Where have I been for the past 17 years?? I had no idea he died, let alone that he was killed by a satellite dish:
<< <i>On November 23, 1990, Diaz was killed by a satellite dish that he was adjusting on the roof of his home in Caracas, Venezuela that fell on him. He was 37 years old. >>
"Poor broad. Back in ’78 I would have given my left leg to sleep with her but now I wouldn’t touch her with ol’ Fisky’s ding-a-ling, let alone my own. Did she get hit by a bus on the way here?" - Sparky Anderson
oh wait, I thought you said baseball's greatest kisser...my bad
In terms of hitting, Piazza's first, hands down. My apologoes to Josh Gibson, but I obviously never saw the man play. Tough to make a judgement based on what you've heard and not what you've seen. Overall though I'd go with Bench. Piazza's inability to throw out baserunners is a major mark against him.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Fellas, I think you are all forgetting about the first-ballot HOF currently playing: Pudge. Numbers wise, he does not have the homeruns as Berra or Bench, but he has a better average and is faster on the base paths. He has more gold gloves than Bench, who has the reputation as the best fielder. And he probably leads all-time in pick-offs and throwing out runners percentage-wise. MVPs: Berra has 3, Bench has 2, and Pudge has 1. And do not forget how he helped turn around the Tigers from dweller to league champs with his work with the young pitchers. I am not saying he is the best (because when he was with the Rangers, he had a reputation as not working well with pitchers), but in any discussion about the best catchers all-time, he has to be in the discussion.
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA
Ivan Rodriguez 2023 7745 1159 2354 473 42 277 1119 437 1125 112 56 .304 • 1992: American League Gold Glove at C • 1993: American League Gold Glove at C • 1994: American League Gold Glove at C • 1995: American League Gold Glove at C • 1996: American League Gold Glove at C • 1997: American League Gold Glove at C • 1998: American League Gold Glove at C • 1999: American League Most Valuable Player • 1999: American League Gold Glove at C • 2000: American League Gold Glove at C • 2001: American League Gold Glove at C • 2003: NLCS Most Valuable Player • 2004: American League Silver Slugger • 2004: American League Gold Glove at C • 2006: American League Gold Glove at C
Yogi Berra 2120 7555 1175 2150 321 49 358 1430 704 414 30 26 .285 Awards: • 1951: American League Most Valuable Player • 1954: American League Most Valuable Player • 1955: American League Most Valuable Player • 1999: Named to All-Century Team (C)
Johnny Bench 2158 7658 1091 2048 381 24 389 1376 891 1278 68 43 .267 Awards: • 1968: National League Rookie of the Year • 1968: National League Gold Glove at C • 1969: National League Gold Glove at C • 1970: National League Gold Glove at C • 1970: National League Most Valuable Player • 1971: National League Gold Glove at C • 1972: National League Gold Glove at C • 1972: National League Most Valuable Player • 1973: National League Gold Glove at C • 1974: National League Gold Glove at C • 1975: National League Gold Glove at C • 1976: National League Gold Glove at C • 1976: World Series Most Valuable Player • 1977: National League Gold Glove at C • 1999: Named to All-Century Team (C)
Surprised there's no support for Bill Dickey. While there's no single "best" catcher of all time, Dickey was good enough to deserve a mention. A ten-time .300 hitter, but more than that, he had a great arm and was respected for his ability to handle pitchers. Besides being considered the unofficial captain of the Yanks, after he retired he became a coach and helped make Berra the great catcher he was.
There aren't all that many HOF catchers so Dickey at least deserved a mention in this thread.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Pudge has had a high average most of his career. He leads teams to wins like Bench. He has power but not just a power hitter. He hits opposite field as good as anyone which is a sign of a great hitter. Most respected catcher in the game in regards to his arm. I am sure some stat head can figure out who has better numbers between Bench and Pudge but they are very similar to me so either could be 1 or 2. Pudge came up as a 19 year old phenom I believe and has lived up to incredible hype which is very hard to do.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
<< <i>Fellas, I think you are all forgetting about the first-ballot HOF currently playing: Pudge. >>
Not I. I have a ton of respect for Pudge. Although I do believe he was a steroids user. There's a mark of suspicion against all those Rangers from the mid 90's (Canseco, Pudge, Igor, Palmeiro, etc.) I don't remember which year it was, but Pudge showed up to spring training about 25 pounds lighter from the previous year - and let's just say he was ripped at the end of the previsou year. So you can make your own judgement. All that aside, he's still one of the best. And who's to say Piazza didn't juice too? Some of these things we'll probably never know.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Hands down-"JOSH GIBSON". He was the best hitting catcher of all time and no one is even close. He is completely in a league of his own. It is a written fact and was viewed by thousands that he hit a ball out of Yankee stadium. He was also noticed by major league scouts to have a rocket arm and be tremendous behind the plate. I believe Mickey Cochrane was the best in the majors at the time and managers would say this is true because "The colored fella could not play because of the league color barrier"------Truly the best of all time.
