Of course, what the law requires and what any particular judge will hold are two totally different things. Yes, "equity abhors forfeiture" is a truism, but relief in contract is not equitable in nature. There was, in fact, a "meeting of the minds" because each side knew what they were bargaining for and a price was offered and accepted. In addition, you are taking the two extreme values to try to show that the purchaser "must" have known that the price was in error. In fact, the purchaser believed the coin was worth about $900 and it received no offers at $2200. A difference of $229 to $900 is not all that great. It wouldn't surprise me if the owner went into some coin shop and offered to sell a coin he valued at $900, he wouldn't be offered much more than $229 by the shop owner. Is that "fair"? No, but that's business, so says the shop owner. The purchaser here is out of luck because Ebay could care less what the law is. They just want their fees. The purchaser, as stated, would have agreed to a higher price if given the chance. I just think that it is unfair (and technically contrary to law) for the seller to pull out of the deal without trying to work with the purchaser. But, that's life in the world of internet selling, right? Regards Gary
<< <i>If he listed it as Buy it Now, and you paid for it, the coin is yours. A done deal is a done deal.
You should out the seller, I would. >>
And if a car dealership misprinted an ad that stated 2007 Mustangs were on sale for $100, would you show up at the lot with your jar of pennies and demand to purchase the car? Would you leave the $100 on the lot, and then declare that you had paid for the car, so the deal is done, even without the consent of the salesman? Would you drive it off the lot? I wonder how far you'd get. A Buy It Now auction is an agreement to purchase, it is not a purchase per se, and an item has not been paid for until the money changes hands AND the other party accepts the funds. In this case, Paypal has no option to accept or deny funds, they are accepted automatically, and so the seller's first course of action is to issue a refund and/or reverse the transaction, much like the car dealer would wave your hand holding the $100 bill away from him, or hand it back to you if you had forcefully rendered it on his person. That's how I see this.
I don't condone sellers that list auctions and when they don't fetch the price they wanted, they cancel the sale. But that wasn't the case here. The buy it now price was clearly a mistake. >>
<< <i>If he listed it as Buy it Now, and you paid for it, the coin is yours. A done deal is a done deal.
You should out the seller, I would. >>
And if a car dealership misprinted an ad that stated 2007 Mustangs were on sale for $100, would you show up at the lot with your jar of pennies and demand to purchase the car? Would you leave the $100 on the lot, and then declare that you had paid for the car, so the deal is done, even without the consent of the salesman? Would you drive it off the lot? I wonder how far you'd get. A Buy It Now auction is an agreement to purchase, it is not a purchase per se, and an item has not been paid for until the money changes hands AND the other party accepts the funds. In this case, Paypal has no option to accept or deny funds, they are accepted automatically, and so the seller's first course of action is to issue a refund and/or reverse the transaction, much like the car dealer would wave your hand holding the $100 bill away from him, or hand it back to you if you had forcefully rendered it on his person. That's how I see this.
I don't condone sellers that list auctions and when they don't fetch the price they wanted, they cancel the sale. But that wasn't the case here. The buy it now price was clearly a mistake. >>
Sorry new to the quote thing. There is a difference, when I get to the car lot the car will have its actual price listed and you would know it was a mistake. This is more like going into Target and picking up a pair of jeans that says $2 instead of $20. You know as well as I do that Target would honor the price. So should this guy!!!!!!!!!!!
"I just think that it is unfair ............ for the seller to pull out of the deal without trying to work with the purchaser."
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Many sellers would have offered the coin to the OP at some price. That is how such sellers show they are good-faith actors, and it often leads to a fair result.
I have dealt with more than my share of sharpshooters - on/off EBAY - and most sellers assume that folks in the OP's position are just that.
This same scenario has played itself out on BBs of all stripes. We have yet to find one sharpshooter report that his threatened litigation was brought, maintained, or victorious.
The "third-party" - PayPal - prevents a seller from instantly rejecting the payment; as would happen in a B&M retail transaction involving a mis-marked store item. As soon as the seller saw his mistake, he refunded. The OP is not equitably entitled to the value of a bargain that was predicated on a mistake.
Mutual mistake may be the easiest way to avoid a contract, but a unilateral mistake - the results of which shock the conscience - will usually result in avoidance in Small Claims. It is kind of ironic, to the fairness point, that most SC Judges would ask the seller why he did not offer the coin to the OP at some price - after the deal fell apart.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>much the same thing happened to me with a SLQ listed as BIN. After I paid for it I got this E-mail that it was listed in error and was worht much more that what I had paid. I agreed that it was worth a lot more so I forgot about it but it took 5 days for my money to be freed up. I have never seen the coin listed anywhere else but then, I never look for it either.
I wonder if we both are talking about the same seller????? >>
This seller might be me. Some time ago I listed a 1917S type 1 SLQ PCGS ms 65 for $3500. Problem was I left off one zero. I was quite happy when it sold within 1 hour of being listed until I saw the paypal notice that it had sold for $350. I immediately informed the buyer that it was an obvious posting error and that I would refund his money. However long it took paypal to complete the refund is something over which I have no control. The coin is still listed in my ebay store for $3500. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>I am amazed that you believe you got screwed. >>
Screwed out of a top pop coin, yes.
Let me set something straight. I was pretty harsh with eBay because this gal acted like she didn't care, and was going to forward my livechat with safeharbor, and I said to her that I wanted something done but didn't feel that I needed to see this guys acct. completely suspended. Whatever you may believe, this girl stated to me that she could see that it gets suspended. I said no and asked that the entire auction be dis-missed, which did not happen. I was worried about retaliatory negative feedback.
As far as I'm concerned it's a binding contact just as stated on the site. Yes mistakes happen that's why you proof read your ad. If the shoe was on the other foot and the buyer backed out you'd hear a lot of cry babies around here. It works both ways, now doesn't it?
It's nice if the buyer lets the seller off but he's not required to do so. Ethics seen to go one way around here.......
If the seller is a board member, and renegged on an item, REGARDLESS if his wife listed it or not (if she DID, apparently, she has his passwords and such, and is ALLOWED to list items, and if SHE made a mistake, oh well), this seller/board member should be OUTTED! This isnt like when Coin World prints an ad for one of their advertisers with a typo-the typo ISNT the advertisers fault, its Coin Worlds and they have proofreaders. The person who IS the username is the same one who LISTS the auction, description, terms, everything...its up to the ebay seller to be their own proofreader. If the auction is active, then its every man for themselves. I NEVER make an auction active until I have double checked everything in my listing. The seller, and here again, or his wife, whoever listed it, is the responsible party to double check. This was apparently not done, Stooge whacked it, and that should be that-Stooges coin! The seller should be OUTTED dammit!!!
<< <i>As far as I'm concerned it's a binding contact just as stated on the site. Yes mistakes happen that's why you proof read your ad. If the shoe was on the other foot and the buyer backed out you'd hear a lot of cry babies around here. It works both ways, now doesn't it?
