Strange, unusual or just plain weird things you have seen at a live coin auction

Michigan · March 28, 2007 10:32PM

What are some of the strange, unusual or just plain weird things you have seen at a live coin auction?. I'm thinking not the items being sold
but the human interest interactions in the process.

One thing I saw was someone asking for a lot to be reopened for bidding after another twenty or so lots had already been sold, the auctioneer asked why they should do that and the guy didn't give a straight answer just mumbled to himself and the auctioneer said
sorry I can't do that (I think he was ticked off that the guy would even waste his time with such a request).

tmot99 · March 28, 2007 10:48PM

Laura stop bidding on a $1.5 million coin.

Coxe · March 28, 2007 10:53PM

A guy grabbing his friend's bidder card and continuing to bid after his outbid cut-bid disqualified him from further bidding on the lot.

Someone asking who "the book" was.

kranky · March 28, 2007 10:55PM

This is a story I read about and the dealer who was bidding is a board member. I posted this about 4 years ago but it's appropriate to this thread. (The dollar amounts have been changed, but are proportional to the actual amounts.) I thought it was fascinating.

A dealer wins an auction lot for $20,000, bidding on behalf of a client. Upon being declared the winner of the coin, the dealer tells the auctioneer to raise the price to $32,500. The extra money (and the extra juice) came right out of the client's pocket. The client had no complaint about the dealer's actions. In fact, the client wasn't even surprised by what the dealer did!

Barndog · March 28, 2007 10:58PM

<< This is a story I read about and the dealer who was bidding is a board member. I posted this about 4 years ago but it's appropriate to this thread. (The dollar amounts have been changed, but are proportional to the actual amounts.) I thought it was fascinating.

A dealer wins an auction lot for $20,000, bidding on behalf of a client. Upon being declared the winner of the coin, the dealer tells the auctioneer to raise the price to $32,500. The extra money (and the extra juice) came right out of the client's pocket. The client had no complaint about the dealer's actions. In fact, the client wasn't even surprised by what the dealer did! >>

I think I recall that story...dealer had bids from two clients, something like that?

Coxe · March 28, 2007 11:00PM

I know I would have liked to have been able to raise a bid years back (1996) that I did absentee. The winning bid was $900 hammer with 10% fee. It was the only lot I won in the sale. So my total was $990. Another $10 and I would have avoided about $80 in sales tax. This was before they did things like after auction purchases at Heritage.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 28, 2007 11:02PM

<< This is a story I read about and the dealer who was bidding is a board member. I posted this about 4 years ago but it's appropriate to this thread. (The dollar amounts have been changed, but are proportional to the actual amounts.) I thought it was fascinating.

A dealer wins an auction lot for $20,000, bidding on behalf of a client. Upon being declared the winner of the coin, the dealer tells the auctioneer to raise the price to $32,500. The extra money (and the extra juice) came right out of the client's pocket. The client had no complaint about the dealer's actions. In fact, the client wasn't even surprised by what the dealer did! >>

That's not unusual.

Longacre · March 28, 2007 11:21PM

<< 

<< This is a story I read about and the dealer who was bidding is a board member. I posted this about 4 years ago but it's appropriate to this thread. (The dollar amounts have been changed, but are proportional to the actual amounts.) I thought it was fascinating.

A dealer wins an auction lot for $20,000, bidding on behalf of a client. Upon being declared the winner of the coin, the dealer tells the auctioneer to raise the price to $32,500. The extra money (and the extra juice) came right out of the client's pocket. The client had no complaint about the dealer's actions. In fact, the client wasn't even surprised by what the dealer did! >>

That's not unusual. >>

I had a phone discussion with that dealer about this issue, and honestly I still don't understand the rationale.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 28, 2007 11:31PM

<< I had a phone discussion with that dealer about this issue, and honestly I still don't understand the rationale.

>>

Let's say the dealer in question is representing two bidders -

The first has a max bid of $30,000.