yogi (clutch hitter, leadership) bench (scary in every phase of the game) piazza (best pure hitter, hands down) pudge (assuming he closes out strong) dickey (top 3 among current HOFers)
all great, but tough to beat 3 MVPs and 2 runner-ups. you have to count the intangibles as well as the stats. nevertheless, you could argue all day and make a case for all these great players including gibson and cochrane.
Mark B.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
Its really hard to compare a guy like Josh Gibson because he played in a seperate league. It sucks that he wasn't given the same chances as everyone else but the evidence that he was better than a Bench is based mostly on second hand accounts and embellishments not facts.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
I forgot about Gabby Harnett and Ted Simmons. Pretty good catchers. I can't add Josh Gibson to the list because he never played in MLB (not his fault) and I've never seen any film of him playing. He last played in what the mid 1930's? Are there any scouts alive that saw him play and have it documented. Too bad there's not more footage of the Negro leagues. I'm not saying he wasn't great, but I would need facts before saying he was the best ever. I heard he hit 84 homers one year. That wasn't against the necessarily the best competition of the era. He didn't have to bat against Carl Hubbell, Bob Feller, Lefty Grove, Dizzy Dean, or Lefty Gomez on a weekly basis. They (Negro Leagues) played a longer schedule some years too and the statistical records are not official. I mean does anyone think that Satchel Paige would have won over 40 games a year playing in the bigs in his prime like he did in his league? Maybe 25 wins but not 40.
It's hard to not put Campy near the top three with his 3 MVP awards during the 1950's.
Pudge. That's it. The offensive and defensive stats have been listed. I would also say that the Tigers, as an organization, have had the best collection of catchers ever. Pudge, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Freehan, Lance Parrish (in his prime was there better?), Rudy York, Mickey Tettleton, Brad Ausmus (twice), Mike Heath, Matt Nokes. Can any other orgnization boast better catchers? Nope.
Josh Gibson: I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows how he would have done in the majors.
Mike Piazza: best hitting catcher ever, easily, but a lousy fielder and baserunner
Pudge Rodriguez: worst hitting catcher of this group, easily, but a great fielder and a good baserunner
Johnny Bench: About midway between Pudge and Piazza at the plate but Pudge's equal behind the plate
Yogi Berra: Bench's near-twin as a hitter, but he gets the nod in a close race; better than average catcher
Put Gibson aside because we'd only be guessing. Throw out Pudge because he clearly loses to Bench. Of the three remaining - Piazza, Bench, Berra - a solid argument could be made for any of the three, especially considering all the impossible to measure qualities that come with being a catcher. {For example, did you know that Johnny Bench threw out far fewer than an average number of runners and his caught stealing percentages were only average? It's true, but it's also true that after his rookie season the entire league was so afraid of him that only the Lou Brocks and Bobby Bonds of the league would even try to steal on him. Stats simply do not capture how amazing his arm was.}
I would rank them Bench, Piazza, Berra but the gap from Bench down to Berra is tiny compared to the gap from Berra down to whoever is 4th (nobody mentioned Mickey Cochrane, so to be difficult I'll say it's him). I think you could arrange those three in any order and nobody could prove you wrong.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
just wondering, how does Rodriguez CLEARLY lose out to Bench? everyone here basically says "because it's Bench!!" ain't buying it. and at a lifetime .304 hitter, how is Pudge the worst hitter????
Bench will always be a media ham.....guess that gives him the REAL edge.....
I'm not sure why the distinction matters, since throwing is half of fielding, but you're right - he was a very poor thrower.
