Experts disagree with PCGS designation`s !

foxxze · April 3, 2007 3:30AM

Befor Stack`s bought out Q. David Bowers company , I saw numerous references to PCGS slabbed Full Head Standing Liberty Quarters in

his fixed pricelist and auction descriptions as

being 90% head or 95% full head . I was both amazed and relieved to know that a man of such fame and standing in the numismatic world

could point out with complete candor that not all Quarters PCGS deemed as F.H. were !

J.H. Cline , the acknowledged leading expert on Standing Liberty Quarters : states repeatedly in his book , "STANDING LIBERTY QUARTERS" , that there are

many instances with which

he disagree`s with the F.H. designation on PCGS and NGC graded coins . He refer`s to "host`s" of coins in Full Head holders from both major services

that are not F.H. ; the 1923 for example , " I disagree with possibly as many as 1/2 of the pieces that are in MS65 FH and MS66 FH holders and feel that

they sould not be FH " .

In fact , he comment`s repeatedly on date after date that he disagree`s with the full head designation on nearly 50% of the pieces

slabbed !

R. Tomaska is acknowledged as the single formost living authority on Franklin Half Dollars and has recently REPEATEDLY stated , in writting , in his

newsletters

that he is uncomfortable with the inconsistancies he see`s in the TPG`s FBL designations .

IF THESE EXPERTS ARE QUESTIONING THE TPG`s ABILITY TO GET IT RIGHT -THEN YOU SHOULD TOO

Zoins · April 3, 2007 3:32AM

Good opportunity to cherry pick?

Could the experts create a database of TPG cert numbers with their opinions on the designation?

ricko · April 3, 2007 3:39AM

Would that be a grading of the grades?????? Cheers, RickO

Zoins · April 3, 2007 3:41AM

<< Would that be a grading of the grades?????? >>

Could be or it could just be a separate grade leveraging an existing unique identifier.

DennisH · April 3, 2007 3:57AM

Each individual is entitled to his or her opinion, right?

Zoins · April 3, 2007 4:00AM

<< Each individual is entitled to his or her opinion, right? >>

Sure and a database of cert numbers would allow others to aggregate their opinions of particular coins.

TwoSides2aCoin · April 3, 2007 4:07AM

Ownership sometimes deducts a point instead of adding it.
Experience is still the best teacher

ricko · April 3, 2007 4:50AM

Great, then we have a compilation of opinions... which, in fact, we have now. And again, opinions are like anal openings.. we all have one. This is of value only to speculators, flippers and the people who cannot or will not grade. A piece of paper and a hunk of plastic.. ooooo I feel all warm and fuzzy now. Cheers, RickO

MrEureka · April 3, 2007 4:58AM

I think what Cline is disagreeing with is more the definintion of FH than the actual implementation of the standard. Of course he could come here and clarify it himself, but based on his comments he may have been preemptively bammed.

flaminio · April 3, 2007 5:12AM

<< disagree`s >>

I disagree with your use of the back-quote. Don't make me bring out Bob the Angry Flower on you!

bushmaster8 · April 3, 2007 5:21AM

Yes Mr. Foxxzzee, the Emperor has no clothes!

Jcarney · April 3, 2007 5:25AM

<< Would that be a grading of the grades?????? Cheers, RickO >>

Well, Rick Snow does this with his Eagle Eye service for Indian Head Cents. I could see where a similar service from J.H. Cline for SLQs or Rick Tomaska for Franklins could be worthwhile.

Edit for spelling.

bushmaster8 · April 3, 2007 5:52AM

Do we really need an expert to tell us what we can plainly see with our own eyes?

Just don't buy the thousands of Franklins out there that PCGS has deemed FBL, that in reality, are not FBL!

Zoins · April 3, 2007 5:54AM

<< Do we really need an expert to tell us what we can plainly see with our own eyes? >>

Yes! If we didn't, TPGs wouldn't have any business

DennisH · April 3, 2007 5:58AM

"Just don't buy the thousands of Franklins out there that PCGS has deemed FBL, that in reality, are not FBL! "

Ditto for Full Steps Jeffersons!

Shamika · April 3, 2007 6:01AM

We all have our own ideas of what constitutes full strikes. I have to laugh at times when I read an auction house describing various Buffalo nickels as "fully struck" or having "needle sharp definition". And they ALL do it including ANR.

MrEureka · April 3, 2007 6:42AM

And they ALL do it including ANR.

Cut them some slack now that they're gone. Sheeze, next thing you know, they'll be complaining about Thomas Elder and the Chapmans.

Russ · April 3, 2007 8:14AM

I'm shocked!

