How to detect Real or Fake GW smooth Dollar.

bigMACnoCheese · March 11, 2007 3:24AM

Lots of talk on fake smooth rim GW dollars.
This is a discussion on identifying fakes.

Not so easy to fake.
looking at the edge, a fake one would most likely have grinding in a perimeter direction to remove the print.
This can easily be detected.
If you were to grind in the obverse to reverse or the other direction, you will remove the top clad layer that shears into the edge.
Everyone of mine show the clad layer sheared into the rim edge. Griding would remove this and display more of the core.

Now if you were to shear the edge off with a circlular hole cutter, you would most likely flatten the obverse or reverse rim, and you would also need to reproduce the slight lip before the sheared edge that is evident and recreate the luster from the shearing in the same fine pattern.

Look at picture for lip on edge. All of my smoothies have this, and I think this will be the deciding factor in determing a fake.

basestealer · March 11, 2007 3:26AM

Wouldn't it measure considerably less, too? Weight and size would be reduced.

combatmailman · March 11, 2007 3:28AM

Thats good logic, but, someone will figure a way to do it if they really want to.

rgl1345 · March 11, 2007 3:34AM

Well, glad I sold the 6 I smoothed before you came along.

dcarr · March 11, 2007 3:34AM

<< Lots of talk on fake smooth rim GW dollars.
This is a discussion on identifying fakes.

Not so easy to fake.
looking at the edge, a fake one would most likely have grinding in a perimeter direction to remove the print.
This can easily be detected.
If you were to grind in the obverse to reverse or the other direction, you will remove the top clad layer that shears into the edge.
Everyone of mine show the clad layer sheared into the rim edge. Griding would remove this and display more of the core.

Now if you were to shear the edge off with a circlular hole cutter, you would most likely flatten the obverse or reverse rim, and you would also need to reproduce the slight lip before the sheared edge that is evident and recreate the luster from the shearing in the same fine pattern.

Look at picture for lip on edge. All of my smoothies have this, and I think this will be the deciding factor in determing a fake. >>

I think you are right. These are harder to fake than most people think. When examining a coin for a possible removed mint mark, there are surface textures and characteristics in the area of the mint mark that you will look for. It is no different with the edge. Replicating the precise surface charcteristics after removing the edge lettering is extremely difficult.

combatmailman · March 11, 2007 3:40AM

They may be harder to fake, but if someone wants to do it they will and the average joe will not know the difference and pay big bucks for one and it not authentic, whereas the experienced eye should catch it.

LALASD4 · March 11, 2007 4:10AM

We don't really know how difficult it would be until someone with the machinary to do some experiments.

pf70collector · March 11, 2007 4:20AM

I examined mine and had my doubts that it was real so off to PCGS it went since I really don't have one to compare to.
I saw vertical striations on the edge but the clad layer was still intact just above the striations on the edge. The clad layer was even just above the vertical striations on the edge.

FredWeinberg · March 11, 2007 4:48AM

I think the important fact to remember
is that although any "fake plain Edges"
might be very easily identified in person,
I'm concerned about Ebay listings with
bad scans that prevent bidders from making
a determination one way or the other.

Yes, at a coin shop or coin show, they will
be easy to detect, but NOT via scans only
on Ebay listiings, imo.

lathmach · March 11, 2007 5:09AM

The best hope for telling if these have been altered is to mic them.
I figure it'll take the removal .006 to .008 stock on diameter to remove the lettering, ............. That's just from my eyeballing them.
I don't know for certain, because I haven't tried to do it.
I've owned a machine shop for 31 years, and have done metal work 41 years, BTW.
The shear marks on the coins outer diameter from the planchet punch, are perpendicular to the obverse-reverse. This can be somewhat duplicated using a CNC mill, circular interpolating the diameter, such that most people will be fooled. Most likely, only machinists will be able to notice any difference.
Using a mic to determine the diameter will go a long way in detecting fakes. It won't be enough though.
It's possible, that a knowledgeable highly skilled machinist, may compress the rim to expand the diameter, so when the OD is machined to remove the wording, that the diameter falls with mint tolerances.
I am a very highly skilled machinist, and I own my own machine shop.
You guys just be glad I'm not a scoundrel.

Oh...................... Lets get some machinists to weigh in here. Comments appreciated.

Ray

LALASD4 · March 11, 2007 5:18AM

Better yet, lets have some machinists do it and see the results. That way, we could have something to compare to.

ricko · March 11, 2007 5:19AM

I do not, and will not, collect these. However, I find the entire subject intriguing... and since it is coin related, I study all the threads related to counterfeiting... I think (my opinion) that it will be hard to fool board members.. the effort required for even a reasonably good fake seems to be considerable. The best would take a machinist a serious effort, and while weight may not determine validity (in some cases), dimensions and possible evidence of press work would almost certainly expose the work. Very interesting... Cheers, RickO

messydesk · March 11, 2007 5:22AM

If there are enough people out there to force the bidding on real ones to $800 a pop, then there are going to be plenty of bidiots who will put down $20 for a fake one, even if it isn't Chinese.

