Sorry cohodk, I disagree with your assessment of that half. Would be interested in what you think is "unoriginal" about it. And no, I'm not delving into the cesspool of "market acceptable."
I understand what Andy is saying as well, although we all should know that it is a rhetorical question.
John - When I asked why originality matters, it was not a rhetorical question. I think that 90% of the community takes it as a given that "original is best" without actually having a reason. Thinking it through and articulating one's rationale can be a valuable exercise, and it's well worth sharing.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What Warren says is quite true, and it is disheartening. I see so many fewwer original coins even in the lesser grades (AU55/58) that I collect more of, that I sometimes wonder if it is worth the search. Slabs with dipped and stripped 58's passing as 63+, 63's as 65's and so forth ... or just plain unorigional dipped and stripped super bright coins that might meet a technical grade for surface marks and strike, but have no life left in them.
No, every coin I own is not unquestionably original. In fact, I could question many. Someone here, can't remember who at the moment, talks about "original now". That's probably more true, and for many of even the "buy original" crowd, is probably more of what we really have.
But I guess the most disheartening thought ... or the most hopeful one, depending on whether you're a "glass is half full" or "glass is half empty kind of soul" ... is wheteher or not enough of us will ALWAYS prefer as close to original as available, and will ALWAYS try to make sure that we inform those new to our hobby why it's important to maintain the originality of our coins.
It's kind of like crossing a milestone or a line in life. Once your innocence is lost on something, you can never get it back for that thing again. Ever. The same is true for the coins we protect.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
<< <i>I understand what Andy is saying as well, although we all should know that it is a rhetorical question.
John - When I asked why originality matters, it was not a rhetorical question. I think that 90% of the community takes it as a given that "original is best" without actually having a reason. Thinking it through and articulating one's rationale can be a valuable exercise, and it's well worth sharing. >>
To paraphrase a Lay's potato chip commercial, "we will make more." That is why original, if verifiable is preferable. For the new lab toners, that seem to sprout up like weeds, or the super shiny fake looking NCS'ed gold coins, they seem to be making more every day. Right now the market acceptable look is more popular than ever, what with NCS operating for all to see, and the NCS processed coins selling with full disclosure, often times for decent money, or at least for more than the coins would have fetched before processing. Like the dealer wrote on the website, a high percentage of collectors either don't know, or actually prefer the processed look to the original look, and that is what drives the market.
Precious few coins are verifiable as original, though a good many may have the look. Certain groups of coins have higher odds of that than others, but few are in the 100% category. Show an original looking coin to 100 experts, and in most cases, a few will dissent, or a few will hem and haw and say there is a chance that it might be dipped, and retoned, or touched up with NCS techniques or whatever.
Coins are a reflection of their environment. My favorite coin is in my sig line and it is rather used and crusty. I like that. Its scrip so, to me and other "purists " in the scrip camp, a dug up turd of a coin is precious as it was used by the miner. Thats the mystique.
As to coins......Thats a tough call. As a collector of mostly raw coins or mint sets and commems, to me, I take what I want to collecvt. cleaned or not.
The cleaning for profit thing; that will destroy this hobby more trhan the greed of any poor seller.
Thinking back to when we first became interested in the hobby, shiny cleaned coins looked better at the time. Desiring original coins is learned behavior.
The same extends to original bankwrapped rolls from the 1910's, 1920's and 1930's and later. This poster cringes in the same manner when original bankwrapped rolls are broken up for the "masses." Originality is lost here as well.
There is originality being lost in this hobby in many ways. Even the Cheerios boxes containing the Sacky dollars in its original packaging.
One problem I see is that new collectors may not understand and may even be oblivious to how their unoriginal coins got that way, they just see a coin they like. It's the dealers and/or doctors that that may be catering to an uneducated buyer.
