John Ford has passed away

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · July 17, 2005 12:58AM

There is an obituary in the New York Times for the great John J Ford who passed away July 7th inside an Arizona nursing home.
It can be read by going to nytimes.com/obituaries

Stewart

TorinoCobra71 · July 17, 2005 1:23AM

What did he collect??

TorinoCobra71

Newmismatist · July 17, 2005 1:27AM

<< What did he collect??

TorinoCobra71 >>

Everything!

TorinoCobra71 · July 17, 2005 1:29AM

What I meant was, what was his favorite/specialty??

TorinoCobra71

Coin Finder · July 17, 2005 2:42AM

John J. Ford collected Coins, Medals, Currency, Script, books, tokens basically anything connected with numismatics. His lifetime accumulation was auctioned off over the years most recent in three or four different auctions. His holdings broke many previous auction records for items some of which are unique.

He was the collectors collector we may not see the likes of one like this again.

Tbig

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · July 17, 2005 2:43AM

Colonial coins....He was the Godfather

Stewart

TorinoCobra71 · July 17, 2005 2:58AM

Thanks Tbig, that is what I was looking for!

TorinoCobra71

EagleEye · July 17, 2005 3:02AM

It would have been really interesting if Ford had acquired the entire Boyd Collection and it was saved intact until today! It would have been a $200 Million collection. It would've kept Stack's busy for a decade!

Gemini · July 17, 2005 3:24AM

A mega legend and a great loss to the numismatic community. I enjoyed his many coin stories that were often related by Dave Bowers in his publications. Many funny stories especially when Walter Breen worked for him. His library contained many rare books and catalogs. He was an expert and well read in every area of numismatics. He is the owner of the famous rare colonial quints that are in the begining of the red book. He also collected western and territorial gold and currency. His former home here on Long Island featured a walk in safe which I thought was most cool. A man who was really a walking history book. Rest in peace John

Newmismatist · July 17, 2005 3:35AM

<< John J. Ford collected Coins, Medals, Currency, Script, books, tokens basically anything connected with numismatics. His lifetime accumulation was auctioned off over the years most recent in three or four different auctions. His holdings broke many previous auction records for items some of which are unique.

He was the collectors collector we may not see the likes of one like this again.

Tbig >>

And if he couldn't find it, he made it!

I believe he was connected with the fake gold bars that were sold to Josiah Lilly and then ended up in the Smithsonian
See the article: "HOW THE WEST WAS FAKED" by John Kleeberg and T.V. Buttrey

Linky

Longacre · July 17, 2005 4:12AM

The obit in the NY Times was two columns and was really well written. They interviewed Michael Hodder and Harvey Stack. It is always nice to see a numismatist recognized in the NY Times with a well written piece. Of course I did not know him, but he seemed like an interesting fellow.

Shamika · July 17, 2005 4:20AM

I believe he also had one hell of a numismatic literature collection.

Coinosaurus · July 17, 2005 4:36AM

I read through the Ford/Buttrey debate. What a mess. Can't we all just get along

Mark · July 17, 2005 4:56AM

Newmismatist:

Thanks for the new link to the "How the West Was Faked" page. I had the old link but it was outdated.

Here are a couple of choice lines from an obituary of John Ford from that page:

"John Jay Ford, Jr.’s position in the history of US numismatics is that of the greatest forger ever, a corrupter of numismatic fact: a man who ... made and marketed fake prooflike USAOG $20s of 1853, fake Western bars and coins, fake Mexican gold bars, and fake Saudi Arabian 4 dinar gold discs. ... These fakes provided Ford with the money to collect real coins, the collection that is being auctioned now, realizing around $30 million. In financial terms, Ford is the most successful numismatic forger in history; he may be the most successful forger of any type of art anywhere. ... Yet [Ford's] career resulted in him being remembered not for the work he did, but for his notorious habit of hoarding information and never publishing it; and for the forgeries he created, which made him a numismatic leper someone who made you shudder, if he got too close."

Gad, I surely hope no one writes anything like that about me after I am gone!