It's nice if the buyer lets the seller off but he's not required to do so. Ethics seen to go one way around here....... >>
How great and noble this all sounds coming from someone who has no dog in this fight. I'm certain, dead certain that had you listed a $9,000 coin that somehow got listed for $900 because of human error, you would just cheerfully make sure the bottom feeder who nailed you was able to capitalize on your mistake and was "made whole". You would just honor the sale and take it like a man. Sure you would. And pigs will fly. Dave
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
i think your a sniveling, sneering, greedy little weasel whose only goal in all this is to make a few bucks, since you didn't, your whining & bellyaching. you obviously are completely clueless about collecting something for the enjoyment of it, & only know how to measure your worth & your happiness in terms of $$$
since you ask my opinion, personally i think you should up, & take your whimpering, whiny complaints OFF THE FORUM.
yeah the seller was wrong, but so are YOU, & 2 wrongs don't make a right.
get over it, & if you don't know how to do something just for enjoyment, STOP DOING IT
your no coin collector if you can only measure your "success" by how much $$$ you make (or lose), i can tell you that.
<< <i>As far as I'm concerned it's a binding contact just as stated on the site. Yes mistakes happen that's why you proof read your ad. If the shoe was on the other foot and the buyer backed out you'd hear a lot of cry babies around here. It works both ways, now doesn't it?
It's nice if the buyer lets the seller off but he's not required to do so. Ethics seen to go one way around here....... >>
How great and noble this all sounds coming from someone who has no dog in this fight. I'm certain, dead certain that had you listed a $9,000 coin that somehow got listed for $900 because of human error, you would just cheerfully make sure the bottom feeder who nailed you was able to capitalize on your mistake and was "made whole". You would just honor the sale and take it like a man. Sure you would. And pigs will fly. Dave
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>
Sorry Bud, your just plain wrong. You agree to any contract and it binds you to the terms. Best read the fine print when agreeing to anything, BTW I stand behind what I agree to and it appears you don't even if your too lazy to read. It doesn't appear you have a dog in the fight either so why you posting? Are you the dead beat?
Well, I was going to reply to Walkermans reply, then Dorkkarl (who, after reading his last post, has an appropriate username) steps up and just grabs Walkermans hand jumps into the soft muddy himself. The point isnt who wants to make the most money, its about friggin' PRINCIPLES and RESPONSIBILITY....BOTH of which the SELLER, in this case, HAS NONE. And Walkerman, before you go and '...no dog in the fight...' with me, stand back and feel good about not offering some kind median to keep all happy, and I hope this coin sells for less than Stooge bought it for, oh, wait, he DIDNT buy it because Walkerman, oops, the seller, RENEGGED on it, oh, wait, his WIFE screwed up on the listing, oh wait...oh, never mind....the NGC forums look better and better....Honestly, this is so far from a 'U.S. Coin Forum' topic, it isnt funny.
edited to add: They took the open forum away, correct? That means they have room for a "cry baby, seller reneg, i didnt list it my wife did" forum, doesnt it?
I do have a dog in the fight since I stated previously that I was the seller of the $3500 coin that was posted for $350 and apparently the buyer posted his viewpoint earlier in this thread. If it is your uneducated position that if there is a misprint or a clerical error in a document, I hope the next time the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account instead of a thousand, you don't make the mistake of trying to withdraw it and spend it. You'll go to jail. I received $15,000 for a coin not long ago and to my surprise 3 days later received another check for the same coin from the same buyer. According to your interpretation of what's fair in this dog eat dog world, I should have just kept it instead of sending it back as I did. After all this careless buyer should have checked his book keeping and been more careful. Honesty and integrity seem to be on a one way street with some people. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins www.djwcoin.com
I wish that everyone who posts here would imagine that they are speaking face to face with the individual they are responding to--it might raise the level of civility on the board.
Ethics go one way around here? Its hysterical around here how the term is thrown around. It (ethics) appears to be an emotion rather than a behavior we learn as we grow. The buyer with his knowledge had to believe that either the seller was stupid or made a listing error and without reading the auction I don't know for myself which it was. So some of you want to believe its ethical to take advantage of either a listing error or someone's very obvious stupidity. Someone please explain in your way of thinking why that is ethical.
<< <i>Ethics go one way around here? Its hysterical around here how the term is thrown around. It (ethics) appears to be an emotion rather than a behavior we learn as we grow. The buyer with his knowledge had to believe that either the seller was stupid or made a listing error and without reading the auction I don't know for myself which it was. So some of you want to believe its ethical to take advantage of either a listing error or someone's very obvious stupidity. Someone please explain in your way of thinking why that is ethical. >>
It isn't ethical Mike. Some here just want to preserve their right to get "a rip". I sure wish everyone who feels like this would post their Ebay IDs. I'd like to enlarge my blocked bidder list.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>I do have a dog in the fight since I stated previously that I was the seller of the $3500 coin that was posted for $350 and apparently the buyer posted his viewpoint earlier in this thread. If it is your uneducated position that if there is a misprint or a clerical error in a document, I hope the next time the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account instead of a thousand, you don't make the mistake of trying to withdraw it and spend it. You'll go to jail. I received $15,000 for a coin not long ago and to my surprise 3 days later received another check for the same coin from the same buyer. According to your interpretation of what's fair in this dog eat dog world, I should have just kept it instead of sending it back as I did. After all this careless buyer should have checked his book keeping and been more careful. Honesty and integrity seem to be on a one way street with some people. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins www.djwcoin.com >>
If you made the same mistake at your store (assuming you have one) and I buyer came in and bought the coin while you were at lunch. (So someone working for you sold it) would you hunt them down and ask for the coin back? Fair is fair you listed it someone agreed to buy it and you welched. You seem to think that the amount of money has something to do with the ethics of the situation. That our feelings would be different if it was our $3150 dollars. The price doesn't matter you either have integrity or you do not. $5 error or $3150 error, you should have eaten it either way.
<< <i> I do have a dog in the fight since I stated previously that I was the seller of the $3500 coin that was posted for $350 and apparently the buyer posted his viewpoint earlier in this thread. If it is your uneducated position that if there is a misprint or a clerical error in a document, I hope the next time the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account instead of a thousand, you don't make the mistake of trying to withdraw it and spend it. You'll go to jail. I received $15,000 for a coin not long ago and to my surprise 3 days later received another check for the same coin from the same buyer. According to your interpretation of what's fair in this dog eat dog world, I should have just kept it instead of sending it back as I did. After all this careless buyer should have checked his book keeping and been more careful. Honesty and integrity seem to be on a one way street with some people. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins www.djwcoin.com >>
hey david, just looked at your website, & i have to say it is 1 of the nicest i've seen in quite some time. which of course says nothing about you personaly since i don't know you at all, but since you posted your website, i checked it out. 2 thumbs up
<< <i>I wish that everyone who posts here would imagine that they are speaking face to face with the individual they are responding to--it might raise the level of civility on the board. >>
"civility" includes NOT bringing belly-aching, whining PRIVATE ISSUES out into the public, as some people are prone to do.
if you got a whiny, snotty nose, wipe it yourself before going out in public. nobody else besides your mama wants to wipe it for you.
