Dentil Tracks on Bust Half Dollars. Have we run into Mental Fatigue or the Gordian Knot?
BiddlesBank
Posts: 721 ✭
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TITLE EDITED & MESSAGE EDITED TO REFRAME THE QUESTION.
Does anyone know what causes those little D shaped indentations found on the obverse of some later dated bust half dollars?
See photo below.
TITLE EDITED & MESSAGE EDITED TO REFRAME THE QUESTION.
Does anyone know what causes those little D shaped indentations found on the obverse of some later dated bust half dollars?
See photo below.
0
Comments
Over a number of years, Edgar Souders did extensive research on these dentil tracks. I believe he found the answer as to what caused them. Early on in his studies, he noticed that every coin with these tracks had some area of the rim that looked visually wrong. He calls these rim areas "funky". After making many large overlays of many specimens showing the tracks, he found that somehow each overlay could be shifted and rotated until rim parts matched up with the tracks. Edgar wrote, "... I will state that I believe every Capped Bust half dollar, with dentil tracks, and "funky" edge somewhere along the dentilation is a no question double struck coin.".
Refer to BUST HALF FEVER second edition pages 254-258 for a much more detailed account.
I see the name got sanitized in the last 7 years or so when they were previously referred to a Pecker Tracks. I never did like that name so "dentil tracks" work for me.
Do you have any good photos of "dentil tracks." I remember having an 1833 MS63 that had really strong rims and well imprinted dentil tracks on the lower bust but no can find.
Anyway I found a few weakly imprinted ones on the 1838 50c I just purchased and it arose my curiosity again.
Some time ago, "Wood" was added, because in email discussions some of the email services were blocking "pecker" as coming from a porn site. True story.
I do not own a Woodpecker track Bustie. Double struck CBHs are very rare, and they command a large premium.
Dentil Tracks is a question that needs to be open for discussion and explanation. Granted Souders apparently has addressed the issue but the Sounders paraphrase above is confusing to me. (I wish someone would find an excuse for sending me Souders 2nd edition.)
Below is a photo of a PCGS MS63 1833 bust half dollar with 3 imprints in on the cheek. This same pattern has occurred many times on the strikes in the 1833 and 1834 years if my memory serves me right. Probably in other years also but for sure in those two years. I have seen some dramatic Dentil tracks on Ms Liberty in MS grades where the imprint is un-mistakable.
So here is my problem: The striking die dentils are intagalio, otherwise cut below the surface of the striking die. But the Dentil Tracks look to be made by dentils in relief which is the opposite. How is this explained?
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>Wouldn't it just suggest storage in a bag with other bust halves? They're well known with those dang Morgans. >>
Aegis3
A very worthwhile thought. On some bust halves the dentil tracks have been rather deep but still a possibility.
<< <i>Even if someone put this coin in a vise against another, it wouldn't leave dentil marks in that pattern because of the varied relief of the portrait (if they were incuse). If dentils are in relief, my guess is a double strike, the first offcenter, the second strike could not obliterate all of the deep dentil impressions. Neat coin Slumlord, what is your assessment? >>
Hi Nysoto
Just for clarification. Are you saying the first strike was approximately 50% off center. Then when the coin was fetched out of the bin it was restruck squarely on center the 2nd time and the only remaining evidence of the 1st strike is the row of dentils impressed on the bust. Otherwise the left side of the coin was completely restruck to it's now existing condition?
No crow bait. Just a few clarifications requested.
BB
<< <i>Wouldn't it just suggest storage in a bag with other bust halves? They're well known with those dang Morgans. >>
No, because the other Bust halves did not have reeded edges. They had lettered edges.
The half in question looks to me like it might (repeat, might) have received a very light second strike where just the denticled border of the die gently kissed the coin. Imagine a scenario whereby a coin was struck but failed to eject properly from the coining chamber, and hung up laying at an angle on the edge of the open collar. The press operator/ coin feeder yells "STOP," and the two guys swinging the arm of the screw press pull up. The die comes down just far enough to gently touch the coin, imparting just a few denticles. Close enough for government work, and the coin is released.