Here is one last comment from the obituary:

"By the middle of the 1950s these three numismatic luminaries Ford, Sheldon, and Breen were among the most admired scholars in the US field. ... Yet each was a criminal. Breen was a child molester. Sheldon was a thief. Ford was a forger."

Mark

Newmismatist · July 17, 2005 6:53AM

I do not know whether the authors of the link in my previos post have an ax to grind or not. I've heard for years that a number of the gold bars in major collections and the Smithsonian were fakes - I had no idea who was involved until several years ago when I read some of the history while doing research on Sheldon - (who in fact did switch numerous coins that were in the ANS collection) One thing's for sure - when something rare surfaces and you can't trace it's provenance there's usually a problem - either stolen or a fake.

John J. Ford was quite interesting - he had a great collection and perhaps there's a bit of interesting "history" in his past numismatic career. He certainly uncovered a lot of "rare" and previously unknown bullion bars - maybe he just had a good source.

BillJones · July 17, 2005 7:10AM

The line that I heard most from collectors who were of Ford's generation was, "You have to watch him." Ford in numismatic circles had the reputation as a sharp guy who would beat you if he could.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · July 17, 2005 7:20AM

One of his coin collecting collegues nicknamed him "Johnny Fraud "

I met him at the recent Atlanta ANA.He was a funny guy with so many stories.We shared a cab to the airport.He told me not to tip the taxi driver.He said it wasn't good to spoil him.As we say in New York,He was some piece of work !!

Stewart

MrEureka · July 17, 2005 8:34AM

STEWART - What will we say about you when YOU are gone?

Everyone else is free to answer, of course.

shylock · July 17, 2005 9:52AM

STEWART - What will we say about you when YOU are gone?

"A numismatist who wasn't afraid to tell other collectors what he felt about them while they were still alive."

The NY Times obit, interesting reading.

keoj · July 17, 2005 10:52AM

I might be missing something here.......I'm sorry to see anyone pass on but I have a hard time celebrating his numismatic accomplishments if they were based on fraudulent transctions. Yeah, what a character.....get real, IF he made money by faking gold bars, etc. he was a thief. If he was not guilty, then I take it all back and he was a great guy.

keoj

oreville · July 17, 2005 11:12AM

The strange thing I remember about John Ford was when I first met him about 40 years ago at a coin dealership in New York City.

He TERRIFIED me. I did not like his stern, nasty demeanor and he was not friendly towards kids and teenagers. He had no use for kids.

I never forgot.

fc · July 17, 2005 11:15AM

keoj,

thank you for stating that. while others are showering love on the guy,
you are the first to point out the negative.

i really do not understand why rich people are congatulated for an accomplishment
when all it took was money. Money he more than likely aquired from Ford Sr.

He is a nobody in my book.

Mark · July 17, 2005 11:40AM

fc:

Apparently Ford did not acquire his money from Ford Sr. According to the obituary from which I earlier quoted, Ford Sr. lost his money and that might have been one reason Ford Jr. was so ... tight. You ought to read the obituary on the web page that Newmismatist linked. It has a ton of nasty stuff about Ford. If even 50% of it is true, there is NO way we should mourn his passing. But if 0% of it is true, then numismatics has lost a great collector. Unfortunately, I, personally, have no way of knowing but others on these boards, who met Ford, have caused me to give some credence to the "How the West Was Forged" website.

Mark

fc · July 17, 2005 11:43AM

mark,

i apologize and i stand corrected. I made an assumption that was incorrect if what you say is true.

Coinosaurus · July 17, 2005 11:49AM

The fact is the man worked very hard and earned his way to the top of the coin biz. The rest of the noise may or may not be true, and I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

Gemini · July 17, 2005 12:44PM

Speak about skeletons in everyones closet..If Ford is guilty of fakery he loses my respect. Some low blows I feel were thrown in the article "How The West Was Faked"... "Ford avoided combat in the Second World War by talking his way into a cryptography unit"...now after 60 years passing how could anyone know that..talk about research...if this is true I would shake Ford's hand for being the first G.I. that I know of that was able to dictate or B/S the military. Other innuendoes and dregs digging in this article makes me feel someone had an axe to grind.

northcoin · July 18, 2005 8:13PM

Well if he had no use for little kids that might actually be a positive in view of the above reporting about his contemporary Breen.