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
<< <i>I do have a dog in the fight since I stated previously that I was the seller of the $3500 coin that was posted for $350 and apparently the buyer posted his viewpoint earlier in this thread. If it is your uneducated position that if there is a misprint or a clerical error in a document, I hope the next time the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account instead of a thousand, you don't make the mistake of trying to withdraw it and spend it. You'll go to jail. I received $15,000 for a coin not long ago and to my surprise 3 days later received another check for the same coin from the same buyer. According to your interpretation of what's fair in this dog eat dog world, I should have just kept it instead of sending it back as I did. After all this careless buyer should have checked his book keeping and been more careful. Honesty and integrity seem to be on a one way street with some people. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins www.djwcoin.com >>
If you made the same mistake at your store (assuming you have one) and I buyer came in and bought the coin while you were at lunch. (So someone working for you sold it) would you hunt them down and ask for the coin back? Fair is fair you listed it someone agreed to buy it and you welched. You seem to think that the amount of money has something to do with the ethics of the situation. That our feelings would be different if it was our $3150 dollars. The price doesn't matter you either have integrity or you do not. $5 error or $3150 error, you should have eaten it either way. >>
No, it's not he same. I don't have a store but if I did and the scenario was as you describe, ie the money and the coin both exchanged hands then the deal is done. The clerk who made the mistake might have a problem with me but the buyer wouldn't. According to your ethical standards if the buyer when paying in cash miscounted and paid too much should I have chased him down (as I have done several times at coin shows) and refunded his overage or just kept it.After all isn't a deal a deal. I think more to the point there are many people spending a lot of time, not trying to find nice coins at a fair price for their collections, but cruising ebay like bottom feeding sharks, looking for a kill. Looking for mistakes, typos etc and pouncing quickly when they can take advantage of a sellers error. Well I find no fault with their trying. It's the whining and moaning when their rip didn't come to fruition; their dreams of posting their rip on the forum so their fellow sharks could admire them for being a shrewd dude going up in smoke. I don't know all the dialogue between Stooge and the seller but I know in my case I received no inquiry as to what kind of discount I might make to create a bargain for the buyer. It's my opinion that the buyer was not interested in a bargain price. It was total rip or nothing. Do you really believe a court of law would uphold you if you took a home owner to court who advertised his home for sale for $500 when the ad should have read $500,000? And it's not a case of ethics having a price tag. It's a question of who is trying to take advantage of whom? I'm getting the idea that a few of the sharks have identified themselves and now they want to shoot the messenger. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer. David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>Well, I was going to reply to Walkermans reply, then Dorkkarl (who, after reading his last post, has an appropriate username) steps up and just grabs Walkermans hand jumps into the soft muddy himself. The point isnt who wants to make the most money, its about friggin' PRINCIPLES and RESPONSIBILITY....BOTH of which the SELLER, in this case, HAS NONE. And Walkerman, before you go and '...no dog in the fight...' with me, stand back and feel good about not offering some kind median to keep all happy, and I hope this coin sells for less than Stooge bought it for, oh, wait, he DIDNT buy it because Walkerman, oops, the seller, RENEGGED on it, oh, wait, his WIFE screwed up on the listing, oh wait...oh, never mind....the NGC forums look better and better....Honestly, this is so far from a 'U.S. Coin Forum' topic, it isnt funny.
edited to add: They took the open forum away, correct? That means they have room for a "cry baby, seller reneg, i didnt list it my wife did" forum, doesnt it? >>
I nailed a B-I-N for a 2004 Platinum Proof Set that was listed for $2,000 and was worth $8,000. I threw it back to him and he was able to sell it for the $8,000. I did it because the buyer obviously didn't know what he was doing. That's ethical. Did it suck from my perspective? Yes. Did I lose anything by doing it? No. Did the seller cheat me? Yeah, right. How ridiculous.
That seller asked me what I wanted for a reward. I told him that my regular commission rate was 15% in my real world job. He sent me a 1986 Statue of Liberty Set which I eventually resold on ebay for about $150. Did he cheat me because I didn't get 15% of the $8,000 from him? Get real - the guy didn't have to send me anything. It was a very nice gesture on his part. (Your seller didn't even do that, which is pretty shabby, I admit. On the other hand, you were in the process of trying to force a really bad deal due to a mistake, so whaddya expect?)
I bought a bunch of stuff from Hannes Tulving and wrote a check for $1,000 too much. I probably would never have caught the mistake, at least not for years. He promptly returned my $1,000 before I even knew of the error. That's ethical. Was it really great from my perspective? Yes. Did Tulving lose anything by doing it? No. Did I cheat Tulving by accepting my own money back? Duh. Again, how ridiculous, if you think that he should have kept it.
I bought a Proof V-Nickel that had been whizzed, and misrepresented by being listed as a "no problems" coin in blazing proof condition - so bright that he couldn't even get a good photo! I didn't recognize the problem right away, and when I had consulted with some pros 3 weeks after the sale, it past the seller's return period. Some forum members chastised me for numerous things, but dammit, the guy misrepresented the coin. That's unethical. However, that little episode did serve to remind me that it's apparently all about money, and ONLY the legalities are really relevant. Right? Well? Right?
Is there any issue here, other than what's right and what's wrong? Is it possible the two guys on either side of this deal to both be wrong? Apparently so.
Ok, so I am the judge, as you requrested. I think that you were looking to clip an unwitting buyer on an ebay auction. Is it legal to do this? Yes. Do I respect you for it? No, but only because you keep trying to press the point, not because you tried to find yourself a bargain. You are wrong. You are wrong to want to benefit from someone else's mistake. What a prince of a man!
Is the seller wrong to not sell you the coin for a reasonable price? Yes. Is he legally in the wrong? Yes. Is he unethical for telling you stories, giving you the song & dance with his left hand while his right hand is burning up Teletrade. Yes. So, the seller is an unethical, lying, crooked seller. Welcome to ebay.
If you really wanted the coin, you'd have made him a realistic offer when you first found out that he wasn't going to sell it to you. You don't want a resolution to this. No one here can help you. You asked me to be the judge. There you have it.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs. >>
Considering that nobody here knows exactly what transpired- who said what to whom, who thought what (but did not say), what the general tone (actual *and* perceived) of the deal was from both sides, etc.- it would be hard to reach an accurate conclusion regarding this situation. Maybe the seller had a good reason for not offering the coin to the buyer. Maybe the seller just didn't think of offering the coin to the buyer. Maybe the seller wanted... who knows? One thing that is known, though- only one side of the story has been heard.
What seems unfortunate to me is that a person should be expected to be financially responsible for a unintentional mistake which caused harm to nobody (not getting something you want at an unintended low price is not what I'd call being harmed- sorry). It would be different if the seller had a record of knowingly listing items with the "wrong" price and then cancelling sales, but there has been no evidence presented that this is the case here. How many bidders would pay, without complaint, $1000 for an item they meant to bid $100 on? Probably no more than the number of sellers who'd let a $1000 item go for $100, due to a typing error in their eBay listing, I'd bet.
