alomar has the BA advantage. I will never say “Morgan was easily better” just because he took more walks, and I don’t see how you can…
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen) and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
<< <i>Again with the Astrodome? Don’t you realize that the Astrodome is artificial turf which makes a ball hit on the ground travel much faster and have a much better chance of getting past the infielders? Guys with speed benefit from turf ~ it doesn’t hurt them. Saying Morgan played in the Astrodome actually hurts the argument that he was a better player – not help it. >>
{sigh} I think the discussion is over. {shakes head sadly}
Oh, and Joe Morgan is easily the best post-war second baseman. In fact, there is no other position where the gap from #1 to #2 is nearly as big as at second base.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
You don’t want to believe that the Astrodome could have helped Morgan?
Here, this is his year by year Home/Road Splits for his fulltime years there: 65 .288/.414/.421 Home ~ .256/.333/.415 Road 66 .302/.431/.405 Home ~ .266/.388/.374 Road 67 .296/.415/.453 Home ~ .255/.339/.368 Road 68 ***Hurt*** 69 .259/.392/.404 Home ~ .214/.338/.343 Road 70 .271/.393/.425 Home ~ .266/.373/.369 Road 71 .220/.332/.354 Home ~ .286/.366/.451 Road
So as you can see until 1971 he had dramatically better stats at home than on the road… Not sure what happened in 71 (strange turn of events) but the constant increase to his numbers before that is undeniable. If you average out the splits from 1965-1971 you notice they look like this:
Home ~ .272/.398/.411 with these ratios: 2B every 22.9 AB, 3B - 41.0 AB and HR - 64.9 AB Road ~ .257/.354/.388 with these ratios: 2B every 24.3 AB, 3B - 86.8 AB and HR - 44.6 AB
And that’s even including that dramatic 71 season helping it a bunch. So we have a better BA, much better OBP and SLG plus he is more than twice as likely to hit a Triple! The only thing hurt in Houston was a bit of his HR power but it’s more than made up for else ware. Again, the numbers seem to show that the speed of the infield probably was to blame for the increase to his 2B and 3B numbers and are probably a good reason his BA was higher as well. Can’t explain the OBP increase, I guess he just saw the ball there really well for some reason? Have there ever been accusations of the team stealing signs? (not saying that to slander Morgan, but the nearly .50 increase is a tad extreme)
With those numbers I really just don’t see how you can say that Houston hurt Morgan. It seems to have fit his style of play perfectly and allowed rather low road numbers to become “above average” as a whole…
Since my pointing this “Astrodome Advantage” out is the reason you act like I don’t know what I’m talking about, then I really have to question if you are trying to prove ‘Morgan was better’ or just don’t want to vary from opinions previously stated.
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen) and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
alomar is a no-doubter, though it's possible he may fall shy on first ballot. steriods not an issue for him (at least as of now) and he was unquestionably dominant at his position for a long period. many great players stayed too long but were rightly remembered for their best work. biggio should get in too, though he should have a longer wait than robbie.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Belle was not a troublemaker!!!(except for maybe egging those kids!, but what would you do if someone messed with your personal property?) ask every teammate he had!!! he was one of the best clubhouse guys there was!!! i even percieved him as an a-hole, but believe me.....when i went to spring training to see my buddy, in a white sox uni, in tucson this guy was awesome!!!! albert was a true teammate!!!! and you can ask anyone who has played with him!!! >>
A) 1987 Rushes stands to fight with fans at LSU
C) 1990 Belle is kicked out of Puerto Rican Winter League for fighting, throwing temper tantrums and being a distraction
D) 1991 Pegs a fan in Cleveland with a fastball for heckling him. Leaves welt on fans chest. 6 game suspension and fine.
E) 1991 Demoted to AAA for not running out pop-ups and attitude problems by McNamara
F) 1992 Suspended 3 games for rushing mound on Neal Heaton
G) 1993 benched by Hargrove for lack of hustle
H) 1993 suspended three games for rushing the mound on Hipolito Pichardo
I) 1993 Calls security to silence fans who are taunting him by yelling "Joey" from LF ~ this is classic, why didnt "Darryl" ever try that
J) 1993 Cops are called after Belle gets into a fight with Orioles fan at billiards club; fan has cuts on face which Belle denies physical confrontation
K) 1994 "BatGate", Grimsley of course crawled through vents to replace Belles corked bat ~ but couldnt leave a different Belle bat, they were all corked... 7 game suspension
L) Threatens Hannah Storm and other media figures as they are interviewing ‘other’ players in dugout before game. Yep, not even interviewing him… Fined $50K
M) 1995 He didnt egg kids, they egged his house ~ HE TRIED TO RUN THEM OVER WITH HIS SUV!!! A little difference there, and just a tad extreme over a kids prank…
N) 1996 Hits SI Photographer with a ball, he says it wasnt deliberate. Ordered counseling again, this time by AL president
O) 1996 After getting hit by a pitch, Belle absolutely levels Fernando Vina at second with his elbow ~
P) 1996 In same game Belle insights a bench clearing brawl in the 9th, he is suspended 5 games (reduced to 2 eventually) and fined $25K
Q) 1997 Admits to gambling problem, rumors he bet on baseball begin...