TD
Send me a picture of the reverse of the piece, and I'll see if I can prove it is genuine.
TD
<< <i>.
Dentil Tracks is a question that needs to be open for discussion and explanation. ...So here is my problem: The striking die dentils are intagalio, otherwise cut below the surface of the striking die. But the Dentil Tracks look to be made by dentils in relief which is the opposite. How is this explained?
BB, Tom and gang,
I've sold a few Franklins with those marks out of a hoard I purchased last year. I still have a few. These marks are not limited to bust half dollars.
<< <i>Anyone care to speculate as to the cause of these marks? Both services claim that they are post mint damage. While I don't feel that this is a double struck coin, surely this isn't as PCGS suggested? On all counts.
Hey you got an explanation. PCGS won't slab it even though it's happened at the mint. I understand not slabbing, but they could have at least made a nice Drink Coaster that would be a great collector piece
Not all employees follow protocol.
Some don't even no how to pronounce it, let alone what it means
Re: Explanation of "wreath on head coin-1803" , that was made by us mint employee.
WORD
If not, does it match a Bust Dollar?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Is the curvature of the tracks the same as the edge of a Bust Half? If not, does it match a Bust Dollar? >>
Andy
I did an overlay of Slumlord's 1803. Looks like a match so far.
BB
Note the rim dings at K5 and K10. Those may be impressions of the open collar. A closer look- first at K5
and at K10-
<< <i>
<< <i>Wouldn't it just suggest storage in a bag with other bust halves? They're well known with those dang Morgans. >>
No, because the other Bust halves did not have reeded edges. They had lettered edges.
The half in question looks to me like it might (repeat, might) have received a very light second strike where just the denticled border of the die gently kissed the coin. Imagine a scenario whereby a coin was struck but failed to eject properly from the coining chamber, and hung up laying at an angle on the edge of the open collar. The press operator/ coin feeder yells "STOP," and the two guys swinging the arm of the screw press pull up. The die comes down just far enough to gently touch the coin, imparting just a few denticles. Close enough for government work, and the coin is released.
TD >>
Damn. Yep, forgot for a second those bagmarked Morgans get reed marks, not dentil marks.
A second idea, for some cases, these could be a corrected partial brockage, especially if the dentil impression is incused and opposite.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
I may be wrong but I think this diagram will help.
If in error I stand to be corrected.
BB
TD
<< <i>Capt. Henway has mirrored the thoughts of several experts who looked at this coin at Baltimore a year ago.
Note the rim dings at K5 and K10. Those may be impressions of the open collar. A closer look- first at K5
and at K10-
Without even seeing the coin!
;-)
TD
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Notice how the dentil tracks have the dentils pointed in the wrong direction? >>
Okay Andy. If you hadn't said anything we could have lived in blissful ignorance for a while.
So Slumlord sent me closeups which I croped and am posting here.
1803 50c closeups on photo posted above.
A lot !
Even if I'm dumber than a door knob, it's some good poop.
Hey Slumlord
I just want to make sure before we tackle the problem.
<< <i>
<< <i>Anyone care to speculate as to the cause of these marks? Both services claim that they are post mint damage. While I don't feel that this is a double struck coin, surely this isn't as PCGS suggested? On all counts.
Hey you got an explanation. PCGS won't slab it even though it's happened at the mint. I understand not slabbing, but they could have at least made a nice Drink Coaster that would be a great collector piece
Wait a sec.....
Isn't that a small 3????
For all it's worth, I imagine that individual dentils on such a punch would be oval, not pointed.
Edited to say that that's not it. The dentil tracks would be incused, not raised. But I'll leave my comments and hope they help in some way.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The half in question looks to me like it might (repeat, might) have received a very light second strike where just the denticled border of the die gently kissed the coin. Imagine a scenario whereby a coin was struck but failed to eject properly from the coining chamber, and hung up laying at an angle on the edge of the open collar. The press operator/ coin feeder yells "STOP," and the two guys swinging the arm of the screw press pull up. The die comes down just far enough to gently touch the coin, imparting just a few denticles. Close enough for government work, and the coin is released.
