Guess the Grade and Problem with this 1858 $20 Puttied ??
BloodMan
Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently purchased an NGC graded 1858 $20. This date is not ultra rare, but certainly not common. When I received the coin, I immediately noticed something unusual.
Can you guess what the problem is with this coin? Also, feel free to guess the grade.
Assessing this problem from images is very difficult because with most lighting conditions the problem is not detectable. To highlight the problem with this coin, I captured images of the coin using several lighting conditions.
1) Standard lighting setup
2) Sunlight only
3) Macro lens with a ring light attachment
I will post the grade (image of the holder) and describe the problem this evening.
Can you guess what the problem is with this coin? Also, feel free to guess the grade.
Assessing this problem from images is very difficult because with most lighting conditions the problem is not detectable. To highlight the problem with this coin, I captured images of the coin using several lighting conditions.
1) Standard lighting setup
2) Sunlight only
3) Macro lens with a ring light attachment
I will post the grade (image of the holder) and describe the problem this evening.
0
Comments
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I also notice that the left obverse and reverse rims appear lighter colored in your 3rd set of photos. Is ther any associated rim filing or other damage exhibited there?
The surface texture of the coin just doesn't appear to look right.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>I am going to guess tooling. The hair seems too sharp for the grade. >>
No. All double eagles from 1858 to 1858 have this characteristic (sharp, well defined hair detail) in addition to Liberty on the coronet having the "LIB" puched over "LLB". After 1858, the hair details were considerably softened until 1877.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'd need to see the coin in hand so to speak to say more.
Although I have very few NGC coins because (rightly or wrongly) I find that PCGS has grading standards that usually don't let me down, I sincerely doubt that NGC would slab a counterfeit coin or one with filed rims or jewelery tooling.
I don't think, however, that anybody can expect an EF45 to be very much better that the assigned grade.
One can hope for AU50 but an EF45/AU50 coin is a "mildly circualted" coin. A joy to own regardless when it is rare or is the fruit of a lot of huntling.
Collecting since the 1980's
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There is also a small dimple on Miss Liberty's chin.
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<< <i>Filed rim. >>
Where do you see that?
Reengraved hair?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
XF45 in NGC slab IMHO
as to the problem???
nothing jumps out at me other than the "dimple" on the chin. That is a really odd shaped "ding" or bag mark. No reeded edge made that.....looks like a mark made by a tool. The shape is too uniform to be a hit, ding or bagmark, again IMHO.
1858 Phily is a scarce date....
Can't wait to learn of the problem you are observing!
RAH
The coin has not been cleaned. Hairlines would be obvious when the coin is imaged with harsh lighting, such as sunlight. There is no discernible rim damage/filing—anything unusual is from shadows created by the coin being recessed in the holder. In the third set of images, the “lightness” is caused by reflections from the ring light.
The high points of the coin display classic signs of puttying. While “putty” can mean a variety of foreign substances, this type and appearance of putty is common with gold coins. To detect puttying, it usually requires that the coin be viewed in person and rotated slowly under a bright light.
I tried my best to capture the appearance of the putty with a still shot. In the first two lighting conditions, the high points appear to be slightly smoother than one might expect, but this is not really unusual for this type of coin in circulated grades. However, in the ring light images, there is a blue tinge visible on the high points. The blue discoloration is not seen on other parts of the coin. On the obverse, it can be seen on the cheek, eyebrow, hair below coronet and around the ear and bun. On the reverse, it is on the eagle’s neck and wings. At the time when the putty was applied, it was probably undetectable to the graders and over time, the substance changed color and became more obvious. However, the lower than expected grade makes me wonder whether the coin was “net” graded.
That would be consistent with ex-jewelry from a bezel as well, but it wouldn't be "blue". That's a large area to putty. Good thread. Please post a follow-up when NGC re-examines the coin.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Might I suggest that you consider a more descriptive renaming of the title of this thread to include the word Puttied so that it will be more easily accessible for future reference via contextual searches.
Thanks!!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Are you going to send this to NGC to review?
I would LOVE to know the outcome.
Seems odd to putty an XF $20...even of this year. Of the $20 I have seen puttied...it was low grade MS or high AU trying for a bump in grades. If I had wanted to alter this $20, I would have worked on some of the more serious hits.
Please do not think I am doubting your observations, especially since you have coin in hand. But for my sake.....since I do collect this series, I would LOVE to know NGC's response. Please post if you do.
Thanks again for a great thread.
Thanks for your comments.
I don’t think that I will submit it to NGC for review. With an XF45 coin, I would not have much to gain. Even in its present condition, it is nicer than my other 1858.
Why would someone putty an XF $20? -- The Trends value difference between an XF45 and AU55 is about $1800. Someone may have thought that smoothing the hits on the high points, particularly the cheek, may help?
I may get a few more opinions, perhaps in Baltimore next month. RYK, Ziggy, Messy and TWQG did mention puttying as a possibility.
<< <i>
I may get a few more opinions, perhaps in Baltimore next month. RYK, Ziggy, Messy and TWQG did mention puttying as a possibility. >>
BloodMan....please post any additional opinion you gather at Baltimore...I would love to read them...I am very interested in this topic.
Richard