R) 1997 Belle (now with Sox) flips off Cleveland fans and is fined $5K
S) 1997 Belle is picked to 97 AS game but declines invitation to HR Derby, skips batting practice and is the only player to miss the game workout. For these actions, he doesnt get into the game
T) 1998 His 5/$55 Chi contract had a clause which stated he would remain one of the three highest paid players or he could back out of it. After his 1 season in Chicago Belle demanded a 4.25M Raise to keep him one of the top three, but the Sox refused and he is given 2 months to find another team or be forced back to the ChiSox under his current deal. O's give him 5/$65 on last day possible; Sox left hanging in Dec after losing biggest hitter.
U) 1999 3 months into O's career Belle gets into shouting match with MGR Ray Allen and is benched
V) 1999 In classic Belle style he puts up a sign next to his locker reading "1/2 tear down, 4 1/2 years to go, so dont fight it and show me some love!!! AB"
W) 1999 Belle starts telling others outside the organization that he has waived his no trade clause, O’s don’t comment.
X) 2001 Belle goes on DL because of hip problems, having had major surgery the year before on it. Everyone knows he's done, but wont retire and instead stays on the DL for the next 3 years to collect the paycheck. He declares free agency in 03 rather than actually retire.
So maybe youre right, I was only able to get up to “X” with these so I guess he wasn’t that bad…
Oh and not that it really matters but a friend of mine had the chance to meet the "Bulldog" (Hershiser) who told a story about when he got to Cleveland in 1995 and how Albert basicly ran the clubhouse. Orel I guess had some things sitting at his locker one day from Belle with a note asking if he could sign them, he did and returned them either later that day or the next. Orel then did the same, placing a few items in Belles locker with a similar note... week later nothing... few days more nothing... eventually Hershiser gets in Alberts face, confronting him saying something to the extent of "so thats how it is around here" to which Belle quickly signed the pieces. It aparently oppened up the clubhouse quite a bit and took some of his ego away, but based on that I imagine there are quite a few of his teammates that will say quite the opposite of what you claim.
Belle is remembered as one of the most horrible personalities in sports for a reason; he was! >>
Wow, I guess he was indeed the Dennis Rodman of baseball, no question.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Lee
<< <i>Don't forget that he was arrested for stalking some chick. He put a GPS tracking system on her card so he knew where she was at all times. Great human being.
Lee >>
Oh yeah, forgot to add the stuff (that we know of) he has done since his career has been over...
Y) 2002 Arrested for drunk driving
Z) 2006 Pleads guilty to stalking ex, sentenced to 3 months in jail and 5 years "supervised" probation, he even had/has one of those police tracking thingys on him...
His response? "I have made mistakes in my life, but I have admitted my mistakes and learned from them to be a better person."
and by the looks of this article reference on Wikipedia we have officially ran out of Letters to count all his problems with:
It was a taken in baseball circles that Albert Belle was nuts... The Indians billed him $10,000 a year for the damage he caused in clubhouses on the road and at home, and tolerated his behavior only because he was an awesome slugger... He slurped coffee constantly and seemed to be on a perpetual caffeinated frenzy. Few escaped his anger: on some days he would destroy the postgame buffet...launching plates into the shower... after one poor at-bat against Boston, he retreated to the visitor's clubhouse and took a bat to teammate Kenny Lofton's boombox. Belle prefered to have the clubhouse cold, below 60 degrees, and when one chilly teammate turned up the heat, Belle walked over, turned down the thermostat, and smashed it with his bat. His nickname, thereafter, was "Mr. Freeze."
I remembered the Lofton/Boombox thing but couldnt find a refrence so left it out of the first post, some of the other things are new to me though...
His mugshot taken on Feb 16th of 06:
Say it aint so-ey, Joey...
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen)
and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
Lee
<< <i>
<< <i>Belle was not a troublemaker!!!(except for maybe egging those kids!, but what would you do if someone messed with your personal property?) ask every teammate he had!!! he was one of the best clubhouse guys there was!!! i even percieved him as an a-hole, but believe me.....when i went to spring training to see my buddy, in a white sox uni, in tucson this guy was awesome!!!! albert was a true teammate!!!! and you can ask anyone who has played with him!!! >>
X) 2001 Belle goes on DL because of hip problems, having had major surgery the year before on it. Everyone knows he's done, but wont retire and instead stays on the DL for the next 3 years to collect the paycheck. He declares free agency in 03 rather than actually retire.