The second has a max bid of $32,500.

The dealer bids on the floor and wins the lot at $20,000. If he were to continue to execute the bids as given, then he'd raise his hand several more increments bidding first for customer 1 then customer 2 until he reached the 2nd customer's winning level.

By saying 'make it "32.5" he's simply cutting to the inevitable conclusion.

Heywood · March 28, 2007 11:42PM

Wouldn't it make more sense for the representative to tell his two clients that he will only take the best bid to auction, and have one set max goining into the actual auction?

darktone · March 28, 2007 11:49PM

<< Wouldn't it make more sense for the representative to tell his two clients that he will only take the best bid to auction, and have one set max goining into the actual auction? >>

I agree. Or better yet only represent one client on each coin or would that short your commission if the second client wished to bid a higher amount and he ended up going to another dealer to execute his bids?

ColonialCoinUnion · March 28, 2007 11:58PM

<< 

<< Wouldn't it make more sense for the representative to tell his two clients that he will only take the best bid to auction, and have one set max goining into the actual auction? >>

I agree. Or better yet only represent one client on each coin or would that short your commission if the second client wished to bid a higher amount and he ended up going to another dealer to execute his bids? >>

I said this scenario isn't unusual for some dealers - that doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't.

Taking bids from two clients on the same coin seems inappropriate to me.

In addition, collectors hire a dealer to represent them for, presumably, expert advice and guidance about what to pay. They don't usually hire someone just to stick his hand in the air. So a dealer taking bids from multiple clients and saying "OK" when he knows well in advance that the lower number has no chance to win is disingenuous at best.

MrEureka · March 29, 2007 12:16AM

Taking bids from two clients on the same coin seems inappropriate to me.

I do it all the time and have never had a problem. Sometimes, I'll do exactly what Kranky describes. Other times, I may try to discourage one of the clients from bidding. It depends on the clients involved and the extent to which they will be relying on my advice in calculating bids.

Scavenger · March 29, 2007 12:18AM

To me that sounds as crooked as a dogs hind leg. The dealer ups the ante to get a higher commision. The auction house is no better, increasing their cut too.

Nysoto · March 29, 2007 12:38AM

Would discouraging an underbidder from bidding to obtain a lower price for their best customer be collusion? What should the consignor do if he found out about this? The dealer in the earlier example has reminded us that collusion is illegal, although everyone knows most people involved in this hobby/business has taken part in some form of collusion.

mrpotatoheadd · March 29, 2007 12:49AM

<< Wouldn't it make more sense for the representative to tell his two clients that he will only take the best bid to auction, and have one set max goining into the actual auction? >>

The problem with this is that the representative is then giving the client with the lower bid information about another client's bid by telling him that his bid is too low.

kranky · March 29, 2007 1:39AM

Here's the explanation from the dealer in the previous thread. Keep in mind that I had changed the dollar amounts in my earlier post, this is the straight story:

"Two very good clients, Harry Bass and Rudy Sieck, came to me independently and told me to buy the coin. Clearly, I cannot execute two buy bids on the same lot, so I went to them and asked them for the maximum price to bid. Rudy gave me $10500 and Harry gave me $11000. The consignor is entitled to both bids, so I simply raised the bid to Harry's bid. If Rudy had only given me $10500, then I would have raised it to $11000 on Harry's behalf. They both honestly gave me the bids independently and I do not think that I told them beforehand the amount of the other's bid. I also don't think that they knew even the identity of the other person."

I love this story because on the surface it seems like something's not right, yet once the details are known, it was handled exactly right.

MadMarty · March 29, 2007 1:43AM

<< Here's the explanation from the dealer in the previous thread. Keep in mind that I had changed the dollar amounts in my earlier post, this is the straight story:

"Two very good clients, Harry Bass and Rudy Sieck, came to me independently and told me to buy the coin. Clearly, I cannot execute two buy bids on the same lot, so I went to them and asked them for the maximum price to bid. Rudy gave me $10500 and Harry gave me $11000. The consignor is entitled to both bids, so I simply raised the bid to Harry's bid. If Rudy had only given me $10500, then I would have raised it to $11000 on Harry's behalf. They both honestly gave me the bids independently and I do not think that I told them beforehand the amount of the other's bid. I also don't think that they knew even the identity of the other person."

