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Roberto Alomar...HOFer?

artistlostartistlost Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
What do you think? Any chance?
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    SidePocketSidePocket Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭
    Classic borderline player. Great, but maybe not great enough. What a player though.

    "Molon Labe"

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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tough call, but I'd have to say no. He was well on his way to the HOF before coming over to the Mets, but his last few years were so mediocre, that I'd guess most voters won't perceive him as a HOF when it comes time to vote. He does have some impressive numbers, though his reputation (rightly or wrongly deserved) as a negative influence in the clubhouse and his frequent changes of venue will also work against him, IMO.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    artistlostartistlost Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭
    As a baseball fan from North of the border I will throw out another Blue Jay Favorite in McGriff...any thoughts on his HOF chances?
    baseball & hockey junkie

    drugs of choice
    NHL hall of fame rookies
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    EstilEstil Posts: 6,979 ✭✭✭✭
    It's Vida Pinson all over again (in terms of career stats and hits); and he didn't even come close. Sorry Robbie.
    WISHLIST
    Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
    Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
    74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
    1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
    1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
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    YankeeefanYankeeefan Posts: 525
    Borderline player, I'd lean to a yes in a weak yr. The bottom dropped out on his skills after coming to the Mets. I think he was a serious MVP candidate for a few seasons prior coming to NY. He was the premier 2nd baseman in the AL for many yrs and I think he was a career .300 hitter with a bunch of All-Star appearances and quite a few Gold Gloves
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd say yes for McGriff--nearly 500 homers, 1550 RBI, 2500 hits, 1300 runs scored, five time all star, I think he will get in.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    jdip9jdip9 Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭
    Unfortunately, HOF voting seems to have turned into a popularity contest lately. Guys like Alomar won't get it because of his surly reputation. Writers need to get over themselves and vote on merit...too many voters have these obtuse reasons for not voting guys in.

    He belongs....2700+ hits, 200+ HRs, 450+ SBs, ROY, best defensive infielder of his generation, impressive post-season stats, part of 2 WS Champs...almost all players (even HOFers) struggle their last few years.....I think he's in.
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    jdip9jdip9 Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭
    I love these HOF discussions...there are so many borderline players coming up in the next few years....Alomar, McGriff, Biggio, Bagwell to name a few.
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    there are so many borderline players coming up in the next few years....Alomar, McGriff, Biggio, Bagwell to name a few.

    I wouldn't put Biggio in the category of borderline, though...He's a first ballot lock for the HOF, IMO.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    YankeeefanYankeeefan Posts: 525


    << <i>Unfortunately, HOF voting seems to have turned into a popularity contest lately. Guys like Alomar won't get it because of his surly reputation. Writers need to get over themselves and vote on merit...too many voters have these obtuse reasons for not voting guys in.

    He belongs....2700+ hits, 200+ HRs, 450+ SBs, ROY, best defensive infielder of his generation, impressive post-season stats, part of 2 WS Champs...almost all players (even HOFers) struggle their last few years.....I think he's in. >>



    Alomar hit nearly .350 in the only 2 WS his teams played in. 12 straight All-Star appearances, 10 Gold Gloves and a career .300 hitter. He seems to compare well to Sandberg. I agree with the rep issues hurting him, but based on stats he has a decent shot.
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alomar hit nearly .350 in the only 2 WS his teams played in. 12 straight All-Star appearances, 10 Gold Gloves and a career .300 hitter. He seems to compare well to Sandberg. I agree with the rep issues hurting him, but based on stats he has a decent shot.

    I agree with that. I can see him getting in on a weaker ballot. I'd say he is definitely borderline.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    baseballfanaticbaseballfanatic Posts: 2,415 ✭✭
    I dont think Alomar will make it since there is no spitting allowed in the hall....
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I dont think Alomar will make it since there is no spitting allowed in the hall....

    Right or wrong, those character issues are bound to affect the voting for him. Strictly by the numbers, though, I'd say he should get in when you look at his career stats as a whole.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    jdip9jdip9 Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭
    grote - you are not alone in your opinion of Biggio...but to all those who say Biggio is a lock, how is Alomar not a lock?

    Their numbers are very comparable with Alomar coming out on top in almost every category except hits and HRs, and that is only due to Biggio's longevity.

    At no point in his career would you consider Biggio the best at his position. Alomar held that title for 2B for quite some time....Biggio was solid for 20 seasons, Alomar was spectacular for 9 or 10....I'd put Alomar in over Biggio - if Biggio ended with 2,900 hits there is no way he'd be in.
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    VolverVolver Posts: 753
    Roberto is a Hall of Famer. 2 rings has to count for something...10 Gold Gloves...lifetime .300 hitter...teamed with Omar Vizquel for 3 years to make one of greatest turn-two combinations in history...he is borderline at most every position except he played 2nd...a typically weak position for offense and he was an offensive and defensive threat...he makes it on the first few tries
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if Biggio ended with 2,900 hits there is no way he'd be in.