<< <i>throwing out runners is 1/3 or 1/2 of what a catcher is worth >>
It's important, but not nearly that important. It's probably 1/3 to 1/2 of what his fielding is worth, but every non-pitcher's offense is worth more than his defense (or he finds himself quickly out of a job.)
<< <i>just wondering, how does Rodriguez CLEARLY lose out to Bench? >>
1. Pudge was harder to walk than a two legged dog. Bench got on base just as much as Pudge. 2. Pudge played most of his career in a prime hitter's park; Bench's prime years were spent in a tough hitter's park. Ditto for the eras they played in. In context, Bench, while producing slightly fewer runs than Pudge, was producing runs that represented many more games won than Pudge. 3. Bench's best seasons were better than Pudge's best seasons 4. Bench's average season was better than Pudge's average season 5. Pudge grounded into many more DPs than Bench (mostly because he refused to take a walk)
If there is anything meaningful that Pudge did better than Bench it is not obvious what that might be. And if you're younger than I am, I challenge you to tell me who was on the Reds pitching staff that won back-to-back World Series; Bench was as good a handler of pitchers as ever played the game as well as probably THE best fielder.
<< <i>and at a lifetime .304 hitter, how is Pudge the worst hitter???? >>
Example #892 of why batting average is an almost meaningless stat. The .241 hitting Gene Tenace was a lot more valuable with the bat than Pudge (although he was a truly awful catcher).
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
wow....those are some fiercely weak reasons..... true Rodriguez does swing a tad too much, but even with Bench acquiring twice as many walks, their OBP is exactly the same at .342.....Pudge made up for it by acquiring 300 more hits...blahblah...kind of a useless debate and goes more to opinion. i just don't think one is obviously better.
i also think most people are giving too much emphasis on offense....which doesn't really say anything about how you play your position....
<< <i>1. Pudge was harder to walk than a two legged dog. Bench got on base just as much as Pudge. 2. Pudge played most of his career in a prime hitter's park; Bench's prime years were spent in a tough hitter's park. Ditto for the eras they played in. In context, Bench, while producing slightly fewer runs than Pudge, was producing runs that represented many more games won than Pudge. 3. Bench's best seasons were better than Pudge's best seasons 4. Bench's average season was better than Pudge's average season 5. Pudge grounded into many more DPs than Bench (mostly because he refused to take a walk) >>
I know I will hate myself for trying, but I gots to know.
You say that the above are fiercely weak reasons, but then you only address the first of the 5 reasons I listed. If you would be so kind, please address #2 (that Pudge played in a time and in parks in which runs were much easier to come by than did Bench) and explain why that is a fiercely weak reason. Also, given that it is fiercely weak, can you explain why we are even discussing Pudge and Bench when Mickey Cochrane (a fine defensive catcher, too) was a career .320 hitter? I mean, the single only reason you have offered why Pudge is better than Bench is that he had a higher batting average; if that's the only argument that isn't fiercely weak, then Cochrane is the best of all time, right?
Enlighten me.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
It's extremely difficult to evaluate players from different eras. How does can we compare Gibson with Campy and Bench? With that said, I'd cast my vote for Johnny Bench.
In my opinion, cather is the most important position on the team. The Catcher has to be the field general, the one who directs the pulse of the game. No one was better at this than Johnny Bench. He knew what pitches to call and when to call them. He knew how to work with the Pitchers to keep them from getting frustrated. He knew how to set up the field defensively for each pitch, and would move players around accordingly. He directed the game from behind the plate with confidence and ease. He set the standard for Catchers in his day.
Cather is a defensive position, Meaning managers are willing to sacrifice offensive output for defensive prowess. Bench was a power hitter, he led the league in Hr's twice and Rbi three times. He has 10 postseason homeruns and 20 postseason rbi, and is a World series m.V.P. Bench was named an all-star for 13 straight seasons and has a .370 avg in all-star game's. He won ten straight Gold Glove Awards and set a NL record by catching at least 100 games in each of his first 13 seasons. He established career records for putouts and chances.
Although I am unsure whether everyone here will agree to disagree, I know that we can beat numbers to death, we can beat MVPs to death, we can beat quotes from coaches and players to death (kind of like politicians do with issues), et cetera et cetera.
The best hitting catcher of all time? That is a tough one. Consider just HRs? Consider just batting average? Consider just OBPS or any other iteration of win shares, etc? When factoring in the different pitching mound heights, the dead ball era, the alleged steroid era, the pre-integration era, well, that is just too difficult to do. But Bench, Cochrane, Pudge, Piazza, Gibson, Berra, and possibly others could win an argument in different categories based on what you favor.
