I found out the going rate for off-duty police officers at coin shows. Is this a good price to pay

Longacre · February 25, 2007 11:21PM

Although I think it is tragic that that coin dealer got robbed in front of his hotel after the FUN show, I cannot stop thinking that it could have possibly been prevented with a little advanced planning. I was speaking with a police officer over the weekend, and I explained to him the FUN situation and asked whether off-duty police offers could be hired to provide protection in transit for persons carrying $4 million in a briefcase. He said absolutely, and here are the standard rates for his department:

The officer has to be hired for a minimum of 5 ½ hours of duty at time and a half pay. It does not matter if the officer works for 5 minutes or 5 ½ hours, he still needs to get paid the full amount. I am not sure if this is a Police Union thing, but it sounds like it.

Although I have no idea how much a cop makes per year (I didn’t ask), it might be safe to assume that a first year officer (who is most likely to take these sorts of gigs) probably makes around $75,000 per year. Therefore, for a 2080 hour year, that comes out to $36/hr. At time and a half, that is $54/hr. So in total, providing a real police escort (not one of those “rent an overweight bouncer” type of places) will cost $298. To me, incurring that cost seems to be worth it, even if you have to hire the cop a few times during the course of the show week. But I am not a rare coin dealer trying to make ends meet, so I cannot say for sure. What does everyone think?

Barndog · February 25, 2007 11:24PM

I think first year officers don't make $75,000 per year. The NYPD promotes that after 5 1/2 years of service, a police officer should be able to earn $75,000 per year.

All that aside, if you carry millions in coins or other valuables in the midst of any potential danger (urban America), you had better get the best security you can afford.

IGWT · February 25, 2007 11:27PM

The pay scale for police officers in Orlando, FL starts at $36,200 and tops out at $58,014. So, the cost would likely be about half of your estimate.

Scioto · February 25, 2007 11:29PM

Cutting that $75,000 in half comes closer to what an Officer makes in the first year.

Also, most of the Special Duty/OT goes to veterans not rookies.

RYK · February 25, 2007 11:29PM

I am not sure if your calculations are correct, but I did speak to a coin dealer who has used off-duty police to transport from the airport to the coin show and back in the past. He indicated to me that the cost was around $300 per trip, so you arrived at the right answer.

291fifth · February 25, 2007 11:37PM

Your pay estimate for police officers is way too high.

CoinHusker · February 25, 2007 11:37PM

That's about what our club pays for security for our little 2 horse annual show. Of course, this year the membership decided to forego the cost to the club by asking for volunteers to spend the night in the building themselves with various types of arms. Thankfully, they all survived the night.

ColonialCoinUnion · February 25, 2007 11:38PM

Are you asking if $300 is a good price to pay in order to avoid a $4,000,000 loss?

I'm going to have to draw some charts and graphs here and get back to you with my answer.

Barndog · February 25, 2007 11:41PM

<< Are you asking if $300 is a good price to pay in order to avoid a $4,000,000 loss?

I'm going to have to draw some charts and graphs here and get back to you with my answer. >>

make sure you put in a bar graph for the value of one's life. Powerpoint, please.

Longacre · February 25, 2007 11:45PM

<< Are you asking if $300 is a good price to pay in order to avoid a $4,000,000 loss?

I'm going to have to draw some charts and graphs here and get back to you with my answer. >>

I am sure you meant Powerpoint. You haven't been out of the corporate world that long, have you?

BRdude · February 25, 2007 11:48PM

I agree that the estimate for police pay is WAY high, but never the less, double what you figured would have been a deal that night. Of course I live in small town Oklahoma (GO SOONERS

) and I bet our Chief of police doesn't make what first year rookies make in large cities. Whatever the pay, it isn't enough for sure. Cops and Teachers are probably the most underpaid professions in the country. Of course, the good ones are worth twice or thrice what they make and the bad ones aren't worth hoot

alfalfa · February 25, 2007 11:50PM

Depending on what part of the country you're talking about, those figures are about right. Here in the SF Bay Area, first year officers do make about 70k.

RJ

MORGANHUNTER2 · February 26, 2007 12:14AM

not being a cop or a coin dealer with 4 mil in a brief case- I would think that having an armed officer of the area you are doing biz at is and should be considered SMART. A local cop has a jurisdictional duty- and can make an arrest if need be- or shoot the bastige for tryin to rip off the dealer- who knows you could actually enroll a new collector.

the incident that took place at the FUN show, to me, sounded like a set up, I could be wrong- but maybe bizness had been bad lately and an insurance claim of over 4 mil can clear out a few bad debts- this is just my opinion- not that it really matters.

If you carry that much around on you and do not have good security- then take your chances with your own self- get a gun...

tradedollarnut · February 26, 2007 12:14AM

<< Are you asking if $300 is a good price to pay in order to avoid a $4,000,000 loss?

I'm going to have to draw some charts and graphs here and get back to you with my answer. >>

Although I know this is tongue in cheek a bit, IMO it's not correct enough to let go as is. The real question is whether or not $300 [plus the time & hassle of arranging the protection] time and time again is worth the impact to one's insurance rates after a $4,000,000 loss times the probability of a loss ...

