1. Johnny Bench 2. Yogi Berra 3. Carlton Fisk 4. Bill Dickey 5. Gabby Hartnett 6. Roy Campanella 7. Mike Piazza 8. Mickey Cochrane 9. Gary Carter 10. Ivan Rodriguez
I never saw Bench play in his prime, but based on his numbers and the comments I hear about his defense, he is the best. The best I ever saw play was Pudge, the guy could hit and play great defense. From what I understand Bench is pretty close to his peer defensively, but had better numbers in a tougher hitting era.
PoppaJ has a pretty good top 10. I would change it around a bit, for example Pudge over Piazza, but you have the right players.
1. Fisk by a mile (24 years). In one memorable incident, pro-football and pro-baseball player Deion Sanders hit a pop fly, and refused to run to first base, suspecting that the ball would be easily caught. Fisk yelled at Sanders to run the ball out and told Sanders during his next at-bat, "If you don't play it [the game] right, I'm going to kick your ass right here."--Wikipedia
<< <i>1. Fisk by a mile (24 years). In one memorable incident, pro-football and pro-baseball player Deion Sanders hit a pop fly, and refused to run to first base, suspecting that the ball would be easily caught. Fisk yelled at Sanders to run the ball out and told Sanders during his next at-bat, "If you don't play it [the game] right, I'm going to kick your ass right here."--Wikipedia ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-not agreeing as him being the best, but that man had some balls. Loved the way Fisk kept calling out Yaz for dogging it in the early-mid 70s. Fisk was basically still a rookie and he's criticizing Yaz!! Fisk was a hard, dedicated player. Is it true that he quit for the good of the game? cause he felt he no longer played at the major league level? classy guy indeed.
-Bench will always be regarded as the best. Not trying to undermine his numbers, which are certainly HOF-worthy, but in all honesty, does anyone else agree that he was one of those athletes that transcended the sport, with all the stupid TV appearances and always being in the spotlight, not to mention being on the Reds in their dominant 70s? Sure helped Tony Perez, who's HOF status is questionable. I'd even say that similar circumstances helped Reggie's status as 'superhero' as he was basically the Jim Thome of his generation stat-wise. Just saying that i think the 'media factor' certainly magnifies a player.......
-Yogi is hard to deny- the man who caught 14 WS teams and several HOF pitchers. Again, the media, his coaching days and his cute little sayings magnify him to legend status
people are always gonna go with who they grew up watching- 50s: Berra, Campy 70s: Bench, Fisk, Munson 80s: Fisk, Boone, Simmons
i still say, in comparing everyone's total stats in being the most complete player, Ivan Rodriguez is best offensively and defensively. 13 GG's, .991 FP and 47% caught stealing record thus far is hard to beat. 2600 hits and .302 AVG thus far is hard to beat and he still has at least 2-3 more years to go. but, of course, i saw him play. all i know of the afforementioned, is what old games or highlight films i can scrounge. Still amazed by Bench's 1971 AllStar game blast in the Tiger Stadium bleachers, as well as all the 70s post-season games i have where he dominated, but that's it.
<< <i>1. Johnny Bench 2. Yogi Berra 3. Carlton Fisk 4. Bill Dickey 5. Gabby Hartnett 6. Roy Campanella 7. Mike Piazza 8. Mickey Cochrane 9. Gary Carter 10. Ivan Rodriguez >>
This is a pretty good top ten list. I don't agree with the order, but it's a solid list.
That's 10 great ones. I'm sure there's a few others who could be added to the list. >>
I'll use Rich's list as a starting point. The top three are right (I consider Campanella and Berra to be a total wash. Almost mirror images of each other in skills and importance to their two great teams. They're tied for second on my list.) I would put Rodriguez and Fisk at 4 and 5, Cochrane and Dickey at 6 and 7. I would put Ted Simmons (the most obvious, glaring omission among current non-HOF position players, at least ones not on the banned list) at 8, Carter 9 and Piazza 10th. He was a DH playing in the NL.