Russ, NCNE

bushmaster8 · April 3, 2007 8:23AM

Let me ask you Russ:

Have you seen many, or even any, PCGS proofs designated Cameo, that simply were not really Cameo?

Russ · April 3, 2007 8:31AM

<< Have you seen many, or even any, PCGS proofs designated Cameo, that simply were not really Cameo? >>

Yes, and I've seen DCAMs that were not deep cameo. Nothing that was graded recently, though.

Russ, NCNE

foxxze · April 3, 2007 8:38AM

<< 

<< Good opportunity to cherry pick?

Could the experts create a database of TPG cert numbers with their opinions on the designation? >>

Sounds like he disagrees on the down side. So he feels the designation is given but not deserved. Wouldn't be a cherrypick as you are either going to pay for the designation on the holder anyway, or try to find someone who will sell it ignoring the plastic designation and then you would have to sell it based on the designation on the holder.

Not ideal either way.

Cherrypick would be if it was FH but not designated.

That said, if Kline disagrees with the designation, is he sending them back for a downgrade attempt or is he selling them at lower prices based on HIS opinion (or, is he letting the plastic sell the coin)? >>

Mr. Cline sez that if he disagree`s with the F.H. designation; he simply has nothing to do with the coin .

foxxze · April 3, 2007 8:41AM

<< 

<< disagree`s >>

I disagree with your use of the back-quote. Don't make me bring out Bob the Angry Flower on you! >>

"And again, opinions are like anal openings.. we all have one. "......is this the back-quote you are referring too ?

foxxze · April 3, 2007 8:47AM

Each one of us could put pressure on the TPG`s to clean up their act`s .

D I E

Demand that they do a better job -

Insist that there deffinitions become more standardized -

Enforce your right to get what you pay for -

MrEureka · April 3, 2007 8:52AM

Enforce your right to get what you pay for -

PCGS delivers everything they promise to deliver. It's your expectations that are out of line.

coinkat · April 3, 2007 8:56AM

Experts can and will often disagree... especially with grading.

Grading is an opinion and some opinions are better than others. As I have said many times here- Grading has a subjective component and that will never change. As collectors we need to deal with it.

foxxze · April 3, 2007 9:11AM

PCGS delivers everything they promise to deliver. It's your expectations that are out of line.

..I never considered this ;

lowering my expectations , being less demanding ........

I`m expecting too much you say ehhh ? don`t sweat the small stuff you mean ?? making a mountian out of a moe-hill you think ???

leothelyon · April 3, 2007 1:45PM

<< Each one of us could put pressure on the TPG`s to clean up their act`s .

D I E

Demand that they do a better job -

Insist that there deffinitions become more standardized -

Enforce your right to get what you pay for - >>

And don't be surprised when those designations vanish into thin air! I'm certain this will be the case if too many of those mis-attributed coins end up back in PCGS's lap. Bowers and Merena auctions and any other major auction house who don't accept returns on certified coins. They are playing the larger role with what's coming back to PCGS. And they will eventually take away something the investors have enjoyed long enough. I've been screaming foul for 4 years with the FS designation for Jefferson nickels. It was a bad idea from the beginning. It won't take too much longer for PCGS to realize those designations are a nonprofitable service. Someone recently paid over 6 grand for a 1938-S PCGS MS67FS that's clearly not a FS coin. It's just a matter of time when that coin falls into the hands of a true coin collector.

Leo

foxxze · April 3, 2007 11:45PM

Leo ,

I was impressed with previous comments you have made befor - but now you went and have said something that is so true and cut`s to the core so profoundly - i could just cry !

Thank you so very much for telling it like it is !

RichieURich · April 3, 2007 11:48PM

A simple solution: buy the coin, not the holder.

DrWho · April 3, 2007 11:55PM

i agree with the inconsistency. maybe if they spend more than 60 seconds on what they would call 'common' would help. okay they give it 120 seconds. on a rarity they'll spend more time. on a modern, 10 seconds.

and i know you aren't looking for sympathy, with your situation, however i would say that you were looking to an upgrade of the coins WORTH, via grade, and that's just plain greedy. and when you're greedy........................................ i don't think you were testing them for accuracy in grading. IMHO, and without malice.

foxxze · April 4, 2007 12:07AM

.. Dr Who ............... who the heck is greedy ? Mr. Bower`s ? Mr. Cline ? Mr. Tomaska ??

TwoSides2aCoin · April 4, 2007 12:15AM

Let me change my first post with:

Ownership MAKES a point, not adds or deducts.