In the past month, I had a buyer on eBay who asked to be released from his obligation to pay for the Buy It Now item he bought because he accidentally bought the wrong date coin- he already had an example of the one I had listed for sale. I told him not to worry about it- he didn't need to buy it if it really wasn't something he wanted. I suppose I could have just as easily insisted that he pay anyway (a deal's a deal, right?), but then, the next time I make a mistake, I'd have a hard time justifying to myself asking for somebody else's understanding.
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs. >>
Ebay ID hockeyfan9 >>
Cool. One less potential problem. Anyone else?
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>I wish that everyone who posts here would imagine that they are speaking face to face with the individual they are responding to--it might raise the level of civility on the board. >>
Thank you, Billboat....I couldn't have said it better myself. Life's too short for this kind of thing.
I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
It seems funny that some buyers have no problem using the bid-retraction feature on EBAY, but do not want sellers to have any means to avoid the unfair consequences of a simple mistake.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
If the TT reserves the seller used before were an order of magnitude off from the BIN price, why wouldn't that be expected to be an error in the listing? Seems simple enough. These things happen. It wasn't like an auction that ran its course over a week and the seller didn't like the realized price. This was the price he/she set in the listing and most obviously in error.
If you have a problem with it, why not join the little 0.99 BIN support group from the Superior eBay sales? Mistakes do happen.
People (God forbid, even wives) screw up sometimes. You are basically asserting that you were screwed because he reneged on a deal. He said that the coin wasn't for sale, then put it on TT at an unreasonably (to you) high reserve. Hmmm. So we know:
1. He's "greedy" - but the coin belongs to him, so he can be so if he wants. 2. He's a liar. Many are. 3. You got your money back, with a slight delay.
I'm missing where you were screwed. Highly disappointed, perhaps - but screwed? Not IMO.
Neg him and move on. People rarely change to meet our expectations - and it sounds like he's like most people.
If you check your pms from about 5 years ago, you'll see that you and I exchanged a cordial couple of pms and I tried to help you out with your closing thought about Occam's razor. That said, I think your comments about Paul are 180 degrees off. Paul is one of the most generous guys on the boards. He is a true collector and is surely not in it for the "$$$" as you suggest. If you had ever corresponded with him, you'd realize that he collects for the joy of it. Your venomous comments about him are made in total ignorance. I doubt you'd say them in person and so I think they reflect more on you than on Paul.
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs. >>
Ebay ID hockeyfan9 >>
Cool. One less potential problem. Anyone else? >>
Are you going to block me Jcarney? That would be cool! It is sad however that people are getting upset. This is just an ethical debate. And although I do not agree with Walkerman, I understand his view point and I believe he is entitled to his opinion. If I upset you Jcarney I am sorry as well. You are always welcome to buy or sell with me, and I guarentee I will treat you with the utmost respect no matter which side of the table I am on!!!!
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs. >>
Ebay ID hockeyfan9 >>
Cool. One less potential problem. Anyone else? >>
Are you going to block me Jcarney? That would be cool! It is sad however that people are getting upset. This is just an ethical debate. And although I do not agree with Walkerman, I understand his view point and I believe he is entitled to his opinion. If I upset you Jcarney I am sorry as well. >>
Upset? Why would I be upset? Now if I were a seller who made a listing mistake and someone was trying to take advantage of it....then I'd be upset.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>Is this really the issue people? That my $$$ was tied up or that I got screwed? >>
Getting screwed is when you are out money and receive nothing. You BINed a coin knowing full well that it was a pricing error. You did not get screwed.
Russ, NCNE >>
This actually makes good sense. I agree with Russ's statement.
I am going to skip all the banalities of this thread and get to what I see as the main point:
Potential Buyer (OP) wanted this particular coin - Seller had this coin for sale... Mistakes happen and deal fell through.
Buyer still wants this coin - Seller still has this coin to sell.
It does not seem that the "selling point" was an issue with the buyer, it was acquiring this particular coin.
I believe that the Seller was 'wrong' in not either offering the coin to the Buyer at a new price, or at LEAST notifying buyer that said coin was going to be available through TT if he was still interested. If the coin was NOT FOR SALE, then that's fine.... but if it became For Sale, I believe the OP should have been given the opportunity to be the buyer.
<< <i>There was, in fact, a "meeting of the minds" because each side knew what they were bargaining for and a price was offered and accepted. >>
There is no meeting of the minds in a pricing error situation. I'm surprised that somebody who claims to be an attorney would even make that specious assertion.
If it's all about acquiring the coin, call him up and make him an offer. If you don't think he wants to deal with you, have a friend call him and make him an offer.
A bad deal on ebay is still better than a good day in Iraq, brother ! The thread title alone skeeredededed me, BooBoo. Anyone have a picture of a damaged coin in honor of our young men and women serving our nation ?
..." communication is the problem to the answer, you got a number and your hand is on the phone the weather's turned and all the lines are down....The things we do for love "... (10 CC)
Love is a selfless act ! If you got your money back, I am happy. If you didn't get the coin you attempted to get for the price you paid because the seller refunded the money, too bad... so sad. I am sorry and I wish I could make you feel better.
Beyond that, I ain't makin' no judgement Even if I get screwed or feel like I get screwed... If I get out by the skin of my teeth, I'm still breathin'.
<< <i>If the TT reserves the seller used before were an order of magnitude off from the BIN price, why wouldn't that be expected to be an error in the listing? Seems simple enough. These things happen. It wasn't like an auction that ran its course over a week and the seller didn't like the realized price. This was the price he/she set in the listing and most obviously in error.
If you have a problem with it, why not join the little 0.99 BIN support group from the Superior eBay sales? Mistakes do happen. >>
[sarcasm] oh yeah, GOOD POINT........hey Superior, where's my 1893-S AU-50 Morgan for $100 BIN?.....wah wah. I never got it. Yeah!...Like I knew THAT would show up in the mail. [/sarcasm]
I bought this "Lincoln" ... for $229.95. The coin being a very low condition census rarity is worth around $900-$1,000. I received an E-Mail from "Bob the dealer" that the coin was listed in error and was not for sale?
ok stop right there. doesn't this make you say "hmm, maybe a mistake occurred"?
"The coin is not for sale" is now FOR SALE ON TELETRADE! Why was it NOT OFFERED to me, ME
why didn't YOU MAKE an offer?
If it was not for sale and the listing was in error, how did it appear on TT, in just over 1 month?
hate to tell ya, but i can think of perfectly legitimate scenarios why this could happen.
the coin hammered at $2,600 on TT and DID NOT SELL! Then was relisted again and hammered at $2,200 and DID NOT SELL!
these facts are completely irrelevant. finally,
Why was the coin NOT FOR SALE...because the seller is greedy.
sorry, this sounds like a venemous comment to me.
bottom line: if the coin's so important to paul, pick up the phone & call bob, & offer him $3000.
but DON'T makes complaints like this on a public forum. it accomplishes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, & makes you look like a fool.
I'm not an attorney, but my understanding is that, when a contract is made, especially when an error is claimed, there is NOT a "meeting of the minds"..... if no solution can be arrived at, acceptable to both parties, an there are no damages to either party, then the contract is cancelled and both parties are back where they started.... No harm, no foul.....