I'm sorry that a clutch player like Munson gets crowded off my list, but the numbers are a cruel mistress. And I'm truly sorry we can't make a real call about Josh Gibson.
It seems like no one is taking into account Championships which is what it is all about at the end of the day, and reflects a catchers ability to get the most out of their pitching staff.
Berra, Bench and Campanella hands down.
Pudge and Piazza are left sucking these guys tailpipes.
Please, just get off the Ivan Rodriguez ship. He is not nearly the best catcher in baseball history. I am not sure he is even better than Ted Simmons.
Dallas's point about the era of easy offense is the key to the comparison. Ivan Rodriguez batted in an era that is possibly the easiest era in the history of baseball to be a good hitter, and certainly one of the easiest for the best to seperat themselves from the average.
Johnny Bench played in a much tougher era to score and hit, and a much tougher era to seperate oneself from the average.
I dont' want to go over everything, but you can sum it up pretty easily on how well they stacked up against their peers. Ivan Rodriguez had a grand total of one top ten finish in OPS+ in his league. He finishes tenth. He had a grand total of ZERO top ten Batter Runs finishes.
His high average and HR may look sexy, but that is only because they were quite easy to attain in the era he played in.
Bench had OPS+ finishes of 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 9th. Bench had Batter RUn finishes of 2nd and 6th
If you rank all their seasons like this among their peers, you will see how Bench wins out easily, compared to the artificially high numbers of Rodriguez. No, not artificially high from steroids. Artificially high from expansion, dilluted talent, and population drop of available baseball players. Oh, and he did do steroids...but that is another story.
Defensively,
Bench threw out 43% Rodriguez threw out 47% Simmons threw out 34%
Keep in mind though that Bench played in the astroturf era, and his home ballpark was an astroturf field. WHat does that mean? Astroturf increased Stolen Base percentages.
Oh, Ted Simmons best rankings in OPS+ are 5,6,6,8,10. In adjusted Batter Runs...4,6,6,8.
Simmons ain't as far back defensively as people think...and he is ahead offensively.
Bench played on the same field/era as Rose, Morgan, etc..... artificial stats? maybe the ball springs off today's bats a bit better due to different wood or tighter baseballs...maybe. maybe a performance enhancing drug was legal then that isn't now or vice versa or whatever...it was a completely different game 10yrs ago, 20 yrs ago, 30 yrs ago etc.... several factors come into play that make any of us simply talk out of our rear ends.... pitchers a la Gaylord Perry and such got away with doctoring the ball, umpires were ridiculously lenient on check-swinging, jeez i could go on and on. but like i said, it all comes down to who you watched play. stats are sometimes superfluous.... you watch a player, you see how hard he plays, his attitude....
How is Gibson off of people's lists? Josh Gibson can easily be substantiated. He terrorized pitching everywhere he went. Every Negro Leaguer speaks of him in the highest praise. All of the white players whom he played against had similar views. Ask about Gibson in Puerto Rico or Mexico. Gibson beat up on all of the top flight Negro pitchers of his time.
It's a shame that we never got to see him play. Offensively, best hitting catcher ever. He might not be the best defensive catcher ever .. but his name will ring bells in baseball annals.
Are we going to doubt that Paige was one of the best pitchers ever ... who came into the Majors leagues at 42 and pitched until he was 46 in the majors and through his 50's on the AAA level?
i wish there were more known about the Negro leagues and their players as i do think some of the greatest ball players of all time will remain unsung, but what i wonder is how were the standards compared to MLB? they were probably playing under completely different circumstances (umpiring, fields, low prospect selection, etc) than the MLB.
<< <i>1. Johnny Bench 2. Yogi Berra 3. Carlton Fisk 4. Bill Dickey 5. Gabby Hartnett 6. Roy Campanella 7. Mike Piazza 8. Mickey Cochrane 9. Gary Carter 10. Ivan Rodriguez >>
seriously? Josh Gibson isn't in your top 10? wow.