SUMORADA · March 11, 2007 7:46AM

in an earliar post i had stated that because a friend of mine had said that these cannot faked,i did one to show him i still have it, it took less then 5 min,'m a goldsmith,i also stated that i would not post how to do it and i won't, but be aware it can and will be done i'm sure,the weight and the OD will be close enough to fool 98% of the semi and untrained folks out there,as to the golden layer on the rim,again not hard to do, when i posted before i sensed a little .............whatever?????.............from a couple of the members, so i was hesitant to post this,please know that i'm only posting what i know so that people will be aware of the things to look for,not that most of the members here could be fooled by something like this but i have hand-worked various metals everyday for the past 32 years,it's what i do, we can all be had,i have learned alot from the folks on this forum and was just trying to give something back............so with that said anybody want to buy a smoothie cheap!!!!JUST KIDDING, i don't have any yet but still searching,
here is a suggestion that i hope will keep somebody from getting ripped! if you think it's the real deal,weight and diameter etc. check i more thing, instead of laying the coin flat and measuring the diameter with a mic or millimeter gauge, use something like a LEVERIDGE GAUGE that has small round points that can contact the coin in the center of the rim instead of the flat millimeter gauge type,the idea being is that you want to measure the most narrow part of the coin not the two outside edges,in the case of a fake the center will measure slightly smaller then the outside edges. hope this saves somebody from getting ripped.............

thisnamztaken · March 11, 2007 7:52AM

<< Well, glad I sold the 6 I smoothed before you came along. >>

ricko · March 11, 2007 7:53AM

Thanks Sumorada... one more data point, and very much appreciated from an expert in the metals field. Cheers, RickO

Hugegut · March 11, 2007 8:02AM

lasvegasteddy · March 11, 2007 8:27AM

as a fellow machinist myself i'll chime in...,
i can envision the a simple process of just using an "od" broach that i made out of tool steel then hardened...simple tool to make
"should replicate the punch pressed planchets from a sheet fine."
of note these are not clad...simply a golden alloy is all and the ring people see on the edge of a lettered one is tool marks from the rollers used to steady for a 3rd roller with external lettering to press in against
"i'd leave the shearing marks of my od broach on"
as these coins skipped getting roller marks
if dia was a concern there'd be no problem that a "hollowed out" arbhor die to protect design and merely press the rim enough to expand it-one could balance thickness and dia accordingly but tolerances aren't that tight and normal people have no clue shoot i'd bet most haven't a clue on accurate measuring muchless if their tools are even in calibration(some probably have plastic calipers ya know)
i myself used to work in the aerospace industry where nothing was impossible to produce and we still have other country's baffled in our technology.
5 axis cnc proto-type,cnc programmer certified some 20 years ago,from 3 spindle cinnci 5 axis gantry's with 270 foot long tables to keeping 3 manuals cranking with kick out dogs on ways.tightest work i've done was in a shop that shut down if temparature varied more then 4 degrees whilst rejecting parts for .00001
never worked at the mint "that i can say" but almost made it at livermoore labs but they had a freeze on hiring-oh well
coins and coining them truly isn't rocket science

Overdate · March 11, 2007 8:54AM

Like any other key, I would prefer to own a slabbed one rather than a raw one. Less worrying about authenticity, and easier to resell when the time comes.

Julio · March 11, 2007 8:55AM

This thread has been excellent.
My question? Is doing this at current price levels reasonable?
Anyone think fakes are/will be a problem? jws

ricko · March 11, 2007 8:59AM

As has been noted... fakes are already out there... Cheers, RickO

lasvegasteddy · March 11, 2007 8:59AM

"My question? Is doing this at current price levels reasonable?
Anyone think fakes are/will be a problem?"
i vote yes as i'm sure many have crudely ground dia's down already and at current price levels you bet...
you could pump these out

Julio · March 11, 2007 9:30AM

Thanks.
I get the felling, "buyer beware"; seems appropriate.
Modern technology. Go figure. jws

lasvegasteddy · March 11, 2007 10:00AM

before i get thrashed around here i may add..,
i have no clue on how deep the lettering and how much would have to be shaved off the "od" .
hugegut stating he's taken a rough measurement please note-that's a compressed size due to the lettering process.
so a simple measuring would work fine noting that the size of an unlettered would be a little larger...guessing only at around .003/.005.
not that i'd buy one but if family or friend did-i'd check it's size and send it back if it was less then a lettered one and use hugegut's number as reference as i've no tools to include my own measurement as i gave all my tools and books to an apprentice and walked away from machining to live and enjoy life in vegas the simple styles-one day at a time...;-)

Writersblock · March 12, 2007 6:04AM

<< note these are not clad...simply a golden alloy is all and the ring people see on the edge of a lettered one is tool marks from the rollers used to steady for a 3rd roller with external lettering to press in against >>

Try again, these ARE clad coins.