Based on what I have read, there could NEVER be a meeting of the minds between this buyer and this seller.......
<< <i>I am amazed that you believe you got screwed. >>
Screwed out of a top pop coin, yes.
Let me set something straight. I was pretty harsh with eBay because this gal acted like she didn't care, and was going to forward my livechat with safeharbor, and I said to her that I wanted something done but didn't feel that I needed to see this guys acct. completely suspended. Whatever you may believe, this girl stated to me that she could see that it gets suspended. I said no and asked that the entire auction be dis-missed, which did not happen. I was worried about retaliatory negative feedback.
Later, Paul. >>
Paul, I feel your pain but in all honesty....mistakes happen, albiet it might have gone over a little more smoothly if you had gotten on the phone with the seller.
Heck, I had something similar happen to me a while back after listing a series of coins and then had to leave on a business trip and have my wife finish the listings. Pictures of the same date coins but of a particular VAM. Buyer was a forum member who graciously let me off the hook at the time. I ended up selling it to him at a later date at his pricing when I found another.
But, not everyone has had this done to the extent of Superior....they didn't even do anything when hundreds of thousand plus dollar coins went for dollar bin's....
This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
<< <i>i think your a sniveling, sneering, greedy little weasel whose only goal in all this is to make a few bucks, since you didn't, your whining & bellyaching. you obviously are completely clueless about collecting something for the enjoyment of it, & only know how to measure your worth & your happiness in terms of $$$
since you ask my opinion, personally i think you should up, & take your whimpering, whiny complaints OFF THE FORUM.
yeah the seller was wrong, but so are YOU, & 2 wrongs don't make a right.
get over it, & if you don't know how to do something just for enjoyment, STOP DOING IT
your no coin collector if you can only measure your "success" by how much $$$ you make (or lose), i can tell you that.
K S >>
I can't believe that someone would leave a post like this. Where did I say I was looking to make a few bucks? I was buying the coin to put into my registry set.
Comments
In addition, you are taking the two extreme values to try to show that the purchaser "must" have known that the price was in error. In fact, the purchaser believed the coin was worth about $900 and it received no offers at $2200. A difference of $229 to $900 is not all that great. It wouldn't surprise me if the owner went into some coin shop and offered to sell a coin he valued at $900, he wouldn't be offered much more than $229 by the shop owner. Is that "fair"? No, but that's business, so says the shop owner.
The purchaser here is out of luck because Ebay could care less what the law is. They just want their fees. The purchaser, as stated, would have agreed to a higher price if given the chance. I just think that it is unfair (and technically contrary to law) for the seller to pull out of the deal without trying to work with the purchaser. But, that's life in the world of internet selling, right?
Regards
Gary
<< <i>
<< <i>If he listed it as Buy it Now, and you paid for it, the coin is yours. A done deal is a done deal.
You should out the seller, I would. >>
And if a car dealership misprinted an ad that stated 2007 Mustangs were on sale for $100, would you show up at the lot with your jar of pennies and demand to purchase the car? Would you leave the $100 on the lot, and then declare that you had paid for the car, so the deal is done, even without the consent of the salesman? Would you drive it off the lot? I wonder how far you'd get. A Buy It Now auction is an agreement to purchase, it is not a purchase per se, and an item has not been paid for until the money changes hands AND the other party accepts the funds. In this case, Paypal has no option to accept or deny funds, they are accepted automatically, and so the seller's first course of action is to issue a refund and/or reverse the transaction, much like the car dealer would wave your hand holding the $100 bill away from him, or hand it back to you if you had forcefully rendered it on his person. That's how I see this.
I don't condone sellers that list auctions and when they don't fetch the price they wanted, they cancel the sale. But that wasn't the case here. The buy it now price was clearly a mistake. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>If he listed it as Buy it Now, and you paid for it, the coin is yours. A done deal is a done deal.
You should out the seller, I would. >>
And if a car dealership misprinted an ad that stated 2007 Mustangs were on sale for $100, would you show up at the lot with your jar of pennies and demand to purchase the car? Would you leave the $100 on the lot, and then declare that you had paid for the car, so the deal is done, even without the consent of the salesman? Would you drive it off the lot? I wonder how far you'd get. A Buy It Now auction is an agreement to purchase, it is not a purchase per se, and an item has not been paid for until the money changes hands AND the other party accepts the funds. In this case, Paypal has no option to accept or deny funds, they are accepted automatically, and so the seller's first course of action is to issue a refund and/or reverse the transaction, much like the car dealer would wave your hand holding the $100 bill away from him, or hand it back to you if you had forcefully rendered it on his person. That's how I see this.
I don't condone sellers that list auctions and when they don't fetch the price they wanted, they cancel the sale. But that wasn't the case here. The buy it now price was clearly a mistake. >>
Sorry new to the quote thing. There is a difference, when I get to the car lot the car will have its actual price listed and you would know it was a mistake. This is more like going into Target and picking up a pair of jeans that says $2 instead of $20. You know as well as I do that Target would honor the price. So should this guy!!!!!!!!!!!
////////////////////////////////////////////////
Many sellers would have offered the coin to the OP at
some price. That is how such sellers show they are
good-faith actors, and it often leads to a fair result.
I have dealt with more than my share of sharpshooters
- on/off EBAY - and most sellers assume that folks in the
OP's position are just that.
This same scenario has played itself out on BBs of all
stripes. We have yet to find one sharpshooter report
that his threatened litigation was brought, maintained,
or victorious.
The "third-party" - PayPal - prevents a seller from instantly
rejecting the payment; as would happen in a B&M retail
transaction involving a mis-marked store item. As soon as
the seller saw his mistake, he refunded. The OP is not
equitably entitled to the value of a bargain that was predicated
on a mistake.
Mutual mistake may be the easiest way to avoid a contract,
but a unilateral mistake - the results of which shock the
conscience - will usually result in avoidance in Small Claims.
It is kind of ironic, to the fairness point, that most SC Judges
would ask the seller why he did not offer the coin to the OP
at some price - after the deal fell apart.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
They are not obligated to do so; they may do so
to preserve goodwill. Trying to force them to, would
be a long, hard and silly road.
The coin did not sell on TT just for the simple GREED.
It willl be up again soon somewhere at sometime.
I do know what you are going through and believe me when I say.
Things do come around.
BILL
<< <i>much the same thing happened to me with a SLQ listed as BIN. After I paid for it I got this E-mail that it was listed in error and was worht much more that what I had paid. I agreed that it was worth a lot more so I forgot about it but it took 5 days for my money to be freed up. I have never seen the coin listed anywhere else but then, I never look for it either.
I wonder if we both are talking about the same seller????? >>
This seller might be me. Some time ago I listed a 1917S type 1 SLQ PCGS ms 65 for $3500. Problem was I left off one zero. I was quite happy when it sold within 1 hour of being listed until I saw the paypal notice that it had sold for $350.
I immediately informed the buyer that it was an obvious posting error and that I would refund his money. However long it took paypal to complete the refund is something over which I have no control.
The coin is still listed in my ebay store for $3500. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>I am amazed that you believe you got screwed. >>
Screwed out of a top pop coin, yes.