I agree that Belle was (is?) psycho. But I can not hold (X) against him. Would you retire at the cost of $39 million dollars? I know I would not. See below from the Hardball Times.
The Hardball Times
This Annotated Week in Baseball History: March 4-10, 2001
by Richard Barbieri
March 09, 2007
On March 8, 2001, Albert Belle’s de facto retirement began. But how much would this ultimately end up costing the Baltimore Orioles, their fans and the man formerly known as Joey?
I have a certain fondness for March 8, as it is the day I was born. Others who share this fondness include current players Juan Encarnacion and Ryan Freel, and retirees Dick Allen and Jim Rice. (I support the inductions of both Allen and Rice into the Hall of Fame so that March 8 might finally have some representation there.) For Albert Belle, however, March 8 is probably not remembered so fondly. It was on this day in 2001 that the Orioles—then Belle’s team—announced that he was, in their words, “totally disabled and unable to perform as a major league baseball player.”
For a moment we’ll leave aside the chance to make smartass remarks about current players to which that quote might refer and instead work on answering a few questions. First, what did Belle’s injuries cost the Orioles in dollars? Second, what did Belle’s injury cost the Orioles in production and wins? Finally, what did Belle’s injury cost the man himself?
For the Orioles, Belle had been signed to a five-year, $65 million dollar contract. Although that would still constitute a big contract these days given Belle was entering his age-32 season when he signed it, at the time it was huge. Belle was the highest paid player in baseball in 1999 and 2000, and he would remain in the top 10 in salary all five years of the deal, even as wages exploded around him.
In those first two years of the contract, Belle was good, but he didn't deliver the performance Baltimore had expected. Belle’s OPS dropped by more than 100 points—all in the slugging department—and his batting average dropped from .328 to .299. He placed 10th in the AL in home runs, although even this was considered a disappointment after his second-place 49 homers the year before. In 2000, presumably beginning to feel the effects of the hip condition that would force his retirement, Belle’s OPS dropped 125 points from the year before, and he went 0-for-5 in stolen bases, a notable drop from his 17-for-20 performance in 1999.
Although Belle never played a major league game after 2000, he wasn’t actually off the Orioles roster until his contract expired in 2003. This was done for two purposes. For one, it allowed Belle to continue to collect the remainder of his contract, something that official retirement would have prevented. And by keeping Belle on the disabled list, the Orioles forced their insurance company to pick up part of Belle’s contract, generally reported at 70%. (As an aside, Belle’s contract is often cited as being the main factor in insurance companies’ reduction of contracts coverage.)
In total, the Orioles shelled out nearly $25 million for the two years Belle actually played, plus just under $12 million for the three years he did not. Taking that total amount, for two years of play the O’s paid $36,518,464. That’s a shade under $2,000 per plate appearance, roughly $120,000 per game, and more than $600,000 per home run.
Of course, that’s only money, a quantity that the Orioles and Peter Angelos have in spades. A question more relevant for the team’s fans is what it cost the Orioles in performance. Unfortunately for Orioles fans—I’m told they still exist, which is a testament to both human endurance and the loyalty of fans—the truth is it didn’t cost them very much. The Orioles were truly dire in 2001, pretty dire in 2002 and just plain old dire in 2003. Their cumulative record was 201-284, which averages out to 67-95.
The O’s right field situation was often as dire, maybe even more so, as their overall team (one year Brady Anderson posted a Value Over Replacement Player [VORP] of -21.5) but it is hard to say Belle would have made a real difference. A season of prime Belle instead of hapless Brady might have been worth somewhere in the order of 12-15 wins at the high end, but when a team is finishing more than 30 games out, such things aren’t exactly costing a team a lot of pennants.
But enough of kicking O’s fans when they’re down; let’s turn our attention to someone who arguably deserves such treatment: Belle himself. A number of factors conspired against Belle’s career totals. In addition to the early end of his career, Belle got off to a late start (he didn’t play in 150 games until he was 25) and two of his prime years were interrupted by the strike.
When his career came to its end six years ago, Belle had fewer than 400 home runs, 1,500 RBIs, 1,000 runs scored and a batting average under .300. Although some, including our own John Brattain, have argued that Belle belongs in the Hall of Fame, they seem to represent a minority opinion.