    I think Biggio is in the HOF with or without the 3,000 hits--the 3,000 hits is just icing on the cake for him. I agree with you about Alomar and when I said that I don't think he will get in to the HOF it wasn't because I don't think he is worthy of admission, only that I don't think he will get the recognition he deserves from the writers and that his rep issues will dog him to some degree.

    Biggio deserves to be in the Hall based on his career and his versatility (he came up as a catcher, after all, then developed into a gold glove 2B and also a very good fielding outfielder, too). He has the record for most career doubles, will surpass 3,000 hits, has over 400 SBs, and nearly 1,800 runs scored. He is also extremely popular with the fans and the media (unlike Alomar).


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    ravenmanravenman Posts: 83
    no way!!!!! he would have been borderline if he wouldnt have spit in the umps face!!! although the ump was an ASS during the conflict!!! the ump said stuff he shouldnt have said, but most people around the country will just remember the spit!!! robbie was great, davey johnson was great mussina was great.......what happened to my O's!!!!!.............let me guess...that angelos guy!!!!
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    jdip9jdip9 Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭
    yankeefan - good point about the comparison to Sandberg....with the exception of HR's, Alomar comes out on top in almost every way.
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    WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    I think 3 players have led both the AL and NL in homers and Fred Mc Griff is one of them. (since 1901) that is.

    McGwire and Sam Crawford are the others.

    Steve

    Good for you.
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    jmbkb4jmbkb4 Posts: 2,963


    << <i>What do you think? Any chance? >>



    No. And the umpire-spitting incident will be remembered.
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    eyeboneeyebone Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭
    Nope.

    Never should have left Toronto--career nose-dived from there. Still considered the best all-round player in Blue Jay history by many.

    Remember reading an article in early '90s that speculated Robbie was on his way to 4,000 hits. Think he had something like 1,500 when he was only 26....

    Eyebone
    "I'm not saying I'm the best manager in the world, but I'm in the top one." Brian Clough
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    VolverVolver Posts: 753


    << <i>Nope.

    Never should have left Toronto--career nose-dived from there. Still considered the best all-round player in Blue Jay history by many.

    Remember reading an article in early '90s that speculated Robbie was on his way to 4,000 hits. Think he had something like 1,500 when he was only 26....

    Eyebone >>



    I would kindly disagree with the a nose-dive statemnt. He probably had his best years (personally) in Cleveland and Baltimore
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    shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭✭
    Alomar will very likely make the Hall. Very few second basemen have had the distinguished career he did. He might not be first or second ballot, but he'll get in.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
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    ravenmanravenman Posts: 83
    spitting incident will hurt him badly!!!
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    VolverVolver Posts: 753
    I do not think one incident will hurt him. He was not a trouble maker like Belle or hated the media like Rice.
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    ravenmanravenman Posts: 83
    Belle was not a troublemaker!!!(except for maybe egging those kids!, but what would you do if someone messed with your personal property?) ask every teammate he had!!! he was one of the best clubhouse guys there was!!! i even percieved him as an a-hole, but believe me.....when i went to spring training to see my buddy, in a white sox uni, in tucson this guy was awesome!!!! albert was a true teammate!!!! and you can ask anyone who has played with him!!!
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    CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092 ✭
    Wow, I can't even believe this is a debate. He's the best 2B of this era BY FAR, and his love for the game and willingness to improve is unparalleled. I remember Peter Gammons telling a story about Alomar practicing to bunt the ball barely foul so he could move the infield up to set up a base hit. His follow up was "who would even think of practicing that?"

    While Alomar's offensive stats are a little lower than Biggio's, he is possibly the best defensive 2B to ever live (10 Gold Gloves). Most of you will be surprised when he goes in on the first ballot.

    Lee
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He may be deserving, but I'd be shocked if he gets in on the first ballot. Like it or not, the HOF voting is not always based on merit, and Alomar's rep will negatively impact his chances. Just reading the posts here on this thread shows you how divisive a candidate he will be. Only way he gets in on his first shot is on a weak ballot.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alomar and Biggio will both get in IMO
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    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think if Crimedog hung on for 500 HR's he might have stood a better chance.
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think if Crimedog hung on for 500 HR's he might have stood a better chance.

    He wound up pretty close, with 493, I believe, but 500 homers is not nearly as impressive as it used to be. I like McGriff alot as a player, and I think he will be right there, borderline, like Rice and Dawson.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    500 is not but at the time of his retirement it still held some water, agreed on comparison to Rice, Dawson.
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    jmbkb4jmbkb4 Posts: 2,963
    Would love to make a wager on CDNuts first ballot assertion...
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    CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092 ✭
    Happily. Name the amount at even money odds.

