Unopened wax debacle on ebay..... UPDATE
CDsNuts
Posts: 10,092 ✭
I orchestrated a deal for some 70s unopened packs from a guy who was selling them off a few at a time on ebay. I made him an offer for the lot with the condition that I could return if resealed, and he agreed. I told him to set up a BIN and I'd pay via paypal, so there was minimal risk involved. He said he bought the packs from a local store that was closing, and he bought them to flip them for a profit. The guy seems honest, and has mostly sold books and other stuff- these were the only cards he's sold. So I get the packs, and immediately send him this email:
"Hi Michael-
I received the packs today- thanks for the quick shipping. Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain that the packs have been resealed at some point before you bought them. There are some telltale signs of tampering such as:
- A few of the packs have small "burn" marks, meaning the iron used to reseal them was too hot and burnt some of the wax.
- The hot roller marks on the back of the some packs (especially the 74s) are not consistent across the back of the packs. Topps used a hot roller to melt the wax and seal the pack, and the faint roller line on the back should be consistent across both flaps on the back. On some of these, it doesn't match up.
- I opened one 77-78 basketball pack- The card on the bottom should have a heavy wax stain on the front which it did not. The top card should have gum residue on the bottom, which it did not. And the cards in the middle should be fairly consistent in terms of centering and corner wear, which they are not. I've been steadily buying, opening, and selling unopened packs from this particular year and I have a good feel of how the cards should be coming out of the pack. These were way off.
I know there's no way you could have known all this, but anybody who deals in a lot of unopened vintage product would agree with me that these are most likely reseals. For this reason, I would like to ask for a refund for the price of the packs. I have no problem paying for the pack I opened and shipping, and will send every pack back to you in the condition they were received. Please get back to me as soon as possible. Thanks.
Lee"
Now, I've given him several specific reasons why I'm almost 100% certain the packs have been resealed from a guy who buys, sells, and rips this stuff all the time, so he sends me this:
" Lee,
I will be glad to refund your money as you stated. I believe the packs were not opened and resealed, if I was suspicious I would not have bought them nor sold them. The card shop owner had a GREAT reputation. You have been a GEM of a person to work with so whatever you think is fair is fine. If you mail them back today I can relist them asap. Does this mean you are not keeping either of the auctions you won? I'm really sorry you weren't happy with the packs, again I am as sure they are unopened.
Let me know I have to go to work and will return tonight.
Thanks
Michael"
I'm not sure his expertise in selling books qualifies him to authenticate unopened vintage sportscards, but whatever. At this point, I'm positive he's going to resell the packs. Not really my problem, but I feel bad another person will buy this stuff. I recommended he send a few to get graded just to be sure, but I'm fairly certain he's going to put them back up on ebay. I think I'm in the clear, but then I get this email today:
"I got the packs today. None of the pieces of gum were cracked when I sent them to you, now I noticed at least two that are cracked. I also noticed the gum went through the wrapper on one pack. That's why I wrap packs in twos and in bubble. I haven't inspected closely because I have to go to work. I'll let you know when I get home.
Thanks"
The gum? Really? He just received evidence that the packs are pretty much worthless, refuses to listen to said evidence, and he's worried about the gum being cracked? This guy really shouldn't be buying and selling unopened packs.
Lee
"Hi Michael-
I received the packs today- thanks for the quick shipping. Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain that the packs have been resealed at some point before you bought them. There are some telltale signs of tampering such as:
- A few of the packs have small "burn" marks, meaning the iron used to reseal them was too hot and burnt some of the wax.
- The hot roller marks on the back of the some packs (especially the 74s) are not consistent across the back of the packs. Topps used a hot roller to melt the wax and seal the pack, and the faint roller line on the back should be consistent across both flaps on the back. On some of these, it doesn't match up.