In 2006, Belle’s first year of eligibility, he managed just 40 votes, good for 7.7 percent of the vote, miles away from entry. This past election Belle fell to only 19 votes, just 3.5 percent, dropping him off the ballot. Arguably, his poor performance with the baseball writers had as much to do with his reputation as with his actual on-field accomplishments. (Belle had a notoriously poor relationship with the press and was also something of an all-around jerk.)
It seems reasonable to say that Belle’s early retirement—along with other factors—cost him a spot in the Hall of Fame by preventing him from reaching the kind of career totals that force voters to allow players in no matter what their personal feelings. (This leaves out for a moment the entire steroid issue, which also probably cost Belle some votes.) Three more years like Belle’s 2000 season would not have gotten him to 500 home runs, but would have brought him within 50 at age 36. It would have pushed him over 1,500 RBIs—in the top 50 all time—as well as to nearly 2,200 hits and 1,100 runs.
So who suffered most from Belle’s condition? Was it the Orioles and their insurance company, shelling out millions for almost no performance? Maybe the O’s fans for watching their team go from hapless to embarrassing? Or Belle himself for having lost a chance at immortality in the Hall of Fame? Whatever the answer, I’m sure I enjoyed March 8 more than they did.
I remember when he was with Baltimore, how television analyst and HOF pitcher Jim Palmer used to say routinely, "He's the best player I have ever seen."
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Roberto should benefit from the anti-roids voters and will be up for voting before Clemens, Big unit, Barry Bonds and Schillings. If not a first ballot, he should get in on the 2nd or 3rd time.
That is my contention exactly. I do believe that based on career stats that Alomar is worthy of the HOF, but the spitting incident and his reputation as a surly player who bounced from team to team will work against him, too, IMO. To believe otherwise is missing the point on how the HOF voting typically goes in recent years. Also, his career after coming over the Mets really went downhill, and fairly or not, that will impact his chances at first ballot induction, too. Biggio, on the other hand, is a first ballot lock for the Hall.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i> I am in disbelief that a baseball fan would actually question Biggio's or Alomar's credentials for the HOF. The spitting incident may hurt Alomar, but he belongs in
That is my contention exactly. I do believe that based on career stats that Alomar is worthy of the HOF, but the spitting incident and his reputation as a surly player who bounced from team to team will work against him, too, IMO. To believe otherwise is missing the point on how the HOF voting typically goes in recent years. Also, his career after coming over the Mets really went downhill, and fairly or not, that will impact his chances at first ballot induction, too. Biggio, on the other hand, is a first ballot lock for the Hall. >>
OK, I must be missing something here. I don't see the reason why Biggio, other than longevity, is a 1st ballot HOFer. For his career, he'll barely finish at .280. In post-season he hit less than .235 and has zero World Series rings. He's only hit over .300 4 times in his career and never finished in the top 5 in hitting. He's struckout more than Bonds, McGwire, Mays, Bagwell and other big homerun hitters, yet Biggio is a singles/doubles hitter and he's only hit above .264 one time in the last 5 seasons. He's obviously grinded his way to the 3,000 hit mark, which is a huge accomplishment, but other than that what else points to 1st ballot HOF? Factor in the players that are also winding down their careers and players like McGwire and Palmeiro(who have voting issues) and I think Biggio needs a very weak year for a 1st ballot pass to the Hall.
Lee
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Now, that 3000 hits/longevity argument--I don't know of a player that has 3000 hits where longevity didn't play a factor. You can't do it in 10-12 seasons. It's a 20 year task, so longevity doesn't seem to apply only to Biggio.
<< <i>Not only that, but everyone who reached 3000 hits since players started being elected on the first ballot (1962; Jackie/Feller) have been elected on the first ballot. Now if only pitchers with 3000K were treated the same *cough Blyleven cough* >>
Yeah, but eventually that wont be the case ~ there will be someone who does it that, for some reason or another, doesnt get the vote instantly. Remember we are also probably see 500HR guys not making, McGwire already didn’t get the 1st ballet (Other reasons I know but…) and with possibly 4-5 guys reaching the mark this year and probably 6-7 before the end of 2008 it points to that maybe not being a lock anymore. I think Biggio honestly might be that guy who misses even with the 3K, he has great numbers and I like the guy a lot... but HOF, esp 1st ballet?
When you look at Biggio you begin to recognize a few things… he was “above average” for a ton of years but never had “WOW” kinda stats outside of maybe 97-98 where he somehow dramatically increased his power and speed numbers for a two year span. All 7 of his AS came within 8 years of eachother (between 91-98), he never led the league in “non-durability/leadoff categories” other than Doubles 3 times, Runs 2 and SB 1 ~ I say that because he did lead in the “durability/leadoff” type stuff like Games and PA; which kind of hurts his other numbers a tiny bit since he had so many more chances to hit his Doubles or score his Runs. Is he great? Yeah of course… but is he really up there with the likes of the best?