I love this story because on the surface it seems like something's not right, yet once the details are known, it was handled exactly right. >>

Than the dealer knew Rudy had no chance of winning the coin and should have told him so.

Julian · March 29, 2007 1:52AM

I was the dealer representing two very good clients, Rudy and Harry.

I wanted to keep their represntation business in the future. Both would give me discretionary bids.

I explained my predicament to both gentlemen, asked them for exact bids and that I would faithfully execute them both.

I continued to represent both after that.

If I had passed one of them off to a colleague, then I may have lost that portion of my business. Rudy was not upset, although he was disappointed. Rudy was a midwestern farmer and a tough negotiator. Harry was also a tough negotiator. I am certain that they both appreciated my honesty.

mrpotatoheadd · March 29, 2007 1:57AM

<< Than the dealer knew Rudy had no chance of winning the coin and should have told him so. >>

I don't think it would be proper to tell bidder "A" that another bidder (bidder "B") has a higher bid. Using that information, bidder "A" could keep raising his bid until he topped bidder "B", at which point, the representative would then tell bidder "B" that he no longer had the higher bid, and the whole process would repeat.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 29, 2007 1:58AM

<< I was the dealer representing two very good clients, Rudy and Harry.

I wanted to keep their represntation business in the future. Both would give me discretionary bids.

I explained my predicament to both gentlemen, asked them for exact bids and that I would faithfully execute them both. >>

Julian, in this scenario it sounds like both men determined on their own what to bid, and wanted to hire you merely to raise your hand. Is this typical? I would have expected that part of bidding representation is to provide guidance (or at least a sounding board) about how much the coin would likely bring, possible bidding competition, etc.

MrEureka · March 29, 2007 1:58AM

Than the dealer knew Rudy had no chance of winning the coin and should have told him so.

That wouldn't be fair to Harry. It would have given Rudy reason to consider bidding higher, perhaps behind Julian's back.

OffCenter · March 29, 2007 2:44AM

Laura

tmot99 · March 29, 2007 3:43AM

<< I explained my predicament to both gentlemen, asked them for exact bids and that I would faithfully execute them both. >>

And this is what it's about. Communication. Nothing is hidden. If the clients were not notified of the situation and things continued, then the story takes a very wrong turn. But, in that Julian was upfront about what was going on and had the clients give him their final price, then all is ok.

Yet another

for Julian.

guitarwes · March 29, 2007 4:31AM

I see absolutly nothing wrong and everything right that Julian did. The men who wanted the coins set their OWN maximum bid, and the consigner has priviledge to both bids and to take the higher bid of the two.

Just like if everybody sets a MAX BID on a teletrade auction and lets it ride to the end with no one changing their bids and each bid is at consecutive increments over the next, who wins? The person with the highest bid! Same thing as above.

wes

edited to add the consecutive increments part

PerryHall · March 29, 2007 4:35AM

Anyone ever see a fist fight at an auction?

fanofcoins · March 29, 2007 4:37AM

what julian did was absolutely correct. to do anything else would be considered collusion.

Scavenger · March 29, 2007 4:46AM

What I dont understand is why didnt he give the coin to the high bidder at the actual auction price. Same end result and the client saves thousands. As for the underbidder, doesnt matter, he would have lost either way.

I guess the answer to this question lies in who owned the coin that was being auctioned-

tmot99 · March 29, 2007 4:48AM

<< What I dont understand is why didnt he give the coin to the high bidder at the actual auction price. Same end result and the client saves thousands. As for the underbidder, doesnt matter, he would have lost either way. >>

But the underbidder would have been unhappy to know that his $15,500 was not executed. Remember that the underbidder doesn't know what the other bidder bid.