Let me set something straight. I was pretty harsh with eBay because this gal acted like she didn't care, and was going to forward my livechat with safeharbor, and I said to her that I wanted something done but didn't feel that I needed to see this guys acct. completely suspended. Whatever you may believe, this girl stated to me that she could see that it gets suspended. I said no and asked that the entire auction be dis-missed, which did not happen. I was worried about retaliatory negative feedback.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
It's nice if the buyer lets the seller off but he's not required to do so. Ethics seen to go one way around here.......
there are plenty attorneys here, I'm sure, that specialize in Contract Law.
Consider consulting one and go after the seller, but moreover, eBay itself.
This contract is either binding, with stipulations for errors, or is totally worthless.
<< <i>As far as I'm concerned it's a binding contact just as stated on the site. Yes mistakes happen that's why you proof read your ad. If the shoe was on the other foot and the buyer backed out you'd hear a lot of cry babies around here. It works both ways, now doesn't it?
It's nice if the buyer lets the seller off but he's not required to do so. Ethics seen to go one way around here....... >>
How great and noble this all sounds coming from someone who has no dog in this fight.
I'm certain, dead certain that had you listed a $9,000 coin that somehow got listed for $900 because of human error, you would just cheerfully make sure the bottom feeder who nailed you was able to capitalize on your mistake and was "made whole". You would just honor the sale and take it like a man.
Sure you would. And pigs will fly. Dave
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
since you ask my opinion, personally i think you should up, & take your whimpering, whiny complaints OFF THE FORUM.
yeah the seller was wrong, but so are YOU, & 2 wrongs don't make a right.
get over it, & if you don't know how to do something just for enjoyment, STOP DOING IT
your no coin collector if you can only measure your "success" by how much $$$ you make (or lose), i can tell you that.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>As far as I'm concerned it's a binding contact just as stated on the site. Yes mistakes happen that's why you proof read your ad. If the shoe was on the other foot and the buyer backed out you'd hear a lot of cry babies around here. It works both ways, now doesn't it?
It's nice if the buyer lets the seller off but he's not required to do so. Ethics seen to go one way around here....... >>
How great and noble this all sounds coming from someone who has no dog in this fight.
I'm certain, dead certain that had you listed a $9,000 coin that somehow got listed for $900 because of human error, you would just cheerfully make sure the bottom feeder who nailed you was able to capitalize on your mistake and was "made whole". You would just honor the sale and take it like a man.
Sure you would. And pigs will fly. Dave
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com >>
Sorry Bud, your just plain wrong. You agree to any contract and it binds you to the terms. Best read the fine print when agreeing to anything, BTW I stand behind what I agree to and it appears you don't even if your too lazy to read. It doesn't appear you have a dog in the fight either so why you posting? Are you the dead beat?
edited to add: They took the open forum away, correct? That means they have room for a "cry baby, seller reneg, i didnt list it my wife did" forum, doesnt it?
<< <i>I think he should have honored the deal. Since he would not because of his greed you should expose him. >>
His greed?! I would think that a buyer who would force the issue when an honest mistake was made is the greedy one.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
If it is your uneducated position that if there is a misprint or a clerical error in a document, I hope the next time the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account instead of a thousand, you don't make the mistake of trying to withdraw it and spend it. You'll go to jail.
I received $15,000 for a coin not long ago and to my surprise 3 days later received another check for the same coin from the same buyer. According to your interpretation of what's fair in this dog eat dog world, I should have just kept it instead of sending it back as I did.
After all this careless buyer should have checked his book keeping and been more careful.
Honesty and integrity seem to be on a one way street with some people. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>Ethics go one way around here? Its hysterical around here how the term is thrown around. It (ethics) appears to be an emotion rather than a behavior we learn as we grow. The buyer with his knowledge had to believe that either the seller was stupid or made a listing error and without reading the auction I don't know for myself which it was. So some of you want to believe its ethical to take advantage of either a listing error or someone's very obvious stupidity. Someone please explain in your way of thinking why that is ethical. >>
It isn't ethical Mike. Some here just want to preserve their right to get "a rip". I sure wish everyone who feels like this would post their Ebay IDs. I'd like to enlarge my blocked bidder list.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>I do have a dog in the fight since I stated previously that I was the seller of the $3500 coin that was posted for $350 and apparently the buyer posted his viewpoint earlier in this thread.
If it is your uneducated position that if there is a misprint or a clerical error in a document, I hope the next time the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account instead of a thousand, you don't make the mistake of trying to withdraw it and spend it. You'll go to jail.
I received $15,000 for a coin not long ago and to my surprise 3 days later received another check for the same coin from the same buyer. According to your interpretation of what's fair in this dog eat dog world, I should have just kept it instead of sending it back as I did.
After all this careless buyer should have checked his book keeping and been more careful.
Honesty and integrity seem to be on a one way street with some people. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins www.djwcoin.com >>
If you made the same mistake at your store (assuming you have one) and I buyer came in and bought the coin while you were at lunch. (So someone working for you sold it) would you hunt them down and ask for the coin back? Fair is fair you listed it someone agreed to buy it and you welched. You seem to think that the amount of money has something to do with the ethics of the situation. That our feelings would be different if it was our $3150 dollars. The price doesn't matter you either have integrity or you do not. $5 error or $3150 error, you should have eaten it either way.
<< <i> I do have a dog in the fight since I stated previously that I was the seller of the $3500 coin that was posted for $350 and apparently the buyer posted his viewpoint earlier in this thread.
If it is your uneducated position that if there is a misprint or a clerical error in a document, I hope the next time the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account instead of a thousand, you don't make the mistake of trying to withdraw it and spend it. You'll go to jail.
I received $15,000 for a coin not long ago and to my surprise 3 days later received another check for the same coin from the same buyer. According to your interpretation of what's fair in this dog eat dog world, I should have just kept it instead of sending it back as I did.
After all this careless buyer should have checked his book keeping and been more careful.
Honesty and integrity seem to be on a one way street with some people. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins www.djwcoin.com >>
hey david, just looked at your website, & i have to say it is 1 of the nicest i've seen in quite some time. which of course says nothing about you personaly since i don't know you at all, but since you posted your website, i checked it out. 2 thumbs up
<< <i>I wish that everyone who posts here would imagine that they are speaking face to face with the individual they are responding to--it might raise the level of civility on the board. >>
"civility" includes NOT bringing belly-aching, whining PRIVATE ISSUES out into the public, as some people are prone to do.
if you got a whiny, snotty nose, wipe it yourself before going out in public. nobody else besides your mama wants to wipe it for you.
K S
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken
<< <i>
<< <i>I do have a dog in the fight since I stated previously that I was the seller of the $3500 coin that was posted for $350 and apparently the buyer posted his viewpoint earlier in this thread.
If it is your uneducated position that if there is a misprint or a clerical error in a document, I hope the next time the bank mistakenly deposits a million dollars in your account instead of a thousand, you don't make the mistake of trying to withdraw it and spend it. You'll go to jail.
