John J Ford JR: Master Forger?
BacknBlack
Posts: 49
John J Ford JR: Master Forger?
After viewing a recent post praising J. Ford I thought that the following needed to be posted.
I think he does not deserve the respect of the numismatic community (quite the contrary).
Please read...
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/johnfordobituary.htm
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/how/how.html
After viewing a recent post praising J. Ford I thought that the following needed to be posted.
I think he does not deserve the respect of the numismatic community (quite the contrary).
Please read...
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/johnfordobituary.htm
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/how/how.html
"There's no free lunch" MF
0
Comments
I don't remember where but I also read something to the like about the time that The SS Republic items were being brought to market. I bet Kagin could shed some more light on the subject.
Huntington Bars were among a few of the names I remember as having a very doubtful pedigree and Ford was somehow involved.
Nice catch Pat.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
But to focus on the positive, JJF was one of the pioneers in modern auction cataloguing who brought a whole new level of scholarship to the game. His obsession with non-federal issues has engendered a much needed historical perspective into our hobby.
Stack's deserve kudos as well for creating masterpiece catalogs and distributing them widely (I suspect beyond way beyond their "usual" mailing list).
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
<< <i>John J Ford JR: Master Forger? After viewing a recent post praising J. Ford I thought that the following needed to be posted. I think he does not deserve the respect of the numismatic community (quite the contrary). Please read... http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/johnfordobituary.htm http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/ http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/how/how.html >>
Backnblack
I started the other thread but I want to let you know I really appreciate the post you made here. Thank you.
Constrast is what makes a coin look beautiful and seeing both sides of the coin is important. There were many Ford distractors in his life.
The Lilly commission ordered by congress even got in the act. But Ford's main distractor refused to participate as I remember it. I will be doing much more research the next 10 days and posting it on my web site at www.earlymint.com and will read all the articles you linked to.
However I did read one half of your first link and there was some real bias in that article which is evident even if you don't know anything about coins or not. For instance why did it attack Ford's military record which was more than honorable? And there is a long list of such slurs.
As far as Walter Breen they only occupied the same office. Ford thought Breen was totally weird but he recognized Breens' genius.
More later.
Best regards - R. Zornes
<< <i>I have tremendous respect for FCC Boyd. >>
I agree with this statement, as it was Boyd who assembled the great majority of what comprised the "Ford" collection.
Ford was able to buy the entire collection, intact, from Boyd's widow for, in layman's terms, squat.
<< <i>Anyone that assembles a collection like Ford's deserves respect.
>>
Bill Gates could create the greatest collection ever assembled, doesn't mean I would respect him because of it. When you have the money you can buy everything that comes across your plate and then at the end say "Wow, what a great collection I have".
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Andy Lustig
Your logic is without logic, or you have very little self respect.
How do you square that sentiment with this comment of yours in another thread: "As far as I'm concerned, stealing $1000 through counterfeiting is no worse than stealing $1000 at gunpoint. How much time would they get for the $1000 robbery?"
If what's written in the "obituary" (the first article cited by BackInBlack) is true, then Ford is much more deserving of condemnation than of respect.
Come on guys. The first link provided on the top of this post reads like a dime store novel.
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/johnfordobituary.htm
It is so full of hate and bias the author doesn't even come close to masking his contempt. I am sure given enough time the author would have criticized Ford by the way he ate his ice cream.
A person is going to have to dig deeper than this article to come to an objective conclusion.
For those who don't know, Ford was not related to any of the famously rich Fords. He earned his money as a paper boy in the late 1930's. He had the intellegence to memorize the whole "Adams-Woodin" text on US pattern coins that was in the city library. And then he quietly went around New York city cherry picking coins in coin dealer shops for bargain prices as most dealers had not a clue as to what they were selling.
Is this unethical for a high school kid to do?
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Andy Lustig
HOW one acquires one's possessions is MORE IMPORTANT than WHAT possessions they aquire.
Your value system is screwed up.
Nobody is dismissing the work of the person who assembled the Ford Collection - some of us are merely pointing out that the person was not John J. Ford.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
<< <i>It's unfair to dismiss all of Ford's work on the collection because of some apparent character flaws.
Nobody is dismissing the work of the person who assembled the Ford Collection - some of us are merely pointing out that the person was not John J. Ford. >>
It would interesting to see what percentage pof all of the lots in the John Ford Collection sales auctioned by Stack's were actually purchased intact from FCC Boyd's widow. I would guess the answer to be 95%, and that might be light.
Show me the proof.
Show me the proof.
Proof of what?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
COLONIAL COIN UNION
This I would like to know more about. I am not disputing your assertion but would like to know more.
According to Ford, or at least what I remember, Mrs. Norweb insisted Mrs Boyd sell her the whole collection intact. According to Ford he got caught in between these two women arguing about the disposition of the Boyd coins. According to Ford Mrs. Boyd wanted the collection sold to collectors as her husband would have wanted. But Mrs. Norweb got really hot and accused Ford of persuading Mrs Boyd not to sell the collection to her.