The best defensive catcher of all time? Well, we at least can agree to knock out Piazza from that category. But we would likely have to add other catchers into the mix, such as Jim Sundberg. (Oh yeah. Based on defensive catchers, the Texas Rangers may have the best catchers of all time, with Sundberg and Pudge. In the 35 year history of the Rangers, they may have 18-20 gold gloves for that position.)
Thus I do not just automatically rule out players and jump to a conclusion about the best. Saying that without a doubt that Bench is the best, just does not make me change my mind. Thanks to all who have added stats. But I think the best posting so far, for me, was when someone first brought up Gibson. That led me to think about the different eras, and how maybe the best catcher is forgotten from the discussion because he was not allowed to play in the mainstream major leagues because of his being black. Or how maybe Pudge's offensive prowess is because of steroids or HGH. Or how Bench put up numbers because he had a great lineup around him. Or how Berra had a great lineup too.
Comments
<< <i>Boopotts...I thought Liberace was a tight end? >>
He was at one point in his life but he definitely became a wide receiver
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>Bo Diaz
R.i.p. >>
Where have I been for the past 17 years?? I had no idea he died, let alone that he was killed by a satellite dish:
<< <i>On November 23, 1990, Diaz was killed by a satellite dish that he was adjusting on the roof of his home in Caracas, Venezuela that fell on him. He was 37 years old. >>
"Poor broad. Back in ’78 I would have given my left leg to sleep with her but now I wouldn’t touch her with ol’ Fisky’s ding-a-ling, let alone my own. Did she get hit by a bus on the way here?"
- Sparky Anderson
oh wait, I thought you said baseball's greatest kisser...my bad
<< <i>Bench.
Ivan Rodriguez is second in my book.
Nick >>
Had I not made a bare handed attempt at catching a Pudge foul ball, it would have hit my wife in the face.
Bench second without a doubt.
Piazza second...glove deficiencies more than made up for it with his numbers.
Pudge third.
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA
Ivan Rodriguez 2023 7745 1159 2354 473 42 277 1119 437 1125 112 56 .304
• 1992: American League Gold Glove at C
• 1993: American League Gold Glove at C
• 1994: American League Gold Glove at C
• 1995: American League Gold Glove at C
• 1996: American League Gold Glove at C
• 1997: American League Gold Glove at C
• 1998: American League Gold Glove at C
• 1999: American League Most Valuable Player
• 1999: American League Gold Glove at C
• 2000: American League Gold Glove at C
• 2001: American League Gold Glove at C
• 2003: NLCS Most Valuable Player
• 2004: American League Silver Slugger
• 2004: American League Gold Glove at C
• 2006: American League Gold Glove at C
Yogi Berra 2120 7555 1175 2150 321 49 358 1430 704 414 30 26 .285
Awards:
• 1951: American League Most Valuable Player
• 1954: American League Most Valuable Player
• 1955: American League Most Valuable Player
• 1999: Named to All-Century Team (C)
Johnny Bench 2158 7658 1091 2048 381 24 389 1376 891 1278 68 43 .267
Awards:
• 1968: National League Rookie of the Year
• 1968: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1969: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1970: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1970: National League Most Valuable Player
• 1971: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1972: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1972: National League Most Valuable Player
• 1973: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1974: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1975: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1976: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1976: World Series Most Valuable Player
• 1977: National League Gold Glove at C
• 1999: Named to All-Century Team (C)
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Greg Maddux being one of the.
The best catcher period would be Johnny Bench.
tennesseebanker's sig line says it best:
"I don't want to embarrass any other catcher by comparing him with Johnny Bench." - Sparky Anderson
There aren't all that many HOF catchers so Dickey at least deserved a mention in this thread.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
By the way, let's not be fooled by the numbers that Pudge has produced in the steroids era.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>Fellas, I think you are all forgetting about the first-ballot HOF currently playing: Pudge. >>
Not I. I have a ton of respect for Pudge. Although I do believe he was a steroids user. There's a mark of suspicion against all those Rangers from the mid 90's (Canseco, Pudge, Igor, Palmeiro, etc.) I don't remember which year it was, but Pudge showed up to spring training about 25 pounds lighter from the previous year - and let's just say he was ripped at the end of the previsou year. So you can make your own judgement. All that aside, he's still one of the best. And who's to say Piazza didn't juice too? Some of these things we'll probably never know.