Think of it this way:
.283/.366/.436 620 AB, 106 R, 175 H, 38 2B, 3 3B, 17 HR, 67 RBI, 114 OPS+ ~ CB ?
.300/.371/.443 618 AB, 103 R, 185 H, 34 2B, 5 3B, 14 HR, 77 RBI, 116 OPS+ ~ RA ?
.276/.363/.426 581 AB, 094 R, 161 H, 28 2B, 4 3B, 17 HR, 73 RBI, 117 OPS+ ~ LW N
.285/.352/.415 586 AB, 087 R, 167 H, 29 2B, 4 3B, 13 HR, 71 RBI, 110 OPS+ ~ AT N
.289/.352/.419 590 AB, 099 R, 174 H, 33 2B, 6 3B, 15 HR, 71 RBI, 116 OPS+ ~ BL ?
.271/.392/.427 567 AB, 101 R, 154 H, 27 2B, 6 3B, 16 HR, 69 RBI, 132 OPS+ ~ JM Y
.285/.344/.452 628 AB, 099 R, 179 H, 30 2B, 6 3B, 21 HR, 79 RBI, 114 OPS+ ~ RS Y
(Biggio, Robbie, L.Whitaker, Trammell, Barry Larkin, Joe Morgan, Sandberg)
Now those are the most comparable hitters to Biggio and Alomar, and this is the 162G average over their careers. You’ll notice that they are all extremely similar in their contributions and almost all of them have an OPS+ in the 114-116 range except Joe Morgan who was a power hitter in a time when they were still pretty rare. Of all those guys, only Morgan and Sandberg are currently HOFers ~ and understandably so… Tram and Whitaker have chances of eventually getting in one day, and you might notice they are the closest comparisons to Biggio average wise. His numbers do end up a little bit better than the two of them, but they played in a hitters nightmare of a park and the adjusted OPS+ actually shows how close they really were. All of the players were also similar in the field so no one really has an advantage there in their quest for immortality.
What we do notice is that Alomar is the only with a .300 career BA and leads in OBP outside of Morgan. His SLG? Second to Sandberg. His OPS+ ranks at the top and he leads all in GG (second is Sandberg with 1 less). He never really led the league in any category, but he was consistently near the top over his entire career, not just a few year span. He was constantly hailed as the best 2B when he was playing and it was even argued he might just be the best ever. Oh and Alomar also averaged 32 SB to Biggio at 24. Robbie is the whole package; he gave you extremely strong to amazing numbers across the board and because of that I think there is no way he is kept out even with the spitting thing.
Biggio is close, he really is one of those classic “borderline” guys who has very impressive stats but is maybe just a little bit off the pace. Will he get in? Yeah, I think so… but it will probably take a few times on the ballet ~ esp if they are strong ones.
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Remember that Biggio put up fine offensive numbers while playing key defensive positions-2B and C. He exceeds the average HOFer in the HOF standards and the the HOF monitor for a likely HOFer.
Black Ink: Batting - 17 (130) (Average HOFer ¡Ö 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 105 (202) (Average HOFer ¡Ö 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 54.9 (48) (Average HOFer ¡Ö 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 145.0 (84) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
<< <i>Seven of Biggio's top ten comps (see baseball-reference.com) are in the HOF; one will be (Alomar), one should be (Whitaker), and the other was a fine ballplayer (Pinson).
Remember that Biggio put up fine offensive numbers while playing key defensive positions-2B and C. He exceeds the average HOFer in the HOF standards and the the HOF monitor for a likely HOFer.
Black Ink: Batting - 17 (130) (Average HOFer ¡Ö 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 105 (202) (Average HOFer ¡Ö 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 54.9 (48) (Average HOFer ¡Ö 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 145.0 (84) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses. >>
Yeah, those 7 guys I referenced are all at the top of eachothers comparables ~ hence the reason I used them. I probably could have used Yount, Ripken and Molitor in the list as well but didnt have too much time. (Paul had a 122OPS+ so his numbers are greatly superior when adjusted, Ripken was 112 and one of the best for other reasons too and Yount comes in at 115 so his should be close)
I did want to point out that the HOF Monitor is a bit skewed though because of his “Games”, “ABs”, “PAs”, etc which isn’t something that always leads to a Call to the Hall.
The “Black ink” is how many times he led the league in a batting category; as you can see his is low compared to the average.
The “Grey Ink” is how many times he finished in the top 10, again low in comparison.
The “HOF Standards” and “HOF Monitor” try to give credit to individual stats on a point system vs the greats of the games. His 54.9 HOF-S is impressive and says he should eventually get in, his 145 HOF-M is also impressive and a 130 is generally a since to make it eventually ~ but to give you an idea Alomar actually has a 55.9 / 193.5 line which is dramatically superior.