    Lee
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    CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092 ✭
    He's by far more respected by the media than Biggio (as a player), and he's going against Edgar Martinez and Barry Larkin in his first vote.

    Lee
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He's by far more respected by the media than Biggio (as a player),

    Don't think that is correct at all.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    ravenmanravenman Posts: 83
    alomar IN before BIG MAC????
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    alomar IN before BIG MAC????

    Very possible, I think.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>He's by far more respected by the media than Biggio (as a player), and he's going against Edgar Martinez and Barry Larkin in his first vote. >>



    Larkin will also get in.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
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    CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092 ✭
    I think all 3 will get in, but only Alomar on that ballot.

    Lee
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    YankeeefanYankeeefan Posts: 525


    << <i> He's by far more respected by the media than Biggio (as a player),

    Don't think that is correct at all. >>



    It is if when you look at the media voting for the MVP. Biggio has been voted in the top 6 spots twice in his career, while Alomar has been voted in the top 6 spots 5x.
    Biggio certainly has to be looked at for his longevity, but in 1,400 more AB, he only has a little over 200 more hits and the same amount of RBIs as Alomar. He's still a good player, but he's only hit above .270 twice since 2000 and in his 20 yr career, has only hit above .300 4x as compared to Alomar's 9x (in 10 seasons)
    Clearly, based on stats, Alomar should rank ahead of Biggio as a 2nd baseman.
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    EstilEstil Posts: 6,979 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Belle was not a troublemaker!!!(except for maybe egging those kids!, but what would you do if someone messed with your personal property?) ask every teammate he had!!! he was one of the best clubhouse guys there was!!! i even percieved him as an a-hole, but believe me.....when i went to spring training to see my buddy, in a white sox uni, in tucson this guy was awesome!!!! albert was a true teammate!!!! and you can ask anyone who has played with him!!! >>



    Are you kidding me? He was the "Dennis Rodman of baseball" image
    WISHLIST
    Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
    Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
    74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
    1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
    1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Clearly, based on stats, Alomar should rank ahead of Biggio as a 2nd baseman.

    That may be true to some degree (though Biggio came up as a catcher, and converted to 2B and later to the outfield making him a more versatile player than Alomar overall), but in relation to the topic of this thread, Biggio gets into the HOF much more easily than Alomar, and he'll get in on the first try, too. I'd truly be shocked if Alomar gets a higher percentage of votes than Biggio when each is eligible for the ballot. Alomar is still despised by many writers and fans for various reasons, and such animosity will most certainly affect the voting for him.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    CDsNutsCDsNuts Posts: 10,092 ✭
    What various reasons? He spit on an ump once, and it seems he's been forgiven for the most part. Most sportswriters have chalked it up to "passion for the game".

    Lee
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    BobaFett72BobaFett72 Posts: 7,304
    I dont think Alomar is despised. I think he is a HOF, but it's too bad he tailed off badly at the end of his career. Biggio is a def. HOF. I'd vote for McGriff, he compares very favorably with a lot of folks in the Hall. 5 time allstar, ten 100+ RBI seasons, won a WS with the braves; good post season numbers; classy guy, nearly 500 HR.
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    TraderSheaTraderShea Posts: 181


    << <i>Belle was not a troublemaker!!!(except for maybe egging those kids!, but what would you do if someone messed with your personal property?) ask every teammate he had!!! he was one of the best clubhouse guys there was!!! i even percieved him as an a-hole, but believe me.....when i went to spring training to see my buddy, in a white sox uni, in tucson this guy was awesome!!!! albert was a true teammate!!!! and you can ask anyone who has played with him!!! >>



    image I'm sorry, but I hope no one read and actually believed that; its by far the most incorrect and misleading statement I have seen on this board. I'm a Diehard Tribe Fan, but I will always tell the truth ~ and you really cant find a much worse person than "Joey" Belle...