I received $15,000 for a coin not long ago and to my surprise 3 days later received another check for the same coin from the same buyer. According to your interpretation of what's fair in this dog eat dog world, I should have just kept it instead of sending it back as I did.
After all this careless buyer should have checked his book keeping and been more careful.
Honesty and integrity seem to be on a one way street with some people. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins www.djwcoin.com >>
If you made the same mistake at your store (assuming you have one) and I buyer came in and bought the coin while you were at lunch. (So someone working for you sold it) would you hunt them down and ask for the coin back? Fair is fair you listed it someone agreed to buy it and you welched. You seem to think that the amount of money has something to do with the ethics of the situation. That our feelings would be different if it was our $3150 dollars. The price doesn't matter you either have integrity or you do not. $5 error or $3150 error, you should have eaten it either way. >>
No, it's not he same. I don't have a store but if I did and the scenario was as you describe, ie the money and the coin both exchanged hands then the deal is done. The clerk who made the mistake might have a problem with me but the buyer wouldn't.
According to your ethical standards if the buyer when paying in cash miscounted and paid too much should I have chased him down (as I have done several times at coin shows) and refunded his overage or just kept it.After all isn't a deal a deal.
I think more to the point there are many people spending a lot of time, not trying to find nice coins at a fair price for their collections, but cruising ebay like bottom feeding sharks, looking for a kill. Looking for mistakes, typos etc and pouncing quickly when they can take advantage of a sellers error.
Well I find no fault with their trying. It's the whining and moaning when their rip didn't come to fruition; their dreams of posting their rip on the forum so their fellow sharks could admire them for being a shrewd dude going up in smoke.
I don't know all the dialogue between Stooge and the seller but I know in my case I received no inquiry as to what kind of discount I might make to create a bargain for the buyer.
It's my opinion that the buyer was not interested in a bargain price. It was total rip or nothing.
Do you really believe a court of law would uphold you if you took a home owner to court who advertised his home for sale for $500 when the ad should have read $500,000?
And it's not a case of ethics having a price tag. It's a question of who is trying to take advantage of whom?
I'm getting the idea that a few of the sharks have identified themselves and now they want to shoot the messenger. Dave W
The priceless ingredient in any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer.
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
The priceless ingredient
<< <i>Responders.....
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>Well, I was going to reply to Walkermans reply, then Dorkkarl (who, after reading his last post, has an appropriate username) steps up and just grabs Walkermans hand jumps into the soft muddy himself. The point isnt who wants to make the most money, its about friggin' PRINCIPLES and RESPONSIBILITY....BOTH of which the SELLER, in this case, HAS NONE. And Walkerman, before you go and '...no dog in the fight...' with me, stand back and feel good about not offering some kind median to keep all happy, and I hope this coin sells for less than Stooge bought it for, oh, wait, he DIDNT buy it because Walkerman, oops, the seller, RENEGGED on it, oh, wait, his WIFE screwed up on the listing, oh wait...oh, never mind....the NGC forums look better and better....Honestly, this is so far from a 'U.S. Coin Forum' topic, it isnt funny.
edited to add: They took the open forum away, correct? That means they have room for a "cry baby, seller reneg, i didnt list it my wife did" forum, doesnt it? >>
It's medication time. Nurse Ratchid
That seller asked me what I wanted for a reward. I told him that my regular commission rate was 15% in my real world job. He sent me a 1986 Statue of Liberty Set which I eventually resold on ebay for about $150. Did he cheat me because I didn't get 15% of the $8,000 from him? Get real - the guy didn't have to send me anything. It was a very nice gesture on his part. (Your seller didn't even do that, which is pretty shabby, I admit. On the other hand, you were in the process of trying to force a really bad deal due to a mistake, so whaddya expect?)
I bought a bunch of stuff from Hannes Tulving and wrote a check for $1,000 too much. I probably would never have caught the mistake, at least not for years. He promptly returned my $1,000 before I even knew of the error. That's ethical. Was it really great from my perspective? Yes. Did Tulving lose anything by doing it? No. Did I cheat Tulving by accepting my own money back? Duh. Again, how ridiculous, if you think that he should have kept it.
I bought a Proof V-Nickel that had been whizzed, and misrepresented by being listed as a "no problems" coin in blazing proof condition - so bright that he couldn't even get a good photo! I didn't recognize the problem right away, and when I had consulted with some pros 3 weeks after the sale, it past the seller's return period. Some forum members chastised me for numerous things, but dammit, the guy misrepresented the coin. That's unethical. However, that little episode did serve to remind me that it's apparently all about money, and ONLY the legalities are really relevant. Right? Well? Right?
Is there any issue here, other than what's right and what's wrong? Is it possible the two guys on either side of this deal to both be wrong? Apparently so.
Ok, so I am the judge, as you requrested. I think that you were looking to clip an unwitting buyer on an ebay auction. Is it legal to do this? Yes. Do I respect you for it? No, but only because you keep trying to press the point, not because you tried to find yourself a bargain. You are wrong. You are wrong to want to benefit from someone else's mistake. What a prince of a man!
Is the seller wrong to not sell you the coin for a reasonable price? Yes. Is he legally in the wrong? Yes. Is he unethical for telling you stories, giving you the song & dance with his left hand while his right hand is burning up Teletrade. Yes. So, the seller is an unethical, lying, crooked seller. Welcome to ebay.
If you really wanted the coin, you'd have made him a realistic offer when you first found out that he wasn't going to sell it to you. You don't want a resolution to this. No one here can help you. You asked me to be the judge. There you have it.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Responders.....
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs. >>
Ebay ID hockeyfan9
What seems unfortunate to me is that a person should be expected to be financially responsible for a unintentional mistake which caused harm to nobody (not getting something you want at an unintended low price is not what I'd call being harmed- sorry). It would be different if the seller had a record of knowingly listing items with the "wrong" price and then cancelling sales, but there has been no evidence presented that this is the case here. How many bidders would pay, without complaint, $1000 for an item they meant to bid $100 on? Probably no more than the number of sellers who'd let a $1000 item go for $100, due to a typing error in their eBay listing, I'd bet.
In the past month, I had a buyer on eBay who asked to be released from his obligation to pay for the Buy It Now item he bought because he accidentally bought the wrong date coin- he already had an example of the one I had listed for sale. I told him not to worry about it- he didn't need to buy it if it really wasn't something he wanted. I suppose I could have just as easily insisted that he pay anyway (a deal's a deal, right?), but then, the next time I make a mistake, I'd have a hard time justifying to myself asking for somebody else's understanding.
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<< <i>Responders.....
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs. >>
Ebay ID hockeyfan9 >>
Cool. One less potential problem. Anyone else?
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>I wish that everyone who posts here would imagine that they are speaking face to face with the individual they are responding to--it might raise the level of civility on the board. >>
Thank you, Billboat....I couldn't have said it better myself. Life's too short for this kind of thing.
bid-retraction feature on EBAY, but do not want sellers to
have any means to avoid the unfair consequences of a simple
mistake.
If you have a problem with it, why not join the little 0.99 BIN support group from the Superior eBay sales? Mistakes do happen.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
1. He's "greedy" - but the coin belongs to him, so he can be so if he wants.
2. He's a liar. Many are.
3. You got your money back, with a slight delay.
I'm missing where you were screwed. Highly disappointed, perhaps - but screwed? Not IMO.