<< "i'd leave the shearing marks of my od broach on"
as these coins skipped getting roller marks >>

Actually they should have roller marks from the upsetting of the edge of the planchet.

You also have to get the planchet surfaces and luster right on the flat of the edge including flow lines from where it was pressed against the plain collar and then ejected. You should be able to see on a plain edge coin traces of the metal shear from the blank punching, roller marks for the upsetting mill (mainly on the "beveled' area between the flat edge and the rims), and a flat surface similar to the field surfaces of the struck coin, with luster and fine ejection marks.

I do agree that an unlettered edge should be very slightly greater in diameter since it doesn't get the final compression of the edge.

I also agree tha it would be fairly easy to fool a non-collector or a novice, but I would think and experienced collector, especially an error collector should be able to spot an altered piece.

lasvegasteddy · March 12, 2007 7:08AM

"Try again, these ARE clad coins"

interesting correction to my post as i must of ruined and expensive dollar then...,
as when i filed deep into all surfaces all i found was a even mixture of alloys-no seperation of compositions or colors of alloys like a standard post 64'...try it yourself as theres no plating-no sandwhiching of color at all

as to the other about raising an edge on blank planchets....
a simple understanding of die's for stamping would tell you that isn't required to produce what the mint is.
a simple shearing of sheet into disc's-disc's then falling into a collar where a top and bottom die produce the sides-then off to a final operation where they'd sit against 2 steady rollers while the 3rd roller presses in for 1 revolution.
proficency in machine shop practise tells you to "keep it simple and the fewer the operations the better"

so i ask what's with a seperate operation for raising an edge here?does the us mint do this on these?better yet is there any us mint workers here who truly know?

lathmach · March 12, 2007 7:19AM

You're missing an operation, lasvegastedy.
The planchets go through an upsetting machine to raise metal for the rims before being struck.
Machine shops refer to the machine as an "upsetter".
The mint workers call the upsetter the "rimmer".

Ray

lasvegasteddy · March 12, 2007 7:55AM

hayy ray,
could be i'm just missing in operation and love it too out here in vegas...;-)
i do gotta pass that i miss crankin handles sometimes and always remember there ray...
who it was that invented that slinky aye
;-)

lasvegasteddy · March 12, 2007 7:59AM

for any who didn't know who invented the slinky it was a lathe machinst

bigMACnoCheese · March 12, 2007 8:05AM

The true blank edge, has more metal sheared into the edge, or is more noticeable. The edge rolling produces a more uniform coloring or mixing of the metals.

So if you grind it off, it will look more like a nonblank edge, because you are taking the sheared, or metal pushed down over the edge away.

The only way you could do this is to reshear it, grinding will not work. To do that you need to repress the coin to make the diameter larger.

Second, 5 thousands would not be enough to remove the lettering. I calculate at least 7 to 10 thousands and that would need to be taken off the whole edge, so from one side to the other side, (eyeing depth of print compared to 2 sheets of 20 bond paper - 20 bond paper is ~ .0038 inches) you would have a 14 - 20 thousands difference.

Somone earlier stated they mic'ed a range of 1.043 to 1.045, I have weighted 200 coins between 7.88 and 8.05 grams

best you could hope for would be 1.045 with 8.05 grams starting with an end result of 1.045 - .014 = 1.031 which will produce a volume difference of 0.001802 cu inches = gram difference of of the original 8.05 down 0.014495gms = 8.03gms, so weight would qualify.

One more hitch though, the current blank edges are slightly larger, so starting with an already reduced size, makes the total diameter difference larger.
You would end up with a coin coming in somewhere around 1.035 without repressing it.

morgansforever · March 12, 2007 8:08AM

<<The best hope for telling if these have been altered is to mic them.>>

I managed to turn about .007 of an inch off. The problem is that there is copper in the

center, and now it's visible when looking at the edge. Tried buffing it with a wheel, no luck.

Guess I'll have to keep searching for the no edge.

notwilight · March 12, 2007 8:09AM

<< Thats good logic, but, someone will figure a way to do it if they really want to. >>

Not for $50.

manymortages · March 12, 2007 1:54PM

Does anyone know what is the best tool (at the lowest cost) to measure the coin and where can I buy one?

I just received my $200 smoothie in the mail and I want to be sure it is not a fake.

Thank you!

lasvegasteddy · March 12, 2007 2:56PM

hay many,
a local hardware shop should have inexpensive 0-6" dial calipers as it would be advised

Hugegut · March 12, 2007 3:05PM

How to detect Real or Fake GW smooth Dollar.

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