I would have to go with Berra and Bench all-around w/Piazza by far the best hitting catcher
bench (scary in every phase of the game)
piazza (best pure hitter, hands down)
pudge (assuming he closes out strong)
dickey (top 3 among current HOFers)
all great, but tough to beat 3 MVPs and 2 runner-ups. you have to count the intangibles as well as the stats. nevertheless, you could argue all day and make a case for all these great players including gibson and cochrane.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
Johnny Bench 2 44 16 43 4 21 67
2.
Yogi Berra 1 41 79 40 29 3 28 41
3.
Mickey Cochrane 4 72 65 30 1 54 39
4.
Roy Campanella 3 53 50 55 36 54
5.
Carlton Fisk 6 97 7 88
6.
Gabby Hartnett 9 64 52 13
7.
Bill Dickey 7 95 57 19 2 69
8.
Ivan Rodriguez 13 94
9.
Mike Piazza 5 79 87 56
10.
Gary Carter 8 5
11.
Bill Freehan 12 18
12.
Buck Ewing 17
13.
Wally Schang 20 10
14.
Ted Simmons 10 9
15.
Bob Boone 21
-----------------------------ignore the numbers, but here are some of the best..
Mickey Cochrane was a beast at the plate... 320 lifetime avg? wow.
Ted Simmons was a hell of a hitter too.
I heard he hit 84 homers one year. That wasn't against the necessarily the best competition of the era. He didn't have to bat against Carl Hubbell, Bob Feller, Lefty Grove, Dizzy Dean, or Lefty Gomez on a weekly basis. They (Negro Leagues) played a longer schedule some years too and the statistical records are not official.
I mean does anyone think that Satchel Paige would have won over 40 games a year playing in the bigs in his prime like he did in his league? Maybe 25 wins but not 40.
It's hard to not put Campy near the top three with his 3 MVP awards during the 1950's.
Josh Gibson: I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows how he would have done in the majors.
Mike Piazza: best hitting catcher ever, easily, but a lousy fielder and baserunner
Pudge Rodriguez: worst hitting catcher of this group, easily, but a great fielder and a good baserunner
Johnny Bench: About midway between Pudge and Piazza at the plate but Pudge's equal behind the plate
Yogi Berra: Bench's near-twin as a hitter, but he gets the nod in a close race; better than average catcher
Put Gibson aside because we'd only be guessing. Throw out Pudge because he clearly loses to Bench. Of the three remaining - Piazza, Bench, Berra - a solid argument could be made for any of the three, especially considering all the impossible to measure qualities that come with being a catcher. {For example, did you know that Johnny Bench threw out far fewer than an average number of runners and his caught stealing percentages were only average? It's true, but it's also true that after his rookie season the entire league was so afraid of him that only the Lou Brocks and Bobby Bonds of the league would even try to steal on him. Stats simply do not capture how amazing his arm was.}
I would rank them Bench, Piazza, Berra but the gap from Bench down to Berra is tiny compared to the gap from Berra down to whoever is 4th (nobody mentioned Mickey Cochrane, so to be difficult I'll say it's him). I think you could arrange those three in any order and nobody could prove you wrong.
Piazza was a lousy thrower, not fielder
He called a good game and he was agile behind the plate, just couldn't make the throw quick enough to 2nd
DP
throwing out runners is 1/3 or 1/2 of what a catcher is worth. piazza doesnt make my personal top 5.
Bench will always be a media ham.....guess that gives him the REAL edge.....
<< <i>Piazza was a lousy thrower, not fielder >>
I'm not sure why the distinction matters, since throwing is half of fielding, but you're right - he was a very poor thrower.
<< <i>throwing out runners is 1/3 or 1/2 of what a catcher is worth >>
It's important, but not nearly that important. It's probably 1/3 to 1/2 of what his fielding is worth, but every non-pitcher's offense is worth more than his defense (or he finds himself quickly out of a job.)