Robbie never really led the leagues in that many categories and instead put his numbers up consistently so his “Black & Greys” are low ~ but that 193.5 says he is a cinch for 1s ballot. Craig should get in, but he’s still one of those closer to borderline than absolute guarantee 1st timers and his numbers in HOF-S and HOF-M are greatly increase because of longevity instead of superiority. Is longevity important? Yeah of course, but it also needs to be supported by strong stats ~ and his averaged stats compare best with borderline guys like Trammell and Whittaker. If you look those two and Morgan (at the end) are the only names you will see in his “similar by age” after his 34Yo season.
Just something to think about…
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From the ourset, let me say that I loved watching this guy. There are very few players I would ever say that I just plain enjoyed watching and rooting for.
I am a die hard Red Sox fan.
When I saw Alomar in 1987, I thought there was something special about him then and started collecting everything Alomar.
My collecting buddies thought I was crazy. Well, I had fun and that's what matters. Over the years he was the modern side of my collecting passion -- Game Used bats, Game worn jerseys, Magazines, Roberto Alomar Potato Chips, Roberto Alomar Frosted Flakes, 1000's of cards, etc., etc.
It was as much fun collecting his stuff as it was watching him in the field, as a base runner and as a hitter. I thought he was the best all-around player I had ever seen. My dad who is now 81 and saw the best of his era in person thought he was the best all-around second baseman he had ever seen.
But, then again dad thinks Ted Williams was the greatest hitter and greatest American who ever lived.
All this said, I don't think he's a Hall of Famer. I would be interested to know what Joe Morgan thinks.
The way his career ended will be the most detrimental aspect to his being elected to Cooperstown. His career was not cut short by injury, he just couldn't cut it anymore. Is that a Hall of Famer? He didn't reach 3000 hits when he should have reached it easily. That is a major tell.
My friends will tell you that I was a Roberto Alomar fanatic.
After worshipping at the altar of Bobby Orr. Robert Alomar was the first player who caught my attention as a single player who could win the game o his own (in the field, on the bases and at the plate). I felt that he could do it all and for awhile he could, unlike Bobby Orr who underwent ten knee surgeries, Roberto Alomar just stopped playing.
As a major fan I am also a tough critic.
Good luck Robbie, I've been wrong plenty.
Marc.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
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reasonable view and post. He's definitely not first ballot material.
Had Biggio worn out at 36 like Alomar, he would still have been better. That he has been able to play 600+ games past that point at a solid major league level has made the gap grow very wide.
I still think Roberto Alomar deserves to be in the HOF. But I think anyone who says Craig Biggio does not belong in the HOF is just embarrassing themselves.
Had Biggio worn out at 36 like Alomar, he would still have been better. That he has been able to play 600+ games past that point at a solid major league level has made the gap grow very wide.
I still think Roberto Alomar deserves to be in the HOF. But I think anyone who says Craig Biggio does not belong in the HOF is just embarrassing themselves.
Excellent points, and I completely agree with that assessment.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You guys all make interesting arguments, but trust me, Alomar will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I would be absolutely FLOORED if he is not. In fact, there is a good argument that could be made that Alomar was the best all-around second basemen ever. Period. >>
Ditto, the guy was absolutely amazing. He's the reason I started watching baseball in the 90's.
<< <i>In fact, there is a good argument that could be made that Alomar was the best all-around second basemen ever. Period. >>
You can make an argument that he was better than Biggio or even Nap Lajoie without wandering too far off into Fantasyland, but any argument that he was better than Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins or Rogers Hornsby is not a "good" argument; it is a "silly" argument. Period.
Speed… (Tie)
Morgan SB 689, CS 162 ~ 42-10 Avg 80%
Alomar SB 474, CS 114 ~ 32-8 Avg 80%
Power… (Well, Alomar but time period makes it a little different)
Morgan .427SLG ~ 2B 27, 3B 6, HR 16 Avg
Alomar .443 SLG ~ 2B 34, 3B 5, HR 14 Avg
Eye… (Morgan)
Morgan .392 OBP ~ 114 BB, 62 SO
Alomar .371 OBP ~ 70 BB, 78 SO
Fielding… (Tie, slightly Alomar but pretty close)
Morgan .981 FP @2B
Alomar .984 FP @2B
Value… (Tie)
Morgan 5.91 RC/G ~ 7174 Outs, 1570 RC
Alomar 5.89 RC/G ~ 6914 Outs, 1509 RC
Postseason play… (Alomar)
Morgan 7 times in postseason, .182/.323/.348
Alomar 7 times in postseason, .313/.381/.448
Strength of career… (Tie ~ yeah tie!)