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<< <i>i wish there were more known about the Negro leagues and their players as i do think some of the greatest ball players of all time will remain unsung, but what i wonder is how were the standards compared to MLB? they were probably playing under completely different circumstances (umpiring, fields, low prospect selection, etc) than the MLB. >>
come visit the Negro League Baseball Museum here in Kansas City, I think that you'll think differently. there is a lot known... just not mainstream news...
White Whales: 1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith 2006 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractor Chris Carpenter
Comments
CDsNuts, 1/9/15
I think he was better than Berra anyway .
<< <i>Don't leave out Campanella , not the best of the best but I am sure he deserves a mention at least .
I think he was better than Berra anyway . >>
Berra and Campy were the respective MVP's of their leagues in 1955.
Looking for Charlie (Charley) Maxwell cards.
2. Yogi Berra
3. Carlton Fisk
4. Bill Dickey
5. Gabby Hartnett
6. Roy Campanella
7. Mike Piazza
8. Mickey Cochrane
9. Gary Carter
10. Ivan Rodriguez
(no regional bias for me
PoppaJ has a pretty good top 10. I would change it around a bit, for example Pudge over Piazza, but you have the right players.
/s/ JackWESQ
In one memorable incident, pro-football and pro-baseball player Deion Sanders hit a pop fly, and refused to run to first base, suspecting that the ball would be easily caught. Fisk yelled at Sanders to run the ball out and told Sanders during his next at-bat, "If you don't play it [the game] right, I'm going to kick your ass right here."--Wikipedia
2 (tie). Bench, Berra
4. (tie) Rodriguez, Cochrane, Campanella
"Black Mike"
<< <i>1. Fisk by a mile (24 years).
In one memorable incident, pro-football and pro-baseball player Deion Sanders hit a pop fly, and refused to run to first base, suspecting that the ball would be easily caught. Fisk yelled at Sanders to run the ball out and told Sanders during his next at-bat, "If you don't play it [the game] right, I'm going to kick your ass right here."--Wikipedia
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-not agreeing as him being the best, but that man had some balls. Loved the way Fisk kept calling out Yaz for dogging it in the early-mid 70s. Fisk was basically still a rookie and he's criticizing Yaz!! Fisk was a hard, dedicated player. Is it true that he quit for the good of the game? cause he felt he no longer played at the major league level? classy guy indeed.
-Bench will always be regarded as the best. Not trying to undermine his numbers, which are certainly HOF-worthy, but in all honesty, does anyone else agree that he was one of those athletes that transcended the sport, with all the stupid TV appearances and always being in the spotlight, not to mention being on the Reds in their dominant 70s? Sure helped Tony Perez, who's HOF status is questionable. I'd even say that similar circumstances helped Reggie's status as 'superhero' as he was basically the Jim Thome of his generation stat-wise. Just saying that i think the 'media factor' certainly magnifies a player.......
-Yogi is hard to deny- the man who caught 14 WS teams and several HOF pitchers. Again, the media, his coaching days and his cute little sayings magnify him to legend status
people are always gonna go with who they grew up watching- 50s: Berra, Campy 70s: Bench, Fisk, Munson 80s: Fisk, Boone, Simmons
i still say, in comparing everyone's total stats in being the most complete player, Ivan Rodriguez is best offensively and defensively. 13 GG's, .991 FP and 47% caught stealing record thus far is hard to beat. 2600 hits and .302 AVG thus far is hard to beat and he still has at least 2-3 more years to go. but, of course, i saw him play. all i know of the afforementioned, is what old games or highlight films i can scrounge. Still amazed by Bench's 1971 AllStar game blast in the Tiger Stadium bleachers, as well as all the 70s post-season games i have where he dominated, but that's it.
just my little opinion
<< <i>1. Johnny Bench
2. Yogi Berra
3. Carlton Fisk
4. Bill Dickey
5. Gabby Hartnett
6. Roy Campanella
7. Mike Piazza
8. Mickey Cochrane
9. Gary Carter
10. Ivan Rodriguez >>
This is a pretty good top ten list. I don't agree with the order, but it's a solid list.