Ford claims he innocently got caught in between the argument and lost Mrs Norweb as a client after that.
Now I don't find Ford's explanation as being out of order because I know of at least two very large collections in the Bust Half Dollar series being sold to collectors instead of through big auction houses as the owners had specified they wanted the coins in collector's hands, not dealers.
I was stating the simple fact that the great majority of Ford's collection came intact from one person.
<< <i>I wasn't discussing or debating how the negotiations took place or what the terms were (or even how Mrs. Norweb felt about it). I was stating the simple fact that the great majority of Ford's collection came intact from one person. >>
Thats fine. I am not challenging you. I am just curious how a person like me can find out more information.
For instance has this fact been written about in a public publication?
Or, since you apparently deal in these items were you able to trace them back?
No offense intended.
Edited for clarity.
Several of the major components of the collection - including the celebrated New Jersey coppers, Vermont coppers and Connecticut coppers passed intact to Ford and were never added to or upgraded (though there would have been many opportunities for him to have done so if he were so inclined) during the entire tenure of his ownership. Hence the perception among some that Ford simply bought the coins intact and added little - both literally and figuratively.
I can think of just a dozen or so coins of other types which Ford purchased at either the Garrett or Roper sales which were attributed as such in the Ford catalogs.
He seemed to have been more active in the French Colonies area, and there were notes of him buying pieces for relatively short money in the 1970s from a few foreign dealers or scattered auctions.
I did not go back and review all of of the past Ford catalogs while writing this, so I may have missed some, but by and large that's how it was.
Russ, NCNE
Ford was a brilliant marketer, a decent numismatist and a complete scoundrel.
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Unlike regulated, one supects, I did know John Ford and had many interesting private converstations with him over the years,
especially in the 1970s. He told me a number of stories, which I knew to be true from other sources, about his distaste for counterfeits
and stolen coins. One of the more interesting involved a major theft from a certain museum some decades ago. Ford was able
to track down some of the missing pieces but the curator was unable to identify the pieces because of a failure to keep adequate records.
My personal view is that he was honest. Like all of us he was a sharp trader and had a keen eye for making a profit. Was he fooled
on occasion? Perhaps, but then all of us have been to some degree or other.
He was also very interested in numismatic history and had gone to great lengths to search out obscure facts regarding coins. He did
not, however, publish very much despite the urging of the undersigned and others who knew him.
Denga
and stolen coins. One of the more interesting involved a major theft from a certain museum some decades ago. Ford was able
to track down some of the missing pieces but the curator was unable to identify the pieces because of a failure to keep adequate records.
DENGA
I found your post refreshing and thank you for posting. This thread was started as an anti-Ford campaign.
Concerning the museum recoveries I quote from the Legacy interview with Ford circa 1990.
FORD: Many museum people ..... just want to exist.... I have been involved for a long time in the recovery of stolen property, and I have had experience with a lot of institutions that have some very fine numismatic items that were stolen or mysteriously disappeared. The directors adn curators want nothing to do with anybody who says something is missing. They just want to ignore it. They don't even acknowledge anything is missing.
LEGACY: Why is that?
FORD: Mainly because they don't know what they own in many cases, or if they know, they don't want any publicity ..... I can name 6 institutions that have been cleaned out in the last 15 years and they don't admit anything is missing . . . the best contributions to the science and to the hobby generally originate with individual collectors.
End of quote.
Doesn't seem like a greedy man to me.
Please Google Mr. Kleeberg and see if you think he is a credible source of information.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>The author of the articles linked by the original poster was John Kleeberg. Please Google Mr. Kleeberg and see if you think he is a credible source of information. >>
I am a guppy in a shark tank.
However I will note that it is unfortunate that backnblack had to point the CU forum to this link to start off his topic.
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/johnfordobituary.htm
The article, by Kleeberg, is tabloid writing and lacks any objective scholarly effort. It is full of irrelevant slurs on the character of Mr. Ford.
So my question is why did backnblack not speak for himself rather than rely on the obviously bigoted referenced article?
Edited for accuracy on names quoted.
<< <i><< The author of the articles linked by the original poster was John Kleeberg. Please Google Mr. Kleeberg and see if you think he is a credible source of information. >>
I am a guppy in a shark tank.
However I will note that it is unfortunate that Mr Kleeberg had to point the CU forum to this link to start off his topic.
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/johnfordobituary.htm
The article is tabloid writing and lacks any objective scholarly effort. It is full of irrelevant slurs on the character of Mr. Ford.
So my question is why did Mr. Kleenberg not speak for himself rather than rely on the obviously bigotted referenced article? >>
You seem to be confused. The author of this thread is not John Kleeberg. The author of the linked article is. Again, do your research on the man. You won't find anybody who questions his credentials.