PerryHall · July 18, 2005 9:19PM

<< Well if he had no use for little kids that might actually be a positive in view of the above reporting about his contemporary Breen. >>

I hope you were trying to be funny. Not everyone who likes kids is a pedophile.

08822 · July 19, 2005 2:13AM

<< STEWART - What will we say about you when YOU are gone? >>

Here lies a man who, when unable to purchase a coin he wanted, made an effort to somewhat denigrate the piece.

BacknBlack · March 16, 2007 11:58PM

"By the middle of the 1950s these three numismatic luminaries Ford, Sheldon, and Breen were among the most admired scholars in the US field. ... Yet each was a criminal. Breen was a child molester. Sheldon was a thief. Ford was a forger."

These people make me sick.

IMO, their evil activities are ugly enough to destroy any credit they might otherwise deserve.

Sunnywood · March 17, 2007 12:19AM

I once wrote a thread here entitled something like "The Horrible Truth about Dr. William Sheldon." Despite his prodigious accomplishments in social anthropology and numismatics, he did quite a few really appalling, immoral and illegal things over the years. The record shows a consistent pattern of such behavior that cannot be dismissed. Sheldon's story is actually quite fascinating.

Breen was another moral nightmare, and that includes the ease with which he published assumptions as fact. Much of his research was valid, and much was not. His works are littered with errors and inaccuracies that will take years to sort out.

I don't know anything about J. Ford other than the substance of the incredible, incomprehensible collection that is being offered by Stack's ... I think they are up to Part SEVENTEEN of his collection ... with rarities of every kind and nature outside of regular-issue federal coinage. It would sadden me to learn that Mr. Ford belongs in the Pantheon of Shame along with Breen and Sheldon.

While none of us is perfect, it is an unfortunate truth that aggressively immoral folks often unjustly move to the head of the pack ...

Best,
Sunnywood

BiddlesBank · March 17, 2007 12:23AM

<< "By the middle of the 1950s these three numismatic luminaries Ford, Sheldon, and Breen were among the most admired scholars in the US field. ... Yet each was a criminal. Breen was a child molester. Sheldon was a thief. Ford was a forger." These people make me sick. IMO, their evil activities are ugly enough to destroy any credit they might otherwise deserve.

>>

Backnblack

I posted a thread a few days ago that offered John J Ford's perspective on the then new emerging slab market circa 1989. http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=575231

A few hours later you posted a threat accussing Ford of being a master forger. http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=575289

Now you have brought back to life this old post dated July 2005 to disclaim John J Ford, Walter Breen, and Sheldon.

So I am curious as to the agenda here. I mean it is fine with me and I think all these things need to be talked about and I plan on posting several more posts concerning John J Ford and Walter Breen so the competition is welcome even though I admit you probably know a heck of a lot more about these people than I do. May I steal quote from Will Rogers: " I only know what I read in the newspapers." That probably describes my knowlege best.

So may I inquire as to where your sources will be gathered from, or do you speak from personal knowledge?

Michigan · March 17, 2007 12:35AM

The introduction to Dave Bowers book "Adventures with Rare Coins" was written by John J. Ford in which he details some of his
collecting and dealing experiences with various coin dealers and collectors in the NYC area when he was still a teenager in the early 1940s.
Well worth reading IMO.

BacknBlack · March 17, 2007 12:52AM

...you have brought back to life this old post dated July 2005 to disclaim John J Ford, Walter Breen, and Sheldon.

So I am curious as to the agenda here.

So may I inquire as to where your sources will be gathered from, or do you speak from personal knowledge?

I despise these despicable individuals, (for their despicable actions) whom truly tarnish our hobby.

I speak from both personal experiences going back decades as well as from the public domain.

I believe these scoundrels shouldn't be praised and that THEIR PAST ACTIONS SHOULD HAUNT THEIR LEGACIES FOREVER.