The 1803 half could have received a second strike at an angle as described above, but strong enough to impart a lot more denticles. That sure looks mint-made to me. See if there are small dents on the reverse rim about opposite the ends of the arc of denticles. If so, this could represent where the coin was pressed down against the lip of the open collar. Send me a picture of the reverse of the piece, and I'll see if I can prove it is genuine. TD >>
So far I have to go with CaptHenway. There may be other considerations but it is worth exhausting the most plausible first.
If I understand CaptHenway the white area is where the planchet normally rests in the collar. The coin is partially ejected and rests on the edge of the cup. The die descends but just enough to kiss in the dentils. In probability the coin is tilted as it is struck so the edge dentils enter at a slight angle.
Andy then questions as to why the dentils are shaped the way they are.
That is the next question? BB
Here are a few more images for your consideration.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/Crackshot7/1824-50c-3X.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/Crackshot7/HalfOffCenter-Obv-1829.jpg
This should give more relevant data concerning dentil tracks. Note that on the 1824, aside from the tracks, you can make out the top of Miss Liberty's head as well as the backs of the Cap ties just above and left of the numeral 1 in date.
Also, very often when examining the remnants of the dentils from the earlier strike you will note that they are RAISED UP and into the devices on the coin. In other words, they were present on the planchet before the final striking occurred. The 1824 image is a piece from Henry H. - Henry hope it was OK to post this image.
- Edgar
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/Crackshot7/HalfOffCenter-Obv-1829.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/Crackshot7/1824-50c-3X.jpg
Edgar
It could be some sort of clashed die? There should be other matching examples as well. it is very noteworthy that those denticles are raised. I don't know, it is too late to try and sort out the mystery, and again, Fred probably has a quick answer.
<< <i>Ok, let me try this image thing again and see if my image post works!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/Crackshot7/HalfOffCenter-Obv-1829.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/Crackshot7/1824-50c-3X.jpg
Edgar >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Ok, let me try this image thing again and see if my image post works!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/Crackshot7/HalfOffCenter-Obv-1829.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f133/Crackshot7/1824-50c-3X.jpg
Edgar >>
2 sides is that yours?
Edited to add- the reverse marks are lined up with the arc of the coin. If you follow the dentil tracks on the obverse in a continuing arc, the reverse marks are found at the end on the reverse, which is why CaptHenway, myself and others believe that these reverse marks were caused by the collar when the coin was pinned against it during ejection. The mystery is- why are the obverse dentil tracks facing opposite?
<< <i>On the 1803, the dentils are pointed backward as MR Eureka suggested. It looks like the coin rolled across the die, leaving the arc of the dentils backward. If it was a simple case of the coin hitting the hammer die during ejection, the dentils across the face would look like the dentils around the circumference of the coin. I believe that the marks on the reverse are from the collar. Edited to add- the reverse marks are lined up with the arc of the coin. If you follow the dentil tracks on the obverse in a continuing arc, the reverse marks are found at the end on the reverse, which is why CaptHenway, myself and others believe that these reverse marks were caused by the collar when the coin was pinned against it during ejection. The mystery is- why are the obverse dentil tracks facing opposite? >>
Slumlord
I would not, at this point, concede that the dentil tracks are reversed as they appear, as noted by Andy. CaptHenway's explanation is still the most plausible. So I am adding these illustrations again for consideration.
Also it should be noted at this juncture that, as per Taxay and George E Sellers, the edge lettering was applied first to planchet before the actual striking. Now note that on most, or at least many, bust half dollars there is a raised ridge around the edge of the coin. This leads me to believe that the striking die was just a tad smaller than the planchet.
So the striking die only has little pointed raised edges as per the diagram below. If these are struck into a coin laying on the collar at a slight angle it is possible the pattern imprinted might be slightly deceptive in appearance.
<< <i>So the striking die only has little pointed raised edges as per the diagram below. If these are struck into a coin laying on the collar at a slight angle it is possible the pattern imprinted might be slightly deceptive in appearance. >>
Coins struck in 1803 didn't have a collar.