- I opened one 77-78 basketball pack- The card on the bottom should have a heavy wax stain on the front which it did not. The top card should have gum residue on the bottom, which it did not. And the cards in the middle should be fairly consistent in terms of centering and corner wear, which they are not. I've been steadily buying, opening, and selling unopened packs from this particular year and I have a good feel of how the cards should be coming out of the pack. These were way off.
I know there's no way you could have known all this, but anybody who deals in a lot of unopened vintage product would agree with me that these are most likely reseals. For this reason, I would like to ask for a refund for the price of the packs. I have no problem paying for the pack I opened and shipping, and will send every pack back to you in the condition they were received. Please get back to me as soon as possible. Thanks.
Lee"
Now, I've given him several specific reasons why I'm almost 100% certain the packs have been resealed from a guy who buys, sells, and rips this stuff all the time, so he sends me this:
" Lee,
I will be glad to refund your money as you stated. I believe the packs were not opened and resealed, if I was suspicious I would not have bought them nor sold them. The card shop owner had a GREAT reputation. You have been a GEM of a person to work with so whatever you think is fair is fine. If you mail them back today I can relist them asap. Does this mean you are not keeping either of the auctions you won? I'm really sorry you weren't happy with the packs, again I am as sure they are unopened.
Let me know I have to go to work and will return tonight.
Thanks
Michael"
I'm not sure his expertise in selling books qualifies him to authenticate unopened vintage sportscards, but whatever. At this point, I'm positive he's going to resell the packs. Not really my problem, but I feel bad another person will buy this stuff. I recommended he send a few to get graded just to be sure, but I'm fairly certain he's going to put them back up on ebay. I think I'm in the clear, but then I get this email today:
"I got the packs today. None of the pieces of gum were cracked when I sent them to you, now I noticed at least two that are cracked. I also noticed the gum went through the wrapper on one pack. That's why I wrap packs in twos and in bubble. I haven't inspected closely because I have to go to work. I'll let you know when I get home.
Thanks"
The gum? Really? He just received evidence that the packs are pretty much worthless, refuses to listen to said evidence, and he's worried about the gum being cracked? This guy really shouldn't be buying and selling unopened packs.
Lee
0
Comments
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
As for buying wax from this guy, why would you? Nowadays--on packs anyway-- you MUST know your seller. If you do not, then you assume the risk. I will be surprised if he refunds your money based upon his last comment to you. I hope I am wrong .
The majority of stuff out there 25 years and older has been tampered with
I do not agree with that blanket statement. There are plenty good packs out there, but they are in private collections. There are certainly bad packs out there, but to say that it is a majority is not acurate--IMO. They may be several re-sealers out there sending out many bad packs, but not as a whole are they NG. Just loook at all the boxes that are sold thru the auction houses. There is a ton of good legit stuff out there to buy. Know your seller to trust your seller.
michael doesn't understand things like us my friend.
things like how hard it is to drive to work when you have a bag around your friggin head.
julen
RIP GURU
<< <i>How did he know the gum wasnt cracked when he sent them if they were un-opened packs ? >>
Let me guess! They weren't cracked when he resealed the packs?
OT - Star Wars is comming out on USPS stamps!
Russell
Treasures of a Lifetime: Something of value from a period of time representing someone's life!
Edited: My URL removed! I don't spam!
I'm also fairly good at sniffing out the con artists versus normal people selling their crap. I can pretty much guarantee this guy is on the up-and-up, he just happened to buy the wrong thing to sell on ebay. I've made some nice scores buying vintage unopened material, including packs and boxes from the 60s and 70s, among them early-mid 70s basketball packs for $25 each, 1960 Topps BB pack for $60, 1980/81 basketball box plus a raw PSA 8 Bird/Dr.J for under $1000, 91 Desert shield packs, etc... If you pay via paypal and have recourse, the risk is fairly minimal. I may end up losing $30 or so on this deal for shipping and the packs he won't refund me for, but I stood to make at least $200-$250 if the stuff was legit which made my purchase a no-brainer in my estimation. I go into these situations knowing there's a decent chance that the stuff isn't legit, which is why I buy via paypal and factor that risk into my price.