The answer depends on the change in the odds of being ripped off - and how much that impacts one's business and mental health.

tradedollarnut · February 26, 2007 12:15AM

<< the incident that took place at the FUN show, to me, sounded like a set up, I could be wrong- but maybe bizness had been bad lately and an insurance claim of over 4 mil can clear out a few bad debts- this is just my opinion- not that it really matters. >>

You are really really foolish to make such a statement on a public chatroom.

MrEureka · February 26, 2007 12:16AM

It would be easier, and possibly safer and cheaper to use Positive Protection. They do security for many of the big shows, and offer private security escorts for an additional fee.

Bear · February 26, 2007 12:17AM

An off duty police officer is the best insurance one

can have, if moving expensive coins around to and from

a show. Several million dollars in stock would certainly be worth

two officers , who are locked and loaded. In my case however, a bag

of donuts,might not be worth the effort.

billboat · February 26, 2007 12:18AM

<< Also, most of the Special Duty/OT goes to veterans not rookies. >>

This is definitely true--and it is the veteran officers you want to have providing this service.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 26, 2007 12:18AM

<< An off duty police officer is the best insurance one
can have if moving expensive coins around to and from
a show. Several million dollars in stock would certainly be worth
two officers ,who are locked and loaded. In my case however, a bag
of donuts,might not be worth the effort.

>>

tradedollarnut · February 26, 2007 12:21AM

IMO, consistently using an armed escort merely calls attention to you and increases the odds of you being targeted. In particular, it increases the odds of injurous force being used against you in order to separate you from your coins.

cohocorp · February 26, 2007 12:25AM

you get what you pay for right? i think its a good idea if you carry an inventory with high enough value.

StrikeOutXXX · February 26, 2007 12:28AM

I can't speak for all the states, but in New York, troopers make about $49k during the Academy, $53k 1st year after academy, and $56k after the 1st year.

That is just base salary. If you factor in overtime, and off-duty jobs like the security job you are talking about, most of my friends who are Troopers are at 100k easy. If you were hiring just about any Trooper with 5+ years, 70k is an accurate number to base your formula on.

Our local Sheriff's, and even the City/Village police are real close to that as well.

I was a cop (In the military though), and the Air Force would rent us out to various things like this - too bad we didn't get time and a half, the Base got money to use for various programs, but not us

WinPitcher · February 26, 2007 12:34AM

of course it depends on where you are. In NY I would say that 100.00 -150.00 per hour would be the going rate. when i worked for the Scarsdale Police dept back in the 70's we got 25.00 an hr for off duty security.

Other areas could charge more or less.

Steve

TwoSides2aCoin · February 26, 2007 12:37AM

Do not call attention to yourself with a rented cop. Call a couple biker friends. You don't have any ? Contact most lawyers. They ride every weekend

Cladiator · February 26, 2007 12:51AM

Employ these guys and you'll not have to worry. You could walk around downtown with St. Gaudens taped to your naked body and not a soul would bother you. Of course, it's going to cost you more than $300.

No One Will Mess With These Guys, period.

notwilight · February 26, 2007 1:02AM

<< IMO, consistently using an armed escort merely calls attention to you and increases the odds of you being targeted. In particular, it increases the odds of injurous force being used against you in order to separate you from your coins. >>

TDN makes a good point here. If you hire an armed guard, then everybody knows for sure you have lots of expensive stuff there and soon as the cops are gone, or even perhaps at a later date, you are marked. Assuming I didn't want to provide my own armed protection, I would prefer a plainclothes guard. That would generally be enough of a deterrent to prevent the attack and if you hired the right guy, in the event of an attack we would take a couple of bad guys off the street. Most people wouldn't have any idea who the escort was. Bad guys would suspect, but wouldn't know. --Jerry

fishcooker · February 26, 2007 1:03AM

The daily bank interest on $4 million is over $550. If you can afford to lose $500/day in interest, you can prolly afford $500/day in security.

Bear · February 26, 2007 1:23AM

Well, If I need a police officer......could I have a cute one?

Cladiator · February 26, 2007 1:31AM

<< Well, If I need a police officer......could I have a cute one? >>

Yeah but it'll cost you $100 per hour more

jbsteven · February 26, 2007 1:49AM

Brinks seems to be more cost effective and the coins are secure from the bourse to your office, not just until you get on the plane.

Brinks users could quote prices but I believe 5-6 double row boxes would cost roughly $400 to ship.

CarlWohlforth · February 26, 2007 1:51AM

Retired officers might like some part time work.

The show could hire an extra person to escort any dealer who asked to their car. That person could be instructed to watch while the dealer drove away to see if they could identify any car that might be following. If I was walking my 4 Million $ case to my car I would certainly take advantage of an escort if one were available.

MrEureka · February 26, 2007 2:04AM

Brinks seems to be more cost effective and the coins are secure from the bourse to your office

How secure is Brinks? Are the coins escorted by armed guards door to door? The whole 3000 miles from Long Beach to New York?

BlindedByEgo · February 26, 2007 2:05AM

PGA security is done by a company that hires mostly retired FBI agents. My friend does it, and enjoys his retirement walking around the golf courses.