Writersblock · March 29, 2007 10:50PM

Correct, the underbidder being represented by the dealer would probably get quit upset seeing the coin sold for thousands of dollars less than the max bid he filed with the dealer but it going to someone else.

Cladiator · March 29, 2007 11:01PM

<< Taking bids from two clients on the same coin seems inappropriate to me. >>

Me too.

<< If I had passed one of them off to a colleague, then I may have lost that portion of my business. >>

God forbid. In a battle of ethics vs. profit the later is nearly always the victor, unfortunately.

Cladiator · March 29, 2007 11:12PM

<< While it may seem unethical to raise a bid for any reason, it is also unethical to collude to lower the bid. If you tell both that you are aware of each other, and there is a "high" bid, and the other should bow out-and then execute a lower winning bid-that is illegal. >>

Seems to me that this entire issue could be easily avoided by simply not representing multiple bidders on the same lot. Of course, that would minimize the amount of money a dealer would make and we all know that is sacrilege.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 29, 2007 11:19PM

<< Seems to me that this entire issue could be easily avoided by simply not representing multiple bidders on the same lot. >>

I certainly agree.

ricko · March 29, 2007 11:41PM

Isn't that similar to an attorney representing both sides of a case? Having two clients for the same product is a conflict of interest... period. Cheers, RickO

Barndog · March 29, 2007 11:47PM

my agent and I discuss strike, grade, toning, eye appeal, and other physical characteristics of coins he views for me. I know (because he and I have discussed it already) that on popular items, he may have bids from one or more other people. I do not ask for his advice on amount to bid -- I decide on that myself based upon his description of the coin and my knowledge of the market. I have no problem with this arrangement.

DeusExMachina · March 29, 2007 11:47PM

<< 

<< Taking bids from two clients on the same coin seems inappropriate to me. >>

Me too.

<< 

I don't understand the logic here. Only one coin is up for auction and 2 people want that same coin. Obviously only one can win it. Each party must independently determine their final price. The highest bid wins.

Whether this process is handled through 1 dealer or 2 should not impact the outcome.

seanq · March 30, 2007 12:00AM

Not to unhijack the thread or anything, but there was a regular local auction in the late 1990s which featured many raw problem coins. This auctioneer was known for his terse descriptions and for wildly inflating the grades in his catalogs (he later stopped the live auctions and shifted his focus to using the same tactics on ebay).

One night a youngish man with an entourage walked in just after the previews ended. He then proceeded, with the encouragement of his companions (I assumed at the time they were his father, brother, and wife) to run up the bids on absolutely everything. I think he wound up winning close to half of all the lots offered on the night. I'm sure he thought he had stumbled into the biggest bargain basement auction ever. When the auction ended, several of the dealers in attendance went over to introduce themselves to him, as the rest of us walked out shaking our heads.

Sean Reynolds

kranky · March 30, 2007 2:06AM

Good story, seanq. I wonder when reality set in for that poor guy.

MadMonk · March 30, 2007 2:10AM

MadMarty with his weeniie coin necklace.

PerryHall · March 30, 2007 3:24AM

<< Good story, seanq. I wonder when reality set in for that poor guy. >>

Probably when he tries to cash in on his investment.

Shamika · March 30, 2007 4:03AM

Not to beat a dead horse, but back to Julian's double bid...

Don't forget, if the coin sold for less than the underbid, the consignor would have been screwed out of money that would otherwise be rightly his.

Coinosaurus · March 30, 2007 4:23AM

This happened a long time ago (not at a major auction house).

Dealer X, who conducted the auction, was representing buyer W (that's "W" for "whale") on a number of lots.

A certain lot came up, and the dealer said, "I'm not taking any bids because no one will outbid W on this".