Key point : Designation

flaminio · April 4, 2007 2:36AM

<< Each one of us could put pressure on the TPG`s to clean up their act`s. >>

OK, that's enough.

First of all, the back-quote is the character under the tilde, next to the 1 at the top left of the keyboard. It is not the same as the apostrophe, which is located toward the middle right.

Now, here's your Angry Flower:

Shortgapbob · April 4, 2007 2:41AM

To me, it almost seems like the grading services are doing more with grading coins than they truly have the capability to do. Of course, they providing the services that they currently do to meet market demand. However, with the large amount of coins that graders receive (especially rolls of moderns), the grades only have 5-6 seconds to look at coins. It seems to me that they currently do not have the ability to accurately provide certain designations, or even grade accurately on a single point scale. It almost makes me wish that designations would be left to collectors and dealers until the grading services can do what it takes to become more accurate in these areas......like having more time to closely examine these types of coins and provide a better quality service for the money hobbyists are spending on grading. Sometimes, I even wish grading would revert back to a broader scale, where there was only MS-60, MS-63, and MS-65.....lol.

However, the market demand will dictate what grading services provide to customers. Only if the hobby completely loses respect for the designations, indicated by a loss of premiums for the designations, will something change in these services that the TPGs provide.

foxxze · April 4, 2007 3:21AM

<< 

<< Each one of us could put pressure on the TPG`s to clean up their act`s. >>

OK, that's enough.

First of all, the back-quote is the character under the tilde, next to the 1 at the top left of the keyboard. It is not the same as the apostrophe, which is located toward the middle right.

Now, here's your Angry Flower:

>>

........o.k ! gottcha

MrEureka · April 4, 2007 6:09AM

3...
2...
1...

Poof!

Ronyahski · April 4, 2007 10:37AM

My takeaway is not so much that the TPGs are struggling with setting standards and demonstrating consistency in meeting those standards with the grading of designations, which I believe to be true, as much as it is about the collecting public beginning to reject the notion that designations should be as valuable as they are now.

Part of the value of designations was generated by putting them on slabs and weighting them heavily in registry ratings. Once you get past that, maybe in the end they are just not as important to collectors as they have become. Are we just howling at the moon?

bushmaster8 · April 4, 2007 10:57AM

<< ... it is about the collecting public beginning to reject the notion that designations should be as valuable as they are now.

Part of the value of designations was generated by putting them on slabs and weighting them heavily in registry ratings. Once you get past that, maybe in the end they are just not as important to collectors as they have become. Are we just howling at the moon? >>

I know what you are saying Ronyahaski, but the designations did have real value at one time. Remember how when FBL's first were applied to PCGS Franklins, the bottom fell out of Non-FBL's. Or how you could not give away a silver Roosevelt w/o FB's for about a year after that designation was introduced?

Those coins have recovered somewhat since then, and I believe it is in part for the reason you are stating. People are seeing so MUCH inconsistency, that they are throwing their hands in the air and saying "I give up... it is just not worth the aggravation."

Aegis3 · April 4, 2007 11:00AM

<< Part of the value of designations was generated by putting them on slabs and weighting them heavily in registry ratings. Once you get past that, maybe in the end they are just not as important to collectors as they have become. Are we just howling at the moon? >>

I view the designations on slabs to be just as important as the grades on the slabs.

Ronyahski · April 4, 2007 11:51AM

<< 

<< ... it is about the collecting public beginning to reject the notion that designations should be as valuable as they are now.

Part of the value of designations was generated by putting them on slabs and weighting them heavily in registry ratings. Once you get past that, maybe in the end they are just not as important to collectors as they have become. Are we just howling at the moon? >>

I know what you are saying Ronyahaski, but the designations did have real value at one time. Remember how when FBL's first were applied to PCGS Franklins, the bottom fell out of Non-FBL's. Or how you could not give away a silver Roosevelt w/o FB's for about a year after that designation was introduced?

Those coins have recovered somewhat since then, and I believe it is in part for the reason you are stating. People are seeing so MUCH inconsistency, that they are throwing their hands in the air and saying "I give up... it is just not worth the aggravation." >>

Yup, agree, but go back even further, before slabs. I collected FS Jeffs in the 70's and FBL Frankies in the 80's. For a very modest premium, you could acquire these coins, not because they had the designation on the slab (not invented yet), but because they had a better strike. Didn't need the slab to tell you so. Maybe what goes around comes around, de ja vu all over again.

Ronyahski · April 4, 2007 11:51AM

<< 

<< Part of the value of designations was generated by putting them on slabs and weighting them heavily in registry ratings. Once you get past that, maybe in the end they are just not as important to collectors as they have become. Are we just howling at the moon? >>

I view the designations on slabs to be just as important as the grades on the slabs. >>

Why?