I guess what I'm saying is you have to know what to look for (auction wording, sales/purchase history, responses to questions, scans, etc...), but every now and then you come across legit material. Unopened material from the 70s is not as rare as you might think.
I guess I probably shouldn't have even started this thread, because it was inevitably going to turn into a "don't buy wax on ebay" symposium.
Lee
The Cause: Buying "unopened" material on EBAY.
The Solution: NEVER buy "unopened" material on EBAY.
BBCE sells nice unopened material.
Any plans for a chargeback on the packs you did return that the seller may not refund you for, due to the ~30 year old broken gum?
Just curious.
~IMS
Anyone is an expert when you have a "safety net" to fall back on, or to be able to "chargeback" as a recourse.
This goes along with buying cards advertised as NM/M and receiving Ex cards.
This is why the hobby is really starting to get ugly.
Everone wants to be able to purchase anything and be refunded automatically when it isnt what we want.
If we can make money on the deal, we'll accept it. If we cant or isnt up to expectations, we want our money back.
Just my vent for the day
<< <i>Here is a quote no one will like.
Anyone is an expert when you have a "safety net" to fall back on, or to be able to "chargeback" as a recourse.
This goes along with buying cards advertised as NM/M and receiving Ex cards.
This is why the hobby is really starting to get ugly.
Everone wants to be able to purchase anything and be refunded automatically when it isnt what we want.
If we can make money on the deal, we'll accept it. If we cant or isnt up to expectations, we want our money back.
Just my vent for the day >>
At which point the market dries up, because sellers are sick of being freerolled by buyers, the prices go back up, and the equilibrium is re-established. The market is not a cure-all, but it sure a hell does a great job of correcting for situations like the one you've described above.
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope it all works out for you.
the prices go back up, and the equilibrium is re-established."
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Absolutely !!!
Buyers use PayPal/Credit-Cards as a means to guarantee
that they hit homers on every purchase.
BUT, any seller who agrees to "guarantee" that the wax-material he
bought from a third-party is "unopened," probably deserves the fate
that is about to befall the instant seller.
The Cause: Buying "unopened" material on EBAY.
The Solution: NEVER buy "unopened" material on EBAY.
BBCE sells nice unopened material."
Storm- That's a fairly narrow view. If you bought a DVD on ebay that was scratched and the seller wouldn't resolve the issue, would you say "never buy DVDs on ebay"? Yes BBCE sells a ton of good product, but there's not exactly a lot of room to make profit off his material. If 25% of the unopened material I buy from ebay is bogus, and I pay about 60% of market value for everything, then the venture is profitable even with the headaches of the 25% factored in. I didn't buy this stuff to rip- I bought it to resell. Over the years, people have bought tons of vintage material from me through ebay, and my stuff was legit and I'm not a well-known player in the market.
InMySock- I haven't decided yet. He's been an alright guy up until this point, so I may just eat the extra $15. Not the end of the world. If it was more money, I'd probably chargeback regardless. I think I'll play it by ear from here on out and if he becomes difficult, I might go the chargeback route. As it stands, he's going to refund me 85% of the money which is a fairly minimal loss.
basbeallfanatic- I'm not sure what your complaint is. If something isn't as described in an auction, aren't you entitled to a refund? Just because the majority of sellers overgrade their stuff by 2 grades doesn't make it alright. The market needs to correct itself so there specific motivation to describe your merchandise accurately, and paypal is playing a part in that with their chargeback system. There's a reason why sellers of resealed material generally don't accept paypal. I agree that some people do take advantage of paypal's policy, but by and large, they are in the minority. Also, this safety net will end up benefitting the seller because people will bid more confidently knowing they have recourse, and prices will be closer to real market value.
Lee
Lee
<< <i>"A PayPal dispute is on the horizon.
The Cause: Buying "unopened" material on EBAY.