Morgan 12 extremely strong years (65-67, 70-77, 82), 5 off years (69, 78-81), 2 rookie learning years (63, 64), 1 hurt year (68) ~ 2 year drastic drop at end (.230/.370/.403 & .244/.356/.351)
Alomar 14 extremely strong years ~ 3 year drastic drop at end (.266/.331/.376 & .258/.333/.349 & .263/.321/.392)
Peak year…
Morgan 32YO .320/.444/.576 ~ 30 2B, 5 3B, 27 HR, 60 SB, 113 R, 111 RBI, .981 FP
Alomar 33 YO .336/.415/.541 ~ 34 2B, 12 3B, 20 HR, 30 SB, 113 R, 100 RBI, .980 FP
I think their careers are extremely close and that’s why we see them both show up on their “Comparable Hitter” charts.
Also, interestingly both have Lou Whitaker as a 850s comparable ~ proving even further that ‘Sweet Lou’ is being robbed by not getting his Call! He may just be the best player not in the Hall… Biggio also shows up high on both of the comparables, just a bit under how comparable those three are.
Alomar should be in with no problem, and he is still arguably the best 2B we have seen since the war…
(Hornsby and Collins ~ was just too different of a game to really know how good they were)
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If anything this would actually HELP Biggio’s numbers as he’s a contact hitter with good speed. The Astroturf is probably responsible for a good chunk of his 2Bs as the ball would skip along the turf before the infielders could get to it. I imagine it increased his BA and XBH ratios quite a bit over the years! He is afterall a .819 OPS at home to .787 OPS on the road plus has a 104 to 96 OPS+ advantage in Houston.
Plus someone mentioned Biggio being so amazing in his being able to play Catcher as well as 2B or the OF, but what wasn’t mentioned was how different of a hitter he was when he was behind the plate ~ .267/.336/.365 as C (off his 2B numbers of .288/.377/.452) It was early in his career but it was still 4 years and 483 Games worth of time in the bigs ~ its probably the reason Hou started to move him to the OF (and eventually to 2B) as easly as his second year
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Roberto Alomar, spit on an umpire.
No contest. Whitaker goes before Alomar.
Show me where in your long list of comparisons you included a single stat that is adjusted for the eras Morgan and Alomar played in and the ballparks they played in. For goodness sake, Morgan spent a huge chunk of his career in the Astrodome and you're trying to compare him straight up to somebody who played a huge chunks of his career in the Skydome and Jacobs Field.
Adjust the basic hitting stats for the ballparks: Morgan's career OPS+ is 132, Alomar's is 116. Morgan's would have been closer to 140 if he had faded as quickly as Alomar. Give Morgan credit for playing above average baseball for 5+ additional years and throw in the additional 100 DPs that Alomar hit into and you have a gap that is simply enormous. Also of note, of their combined best five seasons, Morgan has all 5.
I assume you found the runs created stats on baseball-reference; look right next to it for a column named "AIR". That figure gives a good (I won't say perfect) idea of how to adjust the runs created for context. The career figure for Morgan is 93, and for Alomar is 105. To get them each on to historically neutral footing, divide their runs created by their AIR:
Morgan: 1570 / .93 = 1688
Alomar: 1509 / 1.05 = 1437
With that as context, let's take another look:
Speed: 200 more SBs and 100 fewer GIDP is not a tie. Big advantage: Morgan
Power: You started down the road, but stopped. Small advantage: Morgan
Eye: You already conceded this one. Advantage: Morgan
Fielding: Relative to league averages, Morgan is a bit ahead on FP and RF. Slight advantage: Morgan
Value: We just went through this in some detail. Big advantage: Morgan
Postseason Play: No argument. Big advantage: Alomar
Strength of career: Seasons better than average - Alomar 14, Morgan 20; 5 best seasons - all Morgan. Huge advantage: Morgan
Peak year: Morgan's fifth best year is a statistical dead heat with Alomar's best. Huge advantage: Morgan
So, of 8 measures Alomar wins the least important one and Morgan wins all of the others. They ain't that close, and there is no reasonable way to make it look like they are.
Now here was the question ~ “Who is the best post war 2B?”
Answer real answer = ???
What we do know is the answer isn’t “the player who reached more milestones”, that’s for sure… “Best Player” doesn’t mean “player who played longer”. Having 200 extra SB doesn’t mean a thing if he could only complete the same percentage without creating an out. Besides, Alomar played on teams with mashers behind him most of the time, should we dock him just because of the fact it wouldn’t have been helpful to his team if he ran more?
