Set Registry Fraud

GoldenEyeNumismatics · April 19, 2007 11:17AM

This is a thought that just dawned on me and scares me a little. I don't have a registry set so I don't know much about them.

Let's say a PCGS MS65 1880-O Morgan get's cracked out of it's holder. The owner keeps the insert with him, and sends the coin back to PCGS--he gets his upgrade to MS66 and is very happy.

That owner still has the insert for when the coin was in the MS65 holder. Now let's say that some other person is looking to buff up his Registry Set of Morgans. Although he doesn't have the cash for an MS65 (it's a 20k coin), he would certainly like to have that insert with all the info for the MS65. Is it possible that the owner of the 1880-O would sell the old insert to the other guy for say, $100 (or more), so that the other guy could use the info to register the MS65 1880-O in his set?

Does anybody know if this happens?

grabba · April 19, 2007 11:23AM

Interesting angle but I would hate to be that type of person to try something like that.

I can see how that can happen but really what is the point of claiming something like that when you know it doesn't exist?

It would take a lot of ego to carry out that plan.

Definitely not the type of person I could trust ever.

Cladiator · April 19, 2007 11:24AM

Anything is possible.

Russ · April 19, 2007 11:26AM

<< Does anybody know if this happens? >>

I wouldn't be surprised to find that it does. We already know that cert number theft happens quite frequently.

Russ, NCNE

Zoins · April 19, 2007 11:33AM

I also wouldn't be surprised if there are people that collect cracked out inserts. It might be more interesting if they got the TrueView as well.

ColonialCoinUnion · April 19, 2007 11:38AM

I'm sure it happens, which is more than a little pathetic.

Numismanic · April 19, 2007 11:53AM

<< Let's say a PCGS MS65 1880-O Morgan get's cracked out of it's holder. >>

Nobody in there right mind would crack an 1880-O Morgan graded MS65, way too much downside risk. Maybe a regrade where
one would get the grade guaranty, but the old cert number is eliminated. Most of the time when I've tried to enter a cert number
in the database and the coin was already in the system, it was because the previous owner was just too lazy to remove it.

Edscoin · April 19, 2007 11:55AM

Just another thought. Some people have sets listed at both PCGS and NGC. NGC accepts coins from both. PCGS does not. Do some buy an NGC coin enter it in their set at NGC then cross it over to PCGS and then add it to their PCGS set. If so the NGC coin no longer exist but is still in the Registry.

ebaytrader · April 19, 2007 12:03PM

<< 

<< Let's say a PCGS MS65 1880-O Morgan get's cracked out of it's holder. >>

Nobody in there right mind would crack an 1880-O Morgan graded MS65, way too much downside risk. Maybe a regrade where
one would get the grade guaranty, but the old cert number is eliminated. Most of the time when I've tried to enter a cert number
in the database and the coin was already in the system, it was because the previous owner was just too lazy to remove it. >>

There are guys out there that crack 6 figure coins and work on them and never bat an eyelash.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · April 19, 2007 12:05PM

<< 

<< 

<< Let's say a PCGS MS65 1880-O Morgan get's cracked out of it's holder. >>

Nobody in there right mind would crack an 1880-O Morgan graded MS65, way too much downside risk. Maybe a regrade where
one would get the grade guaranty, but the old cert number is eliminated. Most of the time when I've tried to enter a cert number
in the database and the coin was already in the system, it was because the previous owner was just too lazy to remove it. >>

There are guys out there that crack 6 figure coins and work on them and never bat an eyelash. >>

I heard a story where a guy cracked out an 1901-S Barber Quarter in a PCGS MS65 holder, worked on it for about a month, sent it back in and got it in an MS67 holder

FatMan · April 19, 2007 12:37PM

Competition brings out the best in people...and the worst. I am sure stuff like this happens all the time.

AUandAG · April 19, 2007 12:40PM

I don't understand what is to be gained by doing this? It's not like he's got a
1880-O MS65 to sell. And if he ever did want to sell as a set what would he
do? Bragging rights? Nope, LYING rights.
No point.
bob

tradedollarnut · April 19, 2007 12:48PM

<< I also wouldn't be surprised if there are people that collect cracked out inserts. It might be more interesting if they got the TrueView as well. >>

Yes - I know of a dealer who has a framed set of inserts for a famous group of coins he handled.

Zoins · April 19, 2007 12:48PM

This got me thinking. In auto racing many teams field two drivers, a primary driver and a second who has the job to make it easier for the primary to win. So the question becomes, is there any benefit to the owner of the coin to having phantom certs in the registry/pop?

Someone with a top ranking set could help support a second phantom registry set filled with crack out inserts. Let's say this person has a #1 Top Ranking set. If he plays the crack out game with high dollar coins, the phantom set could become the #2 ranked set. Because the #2 set never comes to market and is not discussed by the owner, the #1 set is given the impression of being that much better than the actual #2 set which is only recognized as being #3. The person with the #3 set can only talk about being #3, not #2, so the #1 set that gets talked about seems more special.