The Solution: NEVER buy "unopened" material on EBAY.
BBCE sells nice unopened material."
Storm- That's a fairly narrow view. If you bought a DVD on ebay that was scratched and the seller wouldn't resolve the issue, would you say "never buy DVDs on ebay"? Yes BBCE sells a ton of good product, but there's not exactly a lot of room to make profit off his material. If 25% of the unopened material I buy from ebay is bogus, and I pay about 60% of market value for everything, then the venture is profitable even with the headaches of the 25% factored in.
Lee >>
This is the part that a lot of people on this board, for whatever reason, have a hard time understanding. If you consider the value of your max bid as a number which has been derived as a function of a) the value of the item if it is, in fact, in the condition stated in the auction description, and b) your confidence that the item is, in fact, in said condition, and c) whether or not you can recoup your losses if it turns out the item is not 'as stated', then there IS no issue with 'getting ripped off' .
Take a high dollar card that's raw, and being sold by newbie. Say, a 1960 Yaz. There's a scan of the card, it looks like it's in great shape, the borders are of the appropriate dimension, etc. etc. etc. From all appearances the card 'looks' like it could be genuine and unaltered. What's the most you're willing to pay for the card (assuming free shipping)? $50? $25? $10? $1? The point is that there IS a price you'd be willing to pay-- however small that price may be-- and that the difference between the price you're willing to pay on Ebay and the price you'd be willing to pay if you had the card in hand, and could personally inspect it, reflects your confidence (or lack thereof) in the card being legit. If, however, the card turns out to be counterfeit, or trimmed/altered, etc., then you have no right to complain, SINCE YOU FACTORED THAT POSSIBILITY INTO YOUR BID PRICE.
Take this situation. The price Lee was willing to pay here was higher than it would have been if the seller has stated 'no refunds', or 'no paypal', since the absence of these stipulations made this auction more attractive and capped the potential loss at an amount <%100 of the hammer price. Without these 'guarantees' he bids lower. If he was 100% sure the packs were legit he bids higher. The larger point behind all of this is that since you can't be 'sure' of the quality of the thing you're bidding on, you CAN adjust your bid price to accomodate the risk, which from an expected value standpoint makes this situation equivalent to one in which you purchase the item at a higher price but have more confidence in the legitimacy of the product.
The moral of this story is that it's silly to say 'never buy unopened on Ebay'. You can say 'never buy unopened on Ebay with a confidence that the product will be legit', but that's a different piece of advise entirely. The important thing is not to 'never do this or that', but to account for the risk in the price you're willing to pay.
But so would 50 other people...
"NEVER buy unopened material on EBAY, and 'expect' it
to be unopened."
Factoring risk is fine. If you can get some seller to let you
factor AND still guarantee your purchase, more power to you.
NOTE: I do not sell raw cards, or unknown-origin/unauthenticated
packs. I might buy them, if I could steal them AND get a guarantee.
<< <i>Take a high dollar card that's raw, and being sold by newbie. Say, a 1960 Yaz. There's a scan of the card, it looks like it's in great shape, the borders are of the appropriate dimension, etc. etc. etc. From all appearances the card 'looks' like it could be genuine and unaltered. What's the most you're willing to pay for the card (assuming free shipping)? $50? $25? $10? $1? The point is that there IS a price you'd be willing to pay-- however small that price may be-- and that the difference between the price you're willing to pay on Ebay and the price you'd be willing to pay if you had the card in hand, and could personally inspect it, reflects your confidence (or lack thereof) in the card being legit. If, however, the card turns out to be counterfeit, or trimmed/altered, etc., then you have no right to complain, SINCE YOU FACTORED THAT POSSIBILITY INTO YOUR BID PRICE >>
I agree 100%. Although this seller did agree to refund his money if it wasn't legit less the price of the opened pack. Which seems fair to me.