<< <i>just wondering, how does Rodriguez CLEARLY lose out to Bench? >>
1. Pudge was harder to walk than a two legged dog. Bench got on base just as much as Pudge.
2. Pudge played most of his career in a prime hitter's park; Bench's prime years were spent in a tough hitter's park. Ditto for the eras they played in. In context, Bench, while producing slightly fewer runs than Pudge, was producing runs that represented many more games won than Pudge.
3. Bench's best seasons were better than Pudge's best seasons
4. Bench's average season was better than Pudge's average season
5. Pudge grounded into many more DPs than Bench (mostly because he refused to take a walk)
If there is anything meaningful that Pudge did better than Bench it is not obvious what that might be. And if you're younger than I am, I challenge you to tell me who was on the Reds pitching staff that won back-to-back World Series; Bench was as good a handler of pitchers as ever played the game as well as probably THE best fielder.
<< <i>and at a lifetime .304 hitter, how is Pudge the worst hitter???? >>
Example #892 of why batting average is an almost meaningless stat. The .241 hitting Gene Tenace was a lot more valuable with the bat than Pudge (although he was a truly awful catcher).
i also think most people are giving too much emphasis on offense....which doesn't really say anything about how you play your position....
<< <i>1. Pudge was harder to walk than a two legged dog. Bench got on base just as much as Pudge.
2. Pudge played most of his career in a prime hitter's park; Bench's prime years were spent in a tough hitter's park. Ditto for the eras they played in. In context, Bench, while producing slightly fewer runs than Pudge, was producing runs that represented many more games won than Pudge.
3. Bench's best seasons were better than Pudge's best seasons
4. Bench's average season was better than Pudge's average season
5. Pudge grounded into many more DPs than Bench (mostly because he refused to take a walk)
>>
I know I will hate myself for trying, but I gots to know.
You say that the above are fiercely weak reasons, but then you only address the first of the 5 reasons I listed. If you would be so kind, please address #2 (that Pudge played in a time and in parks in which runs were much easier to come by than did Bench) and explain why that is a fiercely weak reason. Also, given that it is fiercely weak, can you explain why we are even discussing Pudge and Bench when Mickey Cochrane (a fine defensive catcher, too) was a career .320 hitter? I mean, the single only reason you have offered why Pudge is better than Bench is that he had a higher batting average; if that's the only argument that isn't fiercely weak, then Cochrane is the best of all time, right?
Enlighten me.
<< <i>There are a few pitchers out there who would say "Charlie O"Brien"
Greg Maddux being one of the. >>
And O'Brien did introduce the goalie mask to catchers.
Cather is a defensive position, Meaning managers are willing to sacrifice offensive output for defensive prowess. Bench was a power hitter, he led the league in Hr's twice and Rbi three times. He has 10 postseason homeruns and 20 postseason rbi, and is a World series m.V.P.
Bench was named an all-star for 13 straight seasons and has a .370 avg in all-star game's.
He won ten straight Gold Glove Awards and set a NL record by catching at least 100 games in each of his first 13 seasons. He established career records for putouts and chances.
My ebay listings
The best hitting catcher of all time? That is a tough one. Consider just HRs? Consider just batting average? Consider just OBPS or any other iteration of win shares, etc? When factoring in the different pitching mound heights, the dead ball era, the alleged steroid era, the pre-integration era, well, that is just too difficult to do. But Bench, Cochrane, Pudge, Piazza, Gibson, Berra, and possibly others could win an argument in different categories based on what you favor.
The best defensive catcher of all time? Well, we at least can agree to knock out Piazza from that category. But we would likely have to add other catchers into the mix, such as Jim Sundberg. (Oh yeah. Based on defensive catchers, the Texas Rangers may have the best catchers of all time, with Sundberg and Pudge. In the 35 year history of the Rangers, they may have 18-20 gold gloves for that position.)
Thus I do not just automatically rule out players and jump to a conclusion about the best. Saying that without a doubt that Bench is the best, just does not make me change my mind. Thanks to all who have added stats. But I think the best posting so far, for me, was when someone first brought up Gibson. That led me to think about the different eras, and how maybe the best catcher is forgotten from the discussion because he was not allowed to play in the mainstream major leagues because of his being black. Or how maybe Pudge's offensive prowess is because of steroids or HGH. Or how Bench put up numbers because he had a great lineup around him. Or how Berra had a great lineup too.
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How about a top 3?
Bench
Berra
Who else?
roy campanella
Yogi Berra
IMHO
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
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Heh heh. 100