A kid of 1830 is given a half dollar for his birthday. He works it over with sand soap and puts a real nice shine to it. That same coin could be in a collection today and having every collar of the rainbow. No "expert" will convince me that he knows the coin was once "cleaned"
Give it a rest - there's nothing new or original in the show report.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>Give it a rest - there's nothing new or original in the show report. >>
We need to beat this subject to death at least once every week.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <I>Give it a rest - there's nothing new or original in the show report.</I> >>
Oh yes and especially true when smothered in comments about the un-clean masses of coin collectors who lack knowlege. The insult is hurtfull in veiw of the record. Those claiming something akin to a mystic power in coin grading or anything else are veiwed with suspicion . They are fakers.
Comments
siliconvalleycoins.com
Bruce Scher
John - When I asked why originality matters, it was not a rhetorical question. I think that 90% of the community takes it as a given that "original is best" without actually having a reason. Thinking it through and articulating one's rationale can be a valuable exercise, and it's well worth sharing.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No, every coin I own is not unquestionably original. In fact, I could question many. Someone here, can't remember who at the moment, talks about "original now". That's probably more true, and for many of even the "buy original" crowd, is probably more of what we really have.
But I guess the most disheartening thought ... or the most hopeful one, depending on whether you're a "glass is half full" or "glass is half empty kind of soul" ... is wheteher or not enough of us will ALWAYS prefer as close to original as available, and will ALWAYS try to make sure that we inform those new to our hobby why it's important to maintain the originality of our coins.
It's kind of like crossing a milestone or a line in life. Once your innocence is lost on something, you can never get it back for that thing again. Ever. The same is true for the coins we protect.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
<< <i>I understand what Andy is saying as well, although we all should know that it is a rhetorical question.
John - When I asked why originality matters, it was not a rhetorical question. I think that 90% of the community takes it as a given that "original is best" without actually having a reason. Thinking it through and articulating one's rationale can be a valuable exercise, and it's well worth sharing. >>
To paraphrase a Lay's potato chip commercial, "we will make more." That is why original, if verifiable is preferable. For the new lab toners, that seem to sprout up like weeds, or the super shiny fake looking NCS'ed gold coins, they seem to be making more every day. Right now the market acceptable look is more popular than ever, what with NCS operating for all to see, and the NCS processed coins selling with full disclosure, often times for decent money, or at least for more than the coins would have fetched before processing. Like the dealer wrote on the website, a high percentage of collectors either don't know, or actually prefer the processed look to the original look, and that is what drives the market.
Precious few coins are verifiable as original, though a good many may have the look. Certain groups of coins have higher odds of that than others, but few are in the 100% category. Show an original looking coin to 100 experts, and in most cases, a few will dissent, or a few will hem and haw and say there is a chance that it might be dipped, and retoned, or touched up with NCS techniques or whatever.
As to coins......Thats a tough call. As a collector of mostly raw coins or mint sets and commems, to me, I take what I want to collecvt. cleaned or not.
The cleaning for profit thing; that will destroy this hobby more trhan the greed of any poor seller.
Originality cannot be replaced.
The same extends to original bankwrapped rolls from the 1910's, 1920's and 1930's and later. This poster cringes in the same manner when original bankwrapped rolls are broken up for the "masses." Originality is lost here as well.
There is originality being lost in this hobby in many ways. Even the Cheerios boxes containing the Sacky dollars in its original packaging.
Will the Cheerios cereal stand the test of time?
and puts a real nice shine to it. That same coin could be in a collection today and having
every collar of the rainbow. No "expert" will convince me that he knows the coin was once "cleaned"
You are kidding right?
siliconvalleycoins.com
When a dealer puts profit over purity, he is no longer a numismatist.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Give it a rest - there's nothing new or original in the show report. >>
We need to beat this subject to death at least once every week.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <I>Give it a rest - there's nothing new or original in the show report.</I> >>
Oh yes and especially true when smothered in comments about the un-clean masses
of coin collectors who lack knowlege. The insult is hurtfull in veiw of the record.
Those claiming something akin to a mystic power in coin grading or anything else are veiwed
with suspicion . They are fakers.