In my experience, just recently in fact, I was buying a bunch of singles for various registries and to backfill some sets I had taken cards from for various reasons. I purchased all of these cards sight-unseen but the price was very cheap on almost all of them. I only needed one or two of a card but I purchased 5-20 of every card if they were available, fully expecting that most would not be up to standards, especially considering the price. I wasn't let down. I got some stuff, that had I seen it in person, I never would have even paid the $.18 cents for some of these dogs. Sure, the site and most of the sellers will give a full refund for the cards I am not happy with but I purchased these cards, for a very cheap price in many cases, with the expectation I would have some dogs. I may have been a little more anal about it had the cards been $5+ and I purchased 5-20 of each and they were described as NM but arrived with crases, missing paper, completely rounded corners etc. But in this case, I knew the risk I was taking and I was comfortable with it.
Hope this one works out for you Lee.
-Josh
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>My "never" advice is better stated:
"NEVER buy unopened material on EBAY, and 'expect' it
to be unopened."
Factoring risk is fine. If you can get some seller to let you
factor AND still guarantee your purchase, more power to you.
NOTE: I do not sell raw cards, or unknown-origin/unauthenticated
packs. I might buy them, if I could steal them AND get a guarantee. >>
Agreed. This, storm, is sage counsel indeed.
There are many good packs out there, but I'd be very reluctant to buy from someone who has no background in cards but who tells me he bought them from a guy closing out his store. Maybe I'm just being overly cynical, but I've heard that story almost as many times as I've heard about the card collection being found in the attic.
I do hope you get the refund he owes you, CDs, but I suspect that you are going to have issues with him, and who's to say he ever really intended to issue you a refund. Good luck!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
About the shop closing story, good observation. I'll have to add that to my list of lies people tell.
Lee
<< <i>I'm having issues with him.
About the shop closing story, good observation. I'll have to add that to my list of lies people tell.
Lee >>
Here's the part I can't figure (and I'm speaking from experience, as I've traveled this road before too); Assuming the hammer price was more or less in line with what the packs should have gone for, why not just refund you the dough and relist? He has to know he's not going to win this, and all it does is further the risk that he'll get a big fat neg with BEWARE: RESEALER written in the text box. Who needs that? Just quietly refund the payment, put the offending bidder (in this case Lee) on the blocked bidders list, relist the item and burn someone slightly less informed. How hard is that?
Do you have to be a certified dumb-ass to be a resealer? I mean, is there some aptitude test you have to flunk before they let you into the brotherhood? Just look at 80's; he sure as hell wasn't splitting any atoms at the research institute, this guy Lee's tangled up with is obviously no Mensa, and all the resealers I've found myself bumped up against seem to suffer from cognitive deficiencies as well. It seems like you'd actually have to have something between your ears to successfully pull this scam repeatedly, but I guess not.
<< <i>I recall reading an article written by Steve Hart not long ago in which he estimated that at least half of the unopened product up for sale on ebay is either resealed, tampered with, or otherwise not authentic. >>
If Steve Hart said that, then that would be way too much of a generalization. I would believe that the amount of resealed packs that were offered as genuine on ebay, would basically be in correlation to the value.
For example on "cheap" unopened packs the percentage offered on ebay which are genuine is likely close to 100%. Packs from the 50's to mid-60's offered as unopened packs on ebay, I'd say the chances of those being genuine is probably close to 0%.
Steve
For example on "cheap" unopened packs the percentage offered on ebay which are genuine is likely close to 100%. Packs from the 50's to mid-60's offered as unopened packs on ebay, I'd say the chances of those being genuine is probably close to 0%.
No offense Steve, but when it comes to experience with unopened product, I think I'd side with Steve Hart's opinion over your own, which is based more on conjecture than on experience. After all, Steve has handled literally thousands of vintage packs from all eras and sports, so I think his assertion is more accurate.