So lets look at this again:
Value… again Tie
lets look at RC with your “AIR factor”:
Morgan: 1570 / .93 = 1688 divided by 2649 Games = 1.687 ~ so we have about 1.7 R/G
Alomar: 1509 / 1.05 = 1437 divided by 2379 Games = 1.656 ~ so we have about 1.7 R/G
Again, I see it tied…
Speed… again Tie
like mentioned before More = / = Better. 80% is 80% ~ if you had both on your team and you needed a SB you wouldn’t say Morgan just because he had amassed more over his career ~ they steal at the same pace! Alomar didn’t need to steal the bases, he wasn’t on smallball teams ~ his identical SB% shows he probably would have had the exact same number as Morgan had he tried as many time though… Again, Tied
Eye… again Morgan
Fielding… again Tie.
Its really close ~ We cant factor in league average here, that’s not fair to the two! If other fielders of Morgans time aren’t as good as the other fielder of Alomars time do we dock Alomar? Nah, Tie
Postseason… again Alomar
Strength of career… Tie
Explanation: Morgan bats .236/.365/.372 and it’s a better than average season? I don’t care if they call that a 109 OPS+, that’s not a season to brag about. If you look, Morgans OPS+ is skewed all the way up the board ~ his numbers just don’t warrant that kind of mark ~ esp when its increased even though he was playing in a park which helped his style of play! His OPS+ is really the result of the BB though, and if I have a .236 hitter that just walks a lot then I’m not thinking “this is who I want to build a team around”… I am not going to say that these lines are “better than average”:
.236/.365/.372
.236/.347/.385
.250/.379/.376
.243/.367/.373
.240/.371/.377
.230/.370/.403
.244/.356/.351
Sure, he might have had a good eye, but that BA is dismal. Also, the lack of SLG is a huge concern ~ and this is a good chunk of his career! Add too it the 2 years learning and the 1 where he was hurt and you have 10 years of lackluster numbers.
But if you really want to talk ‘adjusted’ just neutralize the stats:
Morgan .284/.407/.447
Alomar .297/.368/.438
Again, the only real advantage is the eye at the plate. The SLG is under .010 difference and Alomar has the BA advantage. I will never say “Morgan was easily better” just because he took more walks, and I don’t see how you can…
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<< <i>Again with the Astrodome? Don’t you realize that the Astrodome is artificial turf which makes a ball hit on the ground travel much faster and have a much better chance of getting past the infielders? Guys with speed benefit from turf ~ it doesn’t hurt them. Saying Morgan played in the Astrodome actually hurts the argument that he was a better player – not help it. >>
{sigh} I think the discussion is over. {shakes head sadly}
Oh, and Joe Morgan is easily the best post-war second baseman. In fact, there is no other position where the gap from #1 to #2 is nearly as big as at second base.
Here, this is his year by year Home/Road Splits for his fulltime years there:
65 .288/.414/.421 Home ~ .256/.333/.415 Road
66 .302/.431/.405 Home ~ .266/.388/.374 Road
67 .296/.415/.453 Home ~ .255/.339/.368 Road
68 ***Hurt***
69 .259/.392/.404 Home ~ .214/.338/.343 Road
70 .271/.393/.425 Home ~ .266/.373/.369 Road
71 .220/.332/.354 Home ~ .286/.366/.451 Road
So as you can see until 1971 he had dramatically better stats at home than on the road… Not sure what happened in 71 (strange turn of events) but the constant increase to his numbers before that is undeniable. If you average out the splits from 1965-1971 you notice they look like this:
Home ~ .272/.398/.411 with these ratios: 2B every 22.9 AB, 3B - 41.0 AB and HR - 64.9 AB
Road ~ .257/.354/.388 with these ratios: 2B every 24.3 AB, 3B - 86.8 AB and HR - 44.6 AB
And that’s even including that dramatic 71 season helping it a bunch. So we have a better BA, much better OBP and SLG plus he is more than twice as likely to hit a Triple! The only thing hurt in Houston was a bit of his HR power but it’s more than made up for else ware. Again, the numbers seem to show that the speed of the infield probably was to blame for the increase to his 2B and 3B numbers and are probably a good reason his BA was higher as well. Can’t explain the OBP increase, I guess he just saw the ball there really well for some reason? Have there ever been accusations of the team stealing signs? (not saying that to slander Morgan, but the nearly .50 increase is a tad extreme)
With those numbers I really just don’t see how you can say that Houston hurt Morgan. It seems to have fit his style of play perfectly and allowed rather low road numbers to become “above average” as a whole…
Since my pointing this “Astrodome Advantage” out is the reason you act like I don’t know what I’m talking about, then I really have to question if you are trying to prove ‘Morgan was better’ or just don’t want to vary from opinions previously stated.
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I'd say first ballot...
John.