Myqqy · April 4, 2007 12:05PM

Poof!

I wonder what the record is for poofed threads in one day. And why is bob so angry?

foxxze · April 4, 2007 12:18PM

you fellers are prematurly pooffing this thread ; it`s almost like you are beckoning to the moderators to do so ; some kind of sick sadistic

yearning i guess ........... must be the same guy`s that slow down and gawk at a horrific car accident

take Steve Kent for another example of a series EXPERT ; he was the MAIN MAN of full step nickles , he was a pioneer in the field and dealt in them way befor the TPG`s were slabbing them . I see him at show`s every now and then - if ever there was a FULL STEP nickle EXPERT ; he IS ONE !

he told me the services are all over the board with their designations: he even told me PCGS would usually grade a nickle 1 point higher if you use MS70 or some other mild cleaner on the nickles before you sent them in ..........

Aegis3 · April 4, 2007 2:17PM

<< 

<< 

<< Part of the value of designations was generated by putting them on slabs and weighting them heavily in registry ratings. Once you get past that, maybe in the end they are just not as important to collectors as they have become. Are we just howling at the moon? >>

I view the designations on slabs to be just as important as the grades on the slabs. >>

Why? >>

Designations are just another thing on a small label which are better to determine for oneself, just like grade and condition.

bushmaster8 · April 4, 2007 11:48PM

<< Designations are just another thing on a small label which are better to determine for oneself, just like grade and condition. >>

What about the designations that are wrong in the eyes of those who are experts in the field?

Or are you saying you feel the TPG designation is always correct??

Aegis3 · April 5, 2007 5:06AM

<< 

<< Designations are just another thing on a small label which are better to determine for oneself, just like grade and condition. >>

What about the designations that are wrong in the eyes of those who are experts in the field?

Or are you saying you feel the TPG designation is always correct?? >>

I seriously doubt that. Frankly I just don't care what designation they give it. Just like the stated grade.

bushmaster8 · April 5, 2007 5:18AM

Let me get this straight Aegis3. First you say:

<< I view the designations on slabs to be just as important as the grades on the slabs. >>

Then, you follow up with:

<< Frankly I just don't care what designation they give it. Just like the stated grade. >>

Is it just me? Or are you talking nonsense??

Aegis3 · April 5, 2007 5:50AM

<< Let me get this straight Aegis3. First you say:

<< I view the designations on slabs to be just as important as the grades on the slabs. >>

Then, you follow up with:

<< Frankly I just don't care what designation they give it. Just like the stated grade. >>

Is it just me? Or are you talking nonsense??

>>

I'm saying I find both equally important, and the level of importance is none.

sonoranmonsoon · April 5, 2007 9:55AM

<< Befor Stack`s bought out Q. David Bowers company , I saw numerous references to PCGS slabbed Full Head Standing Liberty Quarters in

his fixed pricelist and auction descriptions as

being 90% head or 95% full head . I was both amazed and relieved to know that a man of such fame and standing in the numismatic world

could point out with complete candor that not all Quarters PCGS deemed as F.H. were !

J.H. Cline , the acknowledged leading expert on Standing Liberty Quarters : states repeatedly in his book , "STANDING LIBERTY QUARTERS" , that there are

If they are that upset, let them start their own TPG service. We will be happy to critisize them.

many instances with which

he disagree`s with the F.H. designation on PCGS and NGC graded coins . He refer`s to "host`s" of coins in Full Head holders from both major services

that are not F.H. ; the 1923 for example , " I disagree with possibly as many as 1/2 of the pieces that are in MS65 FH and MS66 FH holders and feel that

they sould not be FH " .

In fact , he comment`s repeatedly on date after date that he disagree`s with the full head designation on nearly 50% of the pieces

slabbed !

R. Tomaska is acknowledged as the single formost living authority on Franklin Half Dollars and has recently REPEATEDLY stated , in writting , in his

newsletters

that he is uncomfortable with the inconsistancies he see`s in the TPG`s FBL designations .

IF THESE EXPERTS ARE QUESTIONING THE TPG`s ABILITY TO GET IT RIGHT -THEN YOU SHOULD TOO >>

foxxze · April 5, 2007 11:26AM

tHANKS SONARMAN ............. sorry to hear you lost 15 grand in Silver Dollars ......

foxxze · April 7, 2007 9:07AM

nobody else got any comments ??

Experts disagree with PCGS designation`s !

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

Leave a Comment