<< <i>Bench
Berra
Campanella
Cochrane
Dickey
Rodriguez
Fisk
Munson
Carter
Piazza
That's 10 great ones. I'm sure there's a few others who could be added to the list. >>
I'll use Rich's list as a starting point. The top three are right (I consider Campanella and Berra to be a total wash. Almost mirror images of each other in skills and importance to their two great teams. They're tied for second on my list.) I would put Rodriguez and Fisk at 4 and 5, Cochrane and Dickey at 6 and 7. I would put Ted Simmons (the most obvious, glaring omission among current non-HOF position players, at least ones not on the banned list) at 8, Carter 9 and Piazza 10th. He was a DH playing in the NL.
I'm sorry that a clutch player like Munson gets crowded off my list, but the numbers are a cruel mistress. And I'm truly sorry we can't make a real call about Josh Gibson.
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This still holds true today.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Berra, Bench and Campanella hands down.
Pudge and Piazza are left sucking these guys tailpipes.
<< <i>Mickey Cochrane, Gary Carter, Bill Dickey, Campanella, Ted Simmons, Munson, Pudge, Pudge Jr. Piazza, Berra, but no one is better than Bench. >>
Thank you for including Simmons. One of the most under-rated catchers out there.
Dallas's point about the era of easy offense is the key to the comparison. Ivan Rodriguez batted in an era that is possibly the easiest era in the history of baseball to be a good hitter, and certainly one of the easiest for the best to seperat themselves from the average.
Johnny Bench played in a much tougher era to score and hit, and a much tougher era to seperate oneself from the average.
I dont' want to go over everything, but you can sum it up pretty easily on how well they stacked up against their peers. Ivan Rodriguez had a grand total of one top ten finish in OPS+ in his league. He finishes tenth. He had a grand total of ZERO top ten Batter Runs finishes.
His high average and HR may look sexy, but that is only because they were quite easy to attain in the era he played in.
Bench had OPS+ finishes of 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 9th.
Bench had Batter RUn finishes of 2nd and 6th
If you rank all their seasons like this among their peers, you will see how Bench wins out easily, compared to the artificially high numbers of Rodriguez. No, not artificially high from steroids. Artificially high from expansion, dilluted talent, and population drop of available baseball players. Oh, and he did do steroids...but that is another story.
Defensively,
Bench threw out 43%
Rodriguez threw out 47%
Simmons threw out 34%
Keep in mind though that Bench played in the astroturf era, and his home ballpark was an astroturf field. WHat does that mean? Astroturf increased Stolen Base percentages.
Oh, Ted Simmons best rankings in OPS+ are 5,6,6,8,10. In adjusted Batter Runs...4,6,6,8.
Simmons ain't as far back defensively as people think...and he is ahead offensively.
Bill James ranks Berra first, then Bench, then Campy third.
For what it's worth.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
It's a shame that we never got to see him play. Offensively, best hitting catcher ever. He might not be the best defensive catcher ever .. but his name will ring bells in baseball annals.
Are we going to doubt that Paige was one of the best pitchers ever ... who came into the Majors leagues at 42 and pitched until he was 46 in the majors and through his 50's on the AAA level?
<< <i>1. Johnny Bench
2. Yogi Berra
3. Carlton Fisk
4. Bill Dickey
5. Gabby Hartnett
6. Roy Campanella
7. Mike Piazza
8. Mickey Cochrane
9. Gary Carter
10. Ivan Rodriguez >>
seriously? Josh Gibson isn't in your top 10? wow.
1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith
2006 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractor Chris Carpenter
<< <i>i wish there were more known about the Negro leagues and their players as i do think some of the greatest ball players of all time will remain unsung, but what i wonder is how were the standards compared to MLB? they were probably playing under completely different circumstances (umpiring, fields, low prospect selection, etc) than the MLB. >>
come visit the Negro League Baseball Museum here in Kansas City, I think that you'll think differently. there is a lot known... just not mainstream news...
1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith
2006 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractor Chris Carpenter