Text

BiddlesBank · March 17, 2007 1:13AM

<< ...you have brought back to life this old post dated July 2005 to disclaim John J Ford, Walter Breen, and Sheldon. So I am curious as to the agenda here. So may I inquire as to where your sources will be gathered from, or do you speak from personal knowledge? I despise these despicable individuals, (for their despicable actions) whom truly tarnish our hobby. I speak from both personal experiences going back decades as well as from the public domain. I believe these scoundrels shouldn't be praised and that THEIR PAST ACTIONS SHOULD HAUNT THEIR LEGACIES FOREVER. Text >>

Backnblack

I am off to a flower show for my wife's birthday so this will be my last post until later.

But first a question. Walter Breen was a convicted pedophile and died in prison so I agree it is a quandary for collectors.

Given his sordid behavior, should we burn all of Breen't reference books?

coindeuce · March 17, 2007 1:28AM

I'll bet if Eric Newman participated here we would all get an earful...

BacknBlack · March 17, 2007 1:32AM

Backnblack

I am off to a flower show for my wife's birthday so this will be my last post until later.

But first a question. Walter Breen was a convicted pedophile and died in prison so I agree it is a quandary for collectors.

Given his sordid behavior, should we burn all of Breen't reference books?

Of course we should NOT "burn all of Breen's reference books".
I'm only asserting that when these despicable individuals are referenced there sordid behavior should come back to haunt them.

IMO, they should never be praised.
Regardless, their despicable acts should never be forgotten.

denga · March 17, 2007 1:50AM

BacknBlack Saturday March 17, 2007 10:52 AM

..you have brought back to life this old post dated July 2005 to disclaim John J Ford, Walter Breen, and Sheldon ...

I despise these despicable individuals, (for their despicable actions) whom truly tarnish our hobby.
I speak from both personal experiences going back decades as well as from the public domain.
I believe these scoundrels shouldn't be praised and that THEIR PAST ACTIONS SHOULD HAUNT THEIR LEGACIES FOREVER.

************
I never met Dr. Sheldon but his numismatic actions, if the accusations are correct – and I think they are, did tarnish the hobby.

In the case of Walter Breen his activities outside numismatics have been universally condemned but I knew him for several decades
and he never mentioned any of his outside "interests" with the exception of the update of Bierce's "Devil's Dictionary." He did
sometimes allude to the books written by his wife (Marian Zimmer Bradley, as I knew her slightly), however, mostly in connection
with research he did for her as background material. BacknBlack condemns Breen's numismatics on the basis of his other activities,
which is not acceptable. If we banned any work by an individual whose private life was in some way unacceptable, there would be
many less books, paintings, && for the world to enjoy.

In the case of John Ford the comments by BacknBlack are not even worth discussing. I knew Ford from the early 1960s and the
characterizations by BacknBlack are of no value; Cheap Shots do not impress me.

Denga

BacknBlack · March 17, 2007 1:35PM

In the case of Walter Breen his activities outside numismatics have been universally condemned but I knew him for several decades
and he never mentioned any of his outside "interests" with the exception of the update of Bierce's "Devil's Dictionary." He did
sometimes allude to the books written by his wife (Marian Zimmer Bradley, as I knew her slightly), however, mostly in connection
with research he did for her as background material. BacknBlack condemns Breen's numismatics on the basis of his other activities,
which is not acceptable. If we banned any work by an individual whose private life was in some way unacceptable, there would be
many less books, paintings, && for the world to enjoy.

In the case of John Ford the comments by BacknBlack are not even worth discussing. I knew Ford from the early 1960s and the
characterizations by BacknBlack are of no value; Cheap Shots do not impress me.
Denga

BackNblack responds:
The fact that Walter Breen did not mention his outside activities to you is irrelevant. Child molestation is a horrible, heinous act. His accomplishments should always carry an asterisk. I never suggested his works be banned, quite the contrary as the question was posed to me and I answered accordingly. Additionally, he routinely mis-attributed coins for money. I know this first hand as do many others.