He then proceeded to close the lot to Mr. W at a price LOWER than I would have paid. I protested and he went on to the next lot anyway.

originalisbest · March 30, 2007 4:54AM

Julian did absolutely nothing wrong in his scenario; both bids were taken and fairly executed. Those who can't see this are probably not able to understand much of anything so basic.

DeusExMachina · March 30, 2007 5:02AM

<< This happened a long time ago (not at a major auction house).

Dealer X, who conducted the auction, was representing buyer W (that's "W" for "whale") on a number of lots.

A certain lot came up, and the dealer said, "I'm not taking any bids because no one will outbid W on this".

He then proceeded to close the lot to Mr. W at a price LOWER than I would have paid. I protested and he went on to the next lot anyway. >>

That is not right. Buyer W may have been wiling to pay whatever for that coin but all bids must be submitted before his (buyer W's) final purchase price is determined.

The seller and Coinosaurus got hosed in this example.

Lakesammman · March 30, 2007 5:04AM

Only thing I might have done differently is cut the last bid - $31,250.

DeusExMachina · March 30, 2007 5:05AM

<< Julian did absolutely nothing wrong in his scenario; both bids were taken and fairly executed. Those who can't see this are probably not able to understand much of anything so basic.

>>

I agree. I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. You can't assume everyone bidding on an auction wins. 1 person wins, everyone else loses. By representing 2 bidders, you are guaranteed to represent one loser (at a minimum). All you can do is to inform your clients that you are representing more than 1 bidder. Simple....

Cladiator · March 30, 2007 5:07AM

<< I'd like to see someone tell one of two good customers-no over an auction commision. >>

So would I. That would eliminate any possibility of an issue arising.

DeusExMachina · March 30, 2007 5:11AM

<< 

<< I'd like to see someone tell one of two good customers-no over an auction commision. >>

So would I. That would eliminate any possibility of an issue arising. >>

What issue are attempting to prevent by turning away another bidder?

Cladiator · March 30, 2007 5:12AM

<< 

<< 

<< I'd like to see someone tell one of two good customers-no over an auction commision. >>

So would I. That would eliminate any possibility of an issue arising. >>

What issue are attempting to prevent by turning away another bidder? >>

Conflict of interest.

DeusExMachina · March 30, 2007 5:17AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< I'd like to see someone tell one of two good customers-no over an auction commision. >>

So would I. That would eliminate any possibility of an issue arising. >>

What issue are attempting to prevent by turning away another bidder? >>

Conflict of interest. >>

Bidder's A interest is to win the auction. Bidder B's interest is to win the auction. Given that 2 bidders have emerged, competition will be guaranteed.
Dealer 1's interest is to represent his/her clients best bid(s) at an auction.

If A & B work with dealer 1, how is that different than A working with dealer 1 and B working with dealer 2? The best bid will win either way.

I think you are confusing competiiton with a conflict of interest.

Cladiator · March 30, 2007 5:25AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< I'd like to see someone tell one of two good customers-no over an auction commision. >>

So would I. That would eliminate any possibility of an issue arising. >>

What issue are attempting to prevent by turning away another bidder? >>

Conflict of interest. >>

Bidder's A interest is to win the auction. Bidder B's interest is to win the auction. Given that 2 bidders have emerged, competition will be guaranteed.
Dealer 1's interest is to represent his/her clients best bid(s) at an auction.

If A & B work with dealer 1, how is that different than A working with dealer 1 and B working with dealer 2? The best bid will win either way.

I think you are confusing competiiton with a conflict of interest. >>

When one individual is in control of the confidential actions of two or more direct competitors there is a conflict of interest on the part of that one individual, in my opinion. There is no way, other than trust, to determine if that one individual is conducting operations in an ethical manner.

I'm simply saying that, in my opinion, since such a situation offers no concrete transparency there will always be the possibility of unethical practices. That simple possibility could be easily eliminated by only representing one client per lot.

Strange, unusual or just plain weird things you have seen at a live coin auction

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