If it's good enough for the PGA, it should be good enough for the coin biz. Nobody %#$#% with these guys.

clackamas · February 26, 2007 2:07AM

Why not some ex-us military? A couple of SF guys with knives.

tradedollarnut · February 26, 2007 2:10AM

<< Brinks seems to be more cost effective and the coins are secure from the bourse to your office

How secure is Brinks? Are the coins escorted by armed guards door to door? The whole 3000 miles from Long Beach to New York? >>

The last time I shipped a coin by Brinks, they couldn't find them for two weeks! Never again.

jbsteven · February 26, 2007 2:31AM

<< Brinks seems to be more cost effective and the coins are secure from the bourse to your office

How secure is Brinks? Are the coins escorted by armed guards door to door? The whole 3000 miles from Long Beach to New York? >>

as far as I know and the coins are fully insured (but you already knew this).

What happens when the off duty police officer escort gets robbed? any coverage then?

Cladiator · February 26, 2007 2:34AM

<< What happens when the off duty police officer escort gets robbed? >>

The robber gets shot.

MrEureka · February 26, 2007 2:36AM

as far as I know and the coins are fully insured (but you already knew this).

What happens when the off duty police officer escort gets robbed? any coverage then?

Most dealers use private insurance, which also covers Brinks shipments. If you needed to buy insurance through Brinks, it would get extremely expensive.

Doogy · February 26, 2007 2:37AM

For larger cities, a new police officer makes between 33-44k a year. for smaller cities, somewhat less. Here in Phoenix (5th largest city in US), the starting salary is right at 40k

MrEureka · February 26, 2007 2:38AM

My point, BTW, is that Brinks does not always maintain control of shipments. Sometimes, they farm the transport out to other firms. I'm told one of those firms is Fedex, although I cannot confirm it. But that does make me wonder how safe it is.

jbsteven · February 26, 2007 2:46AM

<< My point, BTW, is that Brinks does not always maintain control of shipments. Sometimes, they farm the transport out to other firms. I'm told one of those firms is Fedex, although I cannot confirm it. But that does make me wonder how safe it is. >>

I have yet to hear of ANYONE having a Brinks shipment stolen.

MrEureka · February 26, 2007 2:51AM

I have yet to hear of ANYONE having a Brinks shipment stolen.

Then it must be safe.

IGWT · February 26, 2007 3:04AM

Wasn't the robbery of Brinks at Heathrow for about $50MM in gold in the early 80s? There have been other heists, as well; but, given the value of what Brinks transports, I'd agree that the thefts are few and far between.

ARCO · February 26, 2007 3:14AM

The robbery was well thought out and staged. Even if an officer for hire had been present, the element of surprise existed with the thieves and the officer might have just been another body with hands in the air.

Tyler

jbsteven · February 26, 2007 3:32AM

<< I have yet to hear of ANYONE having a Brinks shipment stolen.

Then it must be safe. >>

good to hear you agree.

tradedollarnut · February 26, 2007 3:37AM

<< 

<< I have yet to hear of ANYONE having a Brinks shipment stolen.

Then it must be safe. >>

good to hear you agree. >>

Good thing they finally found my coins - after the insurance company hired someone to get on them - after telling me in so many words that they had no clue where they were.

jbsteven · February 26, 2007 3:39AM

<< 

<< 

<< I have yet to hear of ANYONE having a Brinks shipment stolen.

Then it must be safe. >>

good to hear you agree. >>

Good thing they finally found my coins - after the insurance company hired someone to get on them - after telling me in so many words that they had no clue where they were. >>

good to hear they weren't stolen though.

tradedollarnut · February 26, 2007 4:48AM

<< The robbery was well thought out and staged. Even if an officer for hire had been present, the element of surprise existed with the thieves and the officer might have just been another body with hands in the air.

Tyler >>

I think this is exactly true. These people have few restraints against harming anyone. An armed bodyguard just raises the level of violence that it takes in order to take the coins away.

Cladiator · February 26, 2007 4:51AM

<< 

<< The robbery was well thought out and staged. Even if an officer for hire had been present, the element of surprise existed with the thieves and the officer might have just been another body with hands in the air.

Tyler >>

I think this is exactly true. These people have few restraints against harming anyone. An armed bodyguard just raises the level of violence that it takes in order to take the coins away. >>

Criminals look for the easiest target. If they see a guard with a shotgun protecting your coins 99 times out of 100 they're going to hit the next guy and not you.

VicDaewoo · February 26, 2007 4:59AM

anyone carrying 4 mil better have more than one hired gun backing him up

BigBuffaloGuy · February 26, 2007 5:24AM

Some convention centers only allow their security officers to be hired and present (usually it is off-duty police from whatever county the convention is held). Hotels are different, and you can usually hire whomever you want. For our auctions and shows, we usually hire off-duty police from whatever precinct has jurisdiction where the event is being held. As for the cost, we just paid $25/hr for a plain clothed officer hidden fireare, and $35/hr for an officer in uniform w/ gun in plain sight.

John-

I found out the going rate for off-duty police officers at coin shows. Is this a good price to pay

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