Regarding John Ford, you mention my comments as being not worth discussing. What comments are you referring to? I only suggested that he may have been a counterfeiter as the evidence indicates. I also provided links to what appears to be a preponderance of evidence that he was at best a scoundrel and at worst a serial criminal. This information is consistent with those that have been in the business for a long time.

Ignoring the despicable conduct of those above condones there behavior. IMO, that is a grave error.

Julio · March 17, 2007 1:58PM

My condolences. jws

gemtone65 · March 17, 2007 2:04PM

I'm holding in my hand a copy of the November 1979 Garrett Sale from Stacks. At the sale I asked two numismatists to sign my catalogue. One signature says "Compliments, Abe Kosoff." The other signature says "Best wishes, JJ Ford."

BiddlesBank · March 17, 2007 2:34PM

<< I'm holding in my hand a copy of the November 1979 Garrett Sale from Stacks. At the sale I asked two numismatists to sign my catalogue. One signature says "Compliments, Abe Kosoff." The other signature says "Best wishes, JJ Ford." >>

GEMTONE65

There are now 4 John J Ford threads active in the last 2 days. There are those that believe that John J Ford, Walter Breen, and Sheldon should be ignored and forgotten about in the world of numismatics or at least wear a dead albatross around their necks. Which of course is a little difficult as they have all passed on to the other side, whereever that may be.

Run a word search for FORD and you can find the threads. The last one that I just posted at: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=575698

The last thread is intended as humor but I believe there will be some lenghty discussions about these three deceased numismatists for a while longer on the CU forum. In my opinion the subject should be aired out and hopefully without any bitterness. Especially in light of the 17 volumes now published by Stacks Auction House devoted exclusively to John J Ford. Over 4,500 pages.

denga · March 17, 2007 11:13PM

BacknBlack Saturday March 17, 2007 11:35 PM

The fact that Walter Breen did not mention his outside activities to you is irrelevant. Child molestation is a horrible, heinous act. His accomplishments should always carry an asterisk. I never suggested his works be banned, quite the contrary as the question was posed to me and I answered accordingly. Additionally, he routinely mis-attributed coins for money. I know this first hand as do many others.

Regarding John Ford, you mention my comments as being not worth discussing. What comments are you referring to? I only suggested that he may have been a counterfeiter as the evidence indicates. I also provided links to what appears to be a preponderance of evidence that he was at best a scoundrel and at worst a serial criminal. This information is consistent with those that have been in the business for a long time.

Ignoring the despicable conduct of those above condones there behavior. IMO, that is a grave error.

**********************

It is always interesting to hear from those who play the shell game so common at the old carnivals. Breen's numismatic works, says BacknBlack, should not be banned but should carry an asterisk concerning his non-numismatic activities, which would effectively destroy their useful value; in practical terms that is censorship no matter what BacknBlack says. BacknBlack also claims that he knows first-hand that Breen mis-attributed coins for money; I suggest that he prove this with exact times, places AND credible witnesses.

BacknBlack's comments about John Ford are, as before, little better than cheap shots and innuendo. The "preponderance" of evidence is an interesting comment as it is an opinion and nothing more. There is no evidence that John Ford was a counterfeiter, period; saying so repeatedly does not make something true. The charge about Ford about being a "serial criminal" is bizarre.

I will leave BacknBlack with an interesting thought. One of the chief accusers of Ford is Dr. Buttrey. I was at the famous debate some years ago where Dr. Buttrey repeatedly spoke of the "Assay Bars" as being false. There is no such thing as an Assay Bar, the correct term being Assayer's Bar. If Ford's chief accuser cannot even get the terminology correct, then what are the accusations worth? I also wonder why BacknBlack did not bring up this point himself if he understands the matter as well as he claims.

I am also waiting for an answer to the other question I posed. Should ALL artistic materials produced by those whose personal lives do not meet the standards of BacknBlack have an asterisk by their names so that all will know of their "other" activities? The list will be a long one and I am sure that BacknBlack will provide us with lists of those to avoid. Or is it just Ford and Breen who should have the asterisks and no one else?

Denga

John Ford has passed away

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