Neg him and move on. People rarely change to meet our expectations - and it sounds like he's like most people.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
If you check your pms from about 5 years ago, you'll see that you and I exchanged a cordial couple of pms and I tried to help you out with your closing thought about Occam's razor. That said, I think your comments about Paul are 180 degrees off. Paul is one of the most generous guys on the boards. He is a true collector and is surely not in it for the "$$$" as you suggest. If you had ever corresponded with him, you'd realize that he collects for the joy of it. Your venomous comments about him are made in total ignorance. I doubt you'd say them in person and so I think they reflect more on you than on Paul.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Responders.....
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs. >>
Ebay ID hockeyfan9 >>
Cool. One less potential problem. Anyone else? >>
Are you going to block me Jcarney?
It is sad however that people are getting upset. This is just an ethical debate. And although I do not agree with Walkerman, I understand his view point and I believe he is entitled to his opinion. If I upset you Jcarney I am sorry as well. You are always welcome to buy or sell with me, and I guarentee I will treat you with the utmost respect no matter which side of the table I am on!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Responders.....
Stooge did not say he wanted the coin for the Buy It Now price. He did not say that he expected the seller to honor the Buy It Now price. All he said is he wanted a shot at buying the coin and he did not get that shot. Can you people read at all ?
Read his posts......
Ken >>
I think this debate has evolved past responding to the OP's concerns. I know my comments were more directed toward the ethically challenged who would enforce an Ebay deal even when an obvious pricing mistake was made. I'm still waiting for these folks to post their Ebay IDs. >>
Ebay ID hockeyfan9 >>
Cool. One less potential problem. Anyone else? >>
Are you going to block me Jcarney?
It is sad however that people are getting upset. This is just an ethical debate. And although I do not agree with Walkerman, I understand his view point and I believe he is entitled to his opinion. If I upset you Jcarney I am sorry as well. >>
Upset? Why would I be upset? Now if I were a seller who made a listing mistake and someone was trying to take advantage of it....then I'd be upset.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
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<< <i>Is this really the issue people? That my $$$ was tied up or that I got screwed? >>
Getting screwed is when you are out money and receive nothing. You BINed a coin knowing full well that it was a pricing error. You did not get screwed.
Russ, NCNE >>
This actually makes good sense. I agree with Russ's statement.
Potential Buyer (OP) wanted this particular coin - Seller had this coin for sale... Mistakes happen and deal fell through.
Buyer still wants this coin - Seller still has this coin to sell.
It does not seem that the "selling point" was an issue with the buyer, it was acquiring this particular coin.
I believe that the Seller was 'wrong' in not either offering the coin to the Buyer at a new price, or at LEAST notifying buyer that said coin was going to be available through TT if he was still interested. If the coin was NOT FOR SALE, then that's fine.... but if it became For Sale, I believe the OP should have been given the opportunity to be the buyer.
<< <i>There was, in fact, a "meeting of the minds" because each side knew what they were bargaining for and a price was offered and accepted. >>
There is no meeting of the minds in a pricing error situation. I'm surprised that somebody who claims to be an attorney would even make that specious assertion.
Russ, NCNE
All the rest is just silly, IMO.
The thread title alone skeeredededed me, BooBoo.
Anyone have a picture of a damaged coin in honor of our young men and women serving our nation ?
Love is a selfless act !
If you got your money back, I am happy. If you didn't get the coin you attempted to get for the price you paid because the seller refunded the money, too bad... so sad. I am sorry and I wish I could make you feel better.
Beyond that, I ain't makin' no judgement
<< <i>If the TT reserves the seller used before were an order of magnitude off from the BIN price, why wouldn't that be expected to be an error in the listing? Seems simple enough. These things happen. It wasn't like an auction that ran its course over a week and the seller didn't like the realized price. This was the price he/she set in the listing and most obviously in error.
If you have a problem with it, why not join the little 0.99 BIN support group from the Superior eBay sales? Mistakes do happen. >>
[sarcasm] oh yeah, GOOD POINT........hey Superior, where's my 1893-S AU-50 Morgan for $100 BIN?.....wah wah. I never got it. Yeah!...Like I knew THAT would show up in the mail. [/sarcasm]
ok stop right there. doesn't this make you say "hmm, maybe a mistake occurred"?
"The coin is not for sale" is now FOR SALE ON TELETRADE! Why was it NOT OFFERED to me, ME
why didn't YOU MAKE an offer?
If it was not for sale and the listing was in error, how did it appear on TT, in just over 1 month?
hate to tell ya, but i can think of perfectly legitimate scenarios why this could happen.
the coin hammered at $2,600 on TT and DID NOT SELL! Then was relisted again and hammered at $2,200 and DID NOT SELL!
these facts are completely irrelevant.
finally,
Why was the coin NOT FOR SALE...because the seller is greedy.
sorry, this sounds like a venemous comment to me.
bottom line: if the coin's so important to paul, pick up the phone & call bob, & offer him $3000.
but DON'T makes complaints like this on a public forum. it accomplishes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, & makes you look like a fool.
K S
Based on what I have read, there could NEVER be a meeting of the minds between this buyer and this seller.......
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<< <i>I am amazed that you believe you got screwed. >>
Screwed out of a top pop coin, yes.
Let me set something straight. I was pretty harsh with eBay because this gal acted like she didn't care, and was going to forward my livechat with safeharbor, and I said to her that I wanted something done but didn't feel that I needed to see this guys acct. completely suspended. Whatever you may believe, this girl stated to me that she could see that it gets suspended. I said no and asked that the entire auction be dis-missed, which did not happen. I was worried about retaliatory negative feedback.
Later, Paul. >>
Paul, I feel your pain but in all honesty....mistakes happen, albiet it might have gone over a little more smoothly if you had gotten on the phone with the seller.
Heck, I had something similar happen to me a while back after listing a series of coins and then had to leave on a business trip and have my wife finish the listings. Pictures of the same date coins but of a particular VAM. Buyer was a forum member who graciously let me off the hook at the time. I ended up selling it to him at a later date at his pricing when I found another.
But, not everyone has had this done to the extent of Superior....they didn't even do anything when hundreds of thousand plus dollar coins went for dollar bin's....
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
<< <i>i think your a sniveling, sneering, greedy little weasel whose only goal in all this is to make a few bucks, since you didn't, your whining & bellyaching. you obviously are completely clueless about collecting something for the enjoyment of it, & only know how to measure your worth & your happiness in terms of $$$
since you ask my opinion, personally i think you should up, & take your whimpering, whiny complaints OFF THE FORUM.
yeah the seller was wrong, but so are YOU, & 2 wrongs don't make a right.
get over it, & if you don't know how to do something just for enjoyment, STOP DOING IT
your no coin collector if you can only measure your "success" by how much $$$ you make (or lose), i can tell you that.
K S >>
I can't believe that someone would leave a post like this. Where did I say I was looking to make a few bucks? I was buying the coin to put into my registry set.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.