Keeping the cracked out lower grade certs in the registry/pop may also make it appear that there are more coins in the lower grade, further elevating the higher grade crack out success because it would seem even more differentiated and special.

speety · April 19, 2007 12:49PM

I've thought about this many times and although there are many players in the registry game, i think most of them like seeing actual coins in hand, even if they have no clue if they are properly graded. Still an easy way to play 'the game' that the registry is.

Aegis3 · April 19, 2007 4:52PM

Perhaps this is registry collecting at its purest.

storm888 · April 19, 2007 6:15PM

"There are guys out there that crack 6 figure coins and work on them and never bat an eyelash. "

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Coxe · April 19, 2007 10:20PM

<< This is a thought that just dawned on me and scares me a little. >>

Doesn't scare me at all. I can't figure out why people give so much of a damn about these registries. Yes, they can be fun and all. But why do some people get so serious about them? It's like some people and their cars.

(I know the OP said he doesn't do the registries. But I also know there are some folks who seem to live and die for theirs.)

mercurydimeguy · April 19, 2007 10:32PM

I don't know if $$ changes hands, but I know first hand that what you described happens.

Come to think of it, I saw an eBay listing one time for 3 PCGS inserts...don't remember how much they sold for, but they did.

Simple answer -- it happens!

GFourDriver · April 19, 2007 10:39PM

<<<<Just another thought. Some people have sets listed at both PCGS and NGC. NGC accepts coins from both. PCGS does not. Do some buy an NGC coin enter it in their set at NGC then cross it over to PCGS and then add it to their PCGS set. If so the NGC coin no longer exist but is still in the Registry. >>>>>>>

What would be the point of that? If NGC credits its sets with PCGS, why not just add the PCGS cert number?

John

slipgate · April 19, 2007 10:46PM

Ha! I've thought about this line since I first started using the registry set.

You could, easily, in one day (should I even mention this?), build a really nice top set in the registry, especially in Morgan dollars, by simply going on ebay and getting the cert #'s for all coins in your set (they are all there) from the Ebay pictures and building your registry set with truly phantom coins.

Is that scary?

Coxe · April 19, 2007 10:49PM

<< Ha! I've thought about this line since I first started using the registry set.

You could, easily, in one day (should I even mention this?), build a really nice top set in the registry, especially in Morgan dollars, by simply going on ebay and getting the cert #'s for all coins in your set (they are all there) from the Ebay pictures and building your registry set with truly phantom coins.

Is that scary? >>

eBay? Heritage's archives would be far superior. Easy to do since if the tag isn't in one of the top 20 sets at PCGS and NGC, it's likely not registered by the owner.

MrBreeze · April 19, 2007 11:25PM

A lot of these ideas would work, whereas, some would not. If you had purchased a coin on eBay, and someone had taken the cert number, you can get the cert number for your collection by providing proof of ownership (usually, a scan will suffice). On the other hand, I still see collectons on the Registry that, literally, don't exist, with coins that don't exist. There is a Seated Quarter set on NGC and PCGS that was broken up a while back. I have seen this collection lose a coin or two every now and then when a Registry collector gets one of the original coins. It also lists an 1873-CC NA quarter (5 known) in a PCGS slab on the NGC Registry. The coin is actually an arrows variety, which is quite a different coin. All in all, I think the Registry should be used for fun. It also helps to organize your collection (PCGS slabs, anyway). Other than that, it doesn't mean that much. As we are continually reminded, there are a lot bigger things to think about than your standing on the Registry.

GFourDriver · April 19, 2007 11:32PM

But, in this scenario, someone sooner or later will register the coin and it will be blocked until PCGS notifies the past (or fraudulent) owner and asks them to remove it. Totally unfair to the new owner, but if it is a high grade it will turn up sooner or later and if it is a lower grade, who really cares?

John

pocketpiececommems · April 19, 2007 11:37PM

The bottom line is the being able to put the set together that gives you the most personal satisfaction and being able to share it with others. I guess if you collected inserts you would have a collection without coins.

GFourDriver · April 19, 2007 11:42PM

<<<<<<<<The bottom line is the being able to put the set together that gives you the most personal satisfaction and being able to share it with others. I guess if you collected inserts you would have a collection without coins. >>>>>>

I couldn't agree more. Like playing an air guitar, I guess.

John

Writersblock · April 20, 2007 1:17AM

<< What would be the point of that? If NGC credits its sets with PCGS, why not just add the PCGS cert number? >>

Because when they crossed the coin to PCGS it may have gone down a grade. By leaving the now nonexistant NGC number in there it keeps the score higher.

Edscoin · April 20, 2007 11:13AM

<< 

<< What would be the point of that? If NGC credits its sets with PCGS, why not just add the PCGS cert number? >>

Because when they crossed the coin to PCGS it may have gone down a grade. By leaving the now nonexistant NGC number in there it keeps the score higher. >>

Heh,Thats what I was thinking but didn't say. Same coin may be a 66 or even a 67 in the NGC registery and is now a 65 in the pcgs registery.

Set Registry Fraud

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