As for your point that "cheap" packs are likely to be close to 100% genuine, well, that's absolutely FALSE. There are many notorious resealers who SPECIALIZE in low end packs. Why? Because they can more easily get away with resealing lower-priced packs and the lots of commons, semi-stars, wrappers, etc. are very easily obtained. But when you add up hundreds of resealed packs lower-end packs, well, you wind up with quite a lucrative racket in the end. I've seen 1981 Topps packs that have been searched and resealed, for crying out loud, LOL.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Lee
<< <i>If Steve Hart said that, then that would be way too much of a generalization. I would believe that the amount of resealed packs that were offered as genuine on ebay, would basically be in correlation to the value.
For example on "cheap" unopened packs the percentage offered on ebay which are genuine is likely close to 100%. Packs from the 50's to mid-60's offered as unopened packs on ebay, I'd say the chances of those being genuine is probably close to 0%.
No offense Steve, but when it comes to experience with unopened product, I think I'd side with Steve Hart's opinion over your own, which is based more on conjecture than on experience. After all, Steve has handled literally thousands of vintage packs from all eras and sports, so I think his assertion is more accurate.
As for your point that "cheap" packs are likely to be close to 100% genuine, well, that's absolutely FALSE. There are many notorious resealers who SPECIALIZE in low end packs. Why? Because they can more easily get away with resealing lower-priced packs and the lots of commons, semi-stars, wrappers, etc. are very easily obtained. But when you add up hundreds of resealed packs lower-end packs, well, you wind up with quite a lucrative racket in the end. I've seen 1981 Topps packs that have been searched and resealed, for crying out loud, LOL. >>
I understand your point on the 81 topps, but in PSA 10 there could be some decent value cards there. But that is an interesting point you make about "quantity" which I hadn't considered - I'll take your word for it.
Steve
"Molon Labe"
I can't allow myself to lose money because I correctly packed the packs tight, thereby cracking the dry brittle gum inside. He seems to think his way of packing them (loose and in bubble wrap) was better than mine. Try shipping loose cards loose in bubble wrap and see how the corners end up. You think that paper thin layer of wax is gonna keep those corners sharp if their bouncing around in there? I'd rather risk breaking gum than ruining corners on the actual cards. Also, no reputable dealer of any unopened material would care whether the gum inside the packs is unbroken, unless they're going for GAI 10 packs (gum must be intact).
I've conceded as much as I will in this transaction and he keeps whining. Now I want everything back, including my manhood.
Lee
Lee
sorry this happened to you.
question, how does this guy know that the gum did not break enroute to you? This all could have been avoided had you simply told him that is the way you got them?
Is it too late to say that?
Steve
"My point is the packs are worthless because they are reseals, therefore any damage to said packs is insignificant because they should never be resold. If you listed them on ebay as "resealed packs" you wouldn't get any bids, therefore they are worthless in my eyes.
If I sold somebody a card, they emailed me back saying it's counterfeit and gave good evidence to support that claim, I wouldn't care if the card came back with a crease in it because I would have no intention of reselling it. I feel your intention is to dump these reseals back on the market without ever exploring whether they are resealed or not, which is dishonest and irresponsible in my view.
The value you're putting on the damage is a figure based on the assumption that the packs are legitimate, which they are not. As I mentioned in my last email, the quote you used below from GAI's website about the gum being broken is ONLY FOR CONSIDERATION WHEN GIVEN A PRISTINE 10 GRADE, which these packs clearly would not even be close, so the gum really isn't an issue at all. I have people email me wierd questions about my stuff all the time- just because someone emailed you about whether the gum was whole or not doesn't mean it has any reflection on the value of the pack. Like I said before, the auctions where you don't mention the gum at all have a higher final price than those where you mention the gum being whole.