<< <i>
<< <i>So the striking die only has little pointed raised edges as per the diagram below. If these are struck into a coin laying on the collar at a slight angle it is possible the pattern imprinted might be slightly deceptive in appearance. >>
Coins struck in 1803 didn't have a collar. >>
There was an "open collar," a steel plate with a hole in it that was bigger than the finished coin so that the coin did not get jammed into it. It was used to help position the planchet atop the lower die, and thereby cut down on off-center strikes. It was not supposed to be a part of the strike, but could be if a coin or planchet overlapped it.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>So the striking die only has little pointed raised edges as per the diagram below. If these are struck into a coin laying on the collar at a slight angle it is possible the pattern imprinted might be slightly deceptive in appearance. >>
Coins struck in 1803 didn't have a collar. >>
Ziggy
The flow of the dialog has employed the term collar. The term collar may be a bit of a misnomer but suitable for this discussion. You are probably referring to the closed collar of the Reeded Edge 1836-1839 that imparted the reeding at the time of striking.
Quoting from Taxay, page 96 on the early Philadelphia mint: "The obverse, of course, replaced the cutting cylinder, while the reverse die was mounted in the cup. In 1793, Adam Eckfeldt invented a device for automatically feeding and ejecting the planchets. This is described in detail in B.L.C. Wailes' 1829 journatl , from which we quote:"
Taxay goes on to quote Wailes but I may be corrected on this, the term Open Collar is often referred to as the means used in striking the bust half dollar. Othewise the planchet was struck so as not to force it against a collar or feeding device which would cause it to damage the edge lettering.
BB
Okay, this is where we stand.
1 Nysoto and Fever (suspected author & bust half authority) believe these kinds of dentil tracks are caused by restrikes. Meaning the coin was struck off center and then restruck on center but the 2nd strike was not full enough to obliterate the dentil tracks.
2. CaptHenway believes the coin was struck then partially ejected over the collar and then kissed with the descending die. Apparently several other authorities believe this is possible.
3. Slumlord is concerned that the dentil pattern on the 1803 is reversed of what it should be under either theory.
4. Please correct me if I have mistated any of the above. All comments pertinent to this discussion are posted in this thread.
Are we not looking at the same indentations?
Yes, you are correct. I have been reading this thread with great interest. Get Sheridan to join and we will have the A-List of Capped Bust Half experts sharing their knowledge. One of the best threads in many months!
PS - I think that the dentil tracks look reversed because of an optical illusion. The same impression at the periphery of the coin would look like dentils on a properly struck CBH.
3. Slumlord is not concerned that the dentils are bassackward, he has the coin in hand and can see that this is so. If the coin had been struck by the inside edge of the dentils, the die would have left a similar impression to the shape of the dentils on the rim. This didn't happen. Also, this coin is not a double struck coin like Fever's images. If that had happened, there would be no trace of the collar marks on the reverse. There aren't just collar marks on the reverse. There are collar marks in the correct positions for all this to work.
5. Slumlord is concerned that he has taken to referring to himself in the 3rd person.
But seriously folks, I have been kicking this around all day between catastrophes at work and am now leaning toward this- the coin was jammed against the collar and was hit by the outside edge of the die. This would explain everything, including the dentils and the collar marks on the reverse. Remember that the dentils of the 1803 and the CBHs are shaped differently. This may be what is confusing the issue, like looking at Rorschach tests to determine if you see the vases or the faces.
What was the question, again?
<< <i>Get Sheridan to join >>
Not a chance in he11 of that. Sheridan is familiar with the coin and shrugged and walked away when Henry , Brian , Chris , and Mike started talking in tongues over this.
Compare the shape of the dentils around the rim to the dentils on the CBHs; they are not the same shape. The 03 dentils are much narrower, and this is where the illusion is deceiving.
Slumlord
I apologize if I framed the question in a way that put you on the defensive. That was not my intent. I do not have an theory that I would go to the bank with so I am just trying to moderate the discussion.
However in the above quoted passage, correct me if I am mistaken, is this not what CaptHenway has been proposing? I believe the photo below shows that the coin would have been tilted and only "kissed" by the outside of the die imparting only the dentils as the coin was tilted and then of course jammed as the die descended for the "kiss."
BB