    A) 1987 Rushes stands to fight with fans at LSU
    B) 1990 Forced into Cleveland Clinic and suspended 5 games after destroying a sink in Colorado Springs (This is when "Dont call me Joey” began)
    C) 1990 Belle is kicked out of Puerto Rican Winter League for fighting, throwing temper tantrums and being a distraction
    D) 1991 Pegs a fan in Cleveland with a fastball for heckling him. Leaves welt on fans chest. 6 game suspension and fine.
    E) 1991 Demoted to AAA for not running out pop-ups and attitude problems by McNamara
    F) 1992 Suspended 3 games for rushing mound on Neal Heaton
    G) 1993 benched by Hargrove for lack of hustle
    H) 1993 suspended three games for rushing the mound on Hipolito Pichardo
    I) 1993 Calls security to silence fans who are taunting him by yelling "Joey" from LF ~ this is classic, why didnt "Darryl" ever try that
    J) 1993 Cops are called after Belle gets into a fight with Orioles fan at billiards club; fan has cuts on face which Belle denies physical confrontation
    K) 1994 "BatGate", Grimsley of course crawled through vents to replace Belles corked bat ~ but couldnt leave a different Belle bat, they were all corked... 7 game suspension
    L) Threatens Hannah Storm and other media figures as they are interviewing ‘other’ players in dugout before game. Yep, not even interviewing him… Fined $50K
    M) 1995 He didnt egg kids, they egged his house ~ HE TRIED TO RUN THEM OVER WITH HIS SUV!!! A little difference there, and just a tad extreme over a kids prank…
    N) 1996 Hits SI Photographer with a ball, he says it wasnt deliberate. Ordered counseling again, this time by AL president
    O) 1996 After getting hit by a pitch, Belle absolutely levels Fernando Vina at second with his elbow ~ image this is an all-time classic video and anyone who hasnt seen it must seek it out!
    P) 1996 In same game Belle insights a bench clearing brawl in the 9th, he is suspended 5 games (reduced to 2 eventually) and fined $25K
    Q) 1997 Admits to gambling problem, rumors he bet on baseball begin...
    R) 1997 Belle (now with Sox) flips off Cleveland fans and is fined $5K
    S) 1997 Belle is picked to 97 AS game but declines invitation to HR Derby, skips batting practice and is the only player to miss the game workout. For these actions, he doesnt get into the game
    T) 1998 His 5/$55 Chi contract had a clause which stated he would remain one of the three highest paid players or he could back out of it. After his 1 season in Chicago Belle demanded a 4.25M Raise to keep him one of the top three, but the Sox refused and he is given 2 months to find another team or be forced back to the ChiSox under his current deal. O's give him 5/$65 on last day possible; Sox left hanging in Dec after losing biggest hitter.
    U) 1999 3 months into O's career Belle gets into shouting match with MGR Ray Allen and is benched
    V) 1999 In classic Belle style he puts up a sign next to his locker reading "1/2 tear down, 4 1/2 years to go, so dont fight it and show me some love!!! AB" image
    W) 1999 Belle starts telling others outside the organization that he has waived his no trade clause, O’s don’t comment.
    X) 2001 Belle goes on DL because of hip problems, having had major surgery the year before on it. Everyone knows he's done, but wont retire and instead stays on the DL for the next 3 years to collect the paycheck. He declares free agency in 03 rather than actually retire.

    So maybe youre right, I was only able to get up to “X” with these so I guess he wasn’t that bad… image

    Oh and not that it really matters but a friend of mine had the chance to meet the "Bulldog" (Hershiser) who told a story about when he got to Cleveland in 1995 and how Albert basicly ran the clubhouse. Orel I guess had some things sitting at his locker one day from Belle with a note asking if he could sign them, he did and returned them either later that day or the next. Orel then did the same, placing a few items in Belles locker with a similar note... week later nothing... few days more nothing... eventually Hershiser gets in Alberts face, confronting him saying something to the extent of "so thats how it is around here" to which Belle quickly signed the pieces. It aparently oppened up the clubhouse quite a bit and took some of his ego away, but based on that I imagine there are quite a few of his teammates that will say quite the opposite of what you claim.

    Belle is remembered as one of the most horrible personalities in sports for a reason; he was!

    image
    Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen)
    and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
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    Writer11Writer11 Posts: 738 ✭
    Alomar is an ABSOLUTE lock! You can quote me on this one when his name comes up on the ballot.

    A good argument could made that this guy was the best all-around second baseman to ever play.

    I would be shocked if he didn't get in on the first ballot.
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    wallst32wallst32 Posts: 513 ✭✭
    I'd have to say he's a sure HOFer based on his accomplishments. But as some others mentioned earlier, the voting has been shifting away from actual on field accomplishments related to the game to just about anything else the media can conjure up which is really a shame.

    Here's a nice reference to see how he compares to players past and present:

    Baseball Reference HOF Standard
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    Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭
    I don't think he'll get in either. The voters are not putting as much weight towards raw stats these days. Some may call it a popularity contest, which it may be, but good stats don't guarantee anything anymore.
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    VolverVolver Posts: 753
    Using the link walls included they have current HOF 2nd baseman Ryne Sandberg ranked 124th in All-Time Batting and Alomar is ranked 42nd. Using this formula that is too much of a gap not to have someone elected to the Hall - again at a notoriously week offensive position. And add his 10 GG's - the dude is a lock.
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