Your argument about getting good cards in the pack I opened- those cards are NM at best and can be bought as a lot on ebay for less than $2. The Walton is the only card that would not be considered a common, and won't even get bids in less than NM-MT condition- http://cgi.ebay.com/1977-78-Topps-basketball-120-Bill-Walton-NM-Mt_W0QQitemZ280097627838QQcategoryZ4236QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem . Here is a link on the PSA forums showing the results from some packs I opened recently that I bought from a reputable dealer: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=574811&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1977 . The cards I pulled from your pack were NM at best, and cards in the middle of the pack had corner wear when other cards in the pack did not. As I said before, cards in legitimate packs will almost always have similar centering and similar wear. Also, the card on the bottom of the pack will have a wax stain on it 100% of the time, which yours did not.
At this point, I'd rather let Paypal handle this dispute. I do agree that we've both spent way too much time dealing with this situation, and I'm really not willing to take a $100 loss on resealed packs that are worthless. This is exactly why I was so insistent on bidding on them through ebay and buying them through paypal to begin with- so I would have protection in case a situation exactly like this came up.
Lee"
I guess I should've asked this before, but if he doesn't agree to a refund, how does the paypal investigation work? I've had pretty good luck with sellers so far and haven't needed Paypal to step in.
Lee
Lee
Great! Did you ever out this guy? Not sure and I do not want to read the entire threaqd again.
Steve
Lee
I'm really opposed to using paypal, but I'm starting to reconsider it. At least when buying cards...
Thanks Lee!
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
That makes sense. I tend to agree with you. This Lee guy doesn't know a thing. I know you have only been here a few weeks but your word is good as gold!
Oh ya, just kidding. Lee knows more about unopened (or opened as the case may be) packs than most people and I thus tend to believe his word on the subject.
About the shop closing story, good observation. I'll have to add that to my list of lies people tell.
Lee"
Lee, you had issues with me because you did not return the wax in the condition it was given to you or even close to it. The guys store did close he was an older gentleman and Ebay was taking over the sports card market, believe it or not things like that do happen, it's not a story it's true. I wish people on the board knew the whole truth not just your interpretation of it. I will tell you I do not buy and sell vintage wax anymore. I really thought you were a good guy until you literally ruined a few of those packs you sent back to me and felt it was absolutely of no significance whatsoever. Believe it or not people do have unopened vintage wax and it is not resealed, and I happened to be one of those people. You kept insisting to have them graded send them to Steve Hart, why? I knew they were legit and so did everyone else who purchased them. I bought them to sell and ABSOLUTELY 100% would not have sold them if I thought they were resealed. You received every dollar you paid, you did NOT give me the 15% for the damage you caused as you promised you would, I guess the board did not know that.
Board members I can see why you doubt me, one of the oldtimers on this board who you like doubted wax I was selling. There is another perspective and I'll be glad to answer any questions about it. I thought this whole ordeal was over until I listed some 1989 Score football rookies to sell and was jumped all over. I do not sell any more vintage wax if I ever do, you can guarantee it will be legitmate.
What he wanted was packs that were not re seals.
edited to add: as usual there is 2 sides to every story.
Steve
If they were resealed I would have destroyed them as well to prevent you from trying to fraud others.
Not saying people have to buy from him, but put yourself in his shoes.
Steve
Bosox1976
Winning Pitcher: Thanks again!
Bosox: I do not walk or look like a duck. Quack! (kidding)
Edit: Personally I will wait until Lee addresses this situation and see how it plays out. Im not making any judgment either way at this point...
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The argument breaks down there.
There is virtually no such thing as "buyer's remorse" among the folks on this board.
People here buy stuff to hold/resell. When they get real stuff, there is no reason for remorse.
(I have been around here ALOT longer than my ID indicates. I recall no "buyer's remorse.")
All that said, it is unwise to be a buyer/seller of unauthenticated "unopened product" on EBAY.
Common sense tells us that the good stuff is ALL in slabs before it hits EBAY at "bargain" prices.
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Today's Example: Folks who see 1980/81 basketball packs on EBAY for half of what BBCE sells
them for, need to ask themselves if the guy on EBAY is being generous. I know the answer.
Not judging here......just saying.