If it has always been buy the coin and not the slab...

bidask · February 23, 2007 7:15AM

Why do we as collectors and dealers continue to slab raw coins, crackout for the hope for an upgrade, cross for the perception of a better TPG holder, resubmit for an upgrade, and fret about the state of the coin market because of slabs?

LALASD4 · February 23, 2007 7:17AM

Some people collect the slab and not the coin.

JRocco · February 23, 2007 7:19AM

<< Why do we as collectors and dealers continue to slab raw coins, crackout for the hope for an upgrade, cross for the perception of a better TPG holder, resubmit for an upgrade, and fret about the state of the coin market because of slabs? >>

Need to be careful throwing around that word "we"
I am not included in the population you describe and I have been and AM a collector for close to 40 years now.

BobaFett72 · February 23, 2007 7:19AM

some folks are gluttons for punishment

bidask · February 23, 2007 7:25AM

When you go to buy or sell a raw coin, do you 'discount' in your mind the price you are willing to pay or sell the coin because it is not slabbed?

Because if you do then that behavior also relates to my original question.

combatmailman · February 23, 2007 7:33AM

I purchase the coin, but slab it for conservation.

DHeath · February 23, 2007 7:34AM

The internet. Selling is best served online by a reputable TPG.

BECOKA · February 23, 2007 7:36AM

It's all about the registry and then the protection of the coin.

Rarity · February 23, 2007 8:05AM

<< Why do we as collectors and dealers continue to slab raw coins, crackout for the hope for an upgrade, cross for the perception of a better TPG holder, resubmit for an upgrade, and fret about the state of the coin market because of slabs? >>

Slab raw coins to preserve them

Crackout and resubmit for an upgrade because of greed

ziggy29 · February 23, 2007 8:11AM

<< Why do we as collectors and dealers continue to slab raw coins, crackout for the hope for an upgrade, cross for the perception of a better TPG holder, resubmit for an upgrade, and fret about the state of the coin market because of slabs? >>

Actually, some people recognize that buying the nicest coins for the grade provide profit opportunities. Even some of those who personally choose the best coins rather than the best slabs may decide that selling plastic is a good idea.

As such, it's more like "buy the coin, sell the holder."

Still, this is one of those things that make me think slabbing is causing more problems than it resolved. I just think it has become too dominant in the hobby. It has its place, IMO, but I just feel like way too much emphasis is put on "the right plastic" by too many people. The slabbers are just too powerful in terms of dictating standards and making markets. Slabbing certainly has its place, but more and more it seems like people involved in the hobby think every metal disk should have plastic around it.

ARCO · February 23, 2007 8:14AM

There are lots of good reasons to holder coins. The holders offer protection. The holders offer an unbiased third party opinion on the coin's grade and authenticity, and they now offer a fun and competitive method to share one's collection and to compare it against others.

I like TPG's because they offer one layer of protection against fraud (buyer should still know how to grade for themselves) concerning overgrading, and a layer of protection against altered or counterfeit coins. The protection isn't 100% but it is much better than just buying raw and hoping for the best. Lastly, I like the TPGs because they offer a potential buyer of one's coins the same protections when they go to sell the coins down the road.

The TPG's have some flaws inherant in the system, but they far outweigh the risks compared to when everything was bought and sold raw, IMHO.

Tyler

BECOKA · February 23, 2007 8:26AM

<< more and more it seems like people involved in the hobby think every metal disk should have plastic around it. >>

This actually makes sense. I am the type of person that like everything in the same type of holder. I do not like all of the various sizes of packaging one ends up with from the mint or different size tubes, 2x2's, binders etc....

I like being able to label my PCGS boxes and stack them nicely. So yes my cheap $2 coins end up in an $8 holder but it is well worth it and your statement holds water because of people like me.

nankraut · February 23, 2007 8:28AM

<< 

<< Why do we as collectors and dealers continue to slab raw coins, crackout for the hope for an upgrade, cross for the perception of a better TPG holder, resubmit for an upgrade, and fret about the state of the coin market because of slabs? >>

Slab raw coins to preserve them

Crackout and resubmit for an upgrade because of greed >>

Right on......

MisterBungle · February 23, 2007 8:30AM

It all just feeds the economy.

...and the economy stays hungry!!

~

JRocco · February 23, 2007 8:35