Russ, NCNE
If Keenberg's article is not tabloid writing then I would have to believe Liz Taylor just delivered another 2 headed baby.
I may only know a fraction of what is being discussed here but I know the difference between tabloid writing and objective scholarly writing.
It would be nice to actually learn something of SUBSTANTIATED value on this thread.
<< <i>.
If Keenberg's article is not tabloid writing then I would have to believe Liz Taylor just delivered another 2 headed baby.
I may only know a fraction of what is being discussed here but I know the difference between tabloid writing and objective scholarly writing.
It would be nice to actually learn something of SUBSTANTIATED value on this thread. >>
Well, for starters, you could learn that the author's name is Kleeberg, not Keenberg. And then you could Google John Kleeberg and see what kind of man he is, and that he has written a number of well-known and respected numismatic books and articles.
Or you could continue to offer your opinion on this topic despite the fact that you seem to know absolutely nothing about it.
As for me, I'm going to bed.
I hate these childish spats.
Perhaps if I have time I will read everything on the internet but the Kleeburg article is tabloid style and I just about puked reading throught it. If this is his style then I have little interest in what he writes unless he writes my wife.
I have no idea if Kleeberg is correct or not. But do keep in mind that there were lawsuits flying around. I expect that in this sort of situation you'd also be a tad on the peeved side...especially if you thought you were 100% correct but could not get the justice system to agree. Of course, you might not be so peeved to write an obituary such as that in the link. So, I surely concur with you that the obituary is surely polemic. But the other articles on the web page are rather more scholarly.
One thing I think we can ALL agree upon is that after our deaths, I sure hope no one writes a similar obituary about us!
Ford's ego would not let him admit that he might have been wrong about anything, and his rabid defense of the fakes caused many people to think that he did protest too much. I remember when Ted Buttrey published an article in Mexico that utterly demolished the HISP ET ID gold bars as fakes, that he then offered to Coin World to publish in America. Ford threatened Coin World with a lawsuit, and the article was never published there. This was seen by some as the act of a guilty conscience. It may just have been the sign of a massive ego.
TD
Thank you Mark. Your comments were gracious.
Also, for those who pointed out that the JJF collection was all from Clapp, how come a lot of the books in JJF's library were written after Clapp's death? Don't forget that Kolbe had a monster sale of the JJF library.
I actually did meet Mr. Ford in his twilight years, and found him to be a fascinating individual. My comment that he was a scoundrel is based upon my firm belief that he either knowingly sold fakes, or was not expert enough to detect obvious (and provable) forgeries, yet passed himself off as THE expert authenticator of Western Americana, using his position to bully people into accepting his incorrect point of view. Being wrong is one thing, being wrong and impossibly arrogant is quite another.
As for Kleeberg's writing, I couldn't care less about his credentials - Biddles is right: those articles are tripe. They are light on fact and heavy on circumstantial evidence and unsound reasoning. His writing does nothing in my mind to prove his contentions.
Hopefully I have offended everyone.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
<< <i>You could write a book about this whole thing. Ugh, someone probably will. From all I've read, I'd vote for Cap'n Henway's theory.
Also, for those who pointed out that the JJF collection was all from Clapp, how come a lot of the books in JJF's library were written after Clapp's death? Don't forget that Kolbe had a monster sale of the JJF library. >>
I think you've confused Clapp for Boyd.
My earlier comments were about Ford's coins, not his library.
<< <i>And let us not forget that this is the same Mr. Kleeberg who did an absolute hatchet job on Dr. Sheldon a few years ago. Not that Sheldon didn't deserve criticism, but the tone and invective in this diatribe was very similar to tone in the Ford article. Makes me think this fellow is either insanely jealous or has very serious personal issues. It also seems to be a prerequisite that the person being written about has to be dead so there is no chance to defend oneself. >>
This thread was started by BacknBlack in response to another thread praising John Ford.
The OPs point was that there was another side to the man, and to illustrate that other view he linked the various Kleeberg articles.
Now Kleeberg is not some anonymous guy who posted a blog on the internet; he is in my mind a credible source. And while you don't have to like Kleeberg's style of writing, and you can even call it a 'hatchet job' if you want, he was not the first person to make such accusations, and he is hardly alone in his views. I would say that the comments of Regulated and CaptHenway, who are also credible sources, confirm at least some of the sentiment intended by this thread.
I have read Mr. Kleeberg's writings in the past and I find him to be a talented numismatist. He did, however, let his emotions drive the linked article. It could have been written differently (more matter-of-fact).
Messrs. Kleeberg, Buttrey, Newman and Ford all have at least one thing in common; they are/were extremely knowledgable numismatists. Perhaps there is not a lot of love in the air, but if you could get all of them in the same room......well, just imagine the conversations. I would love to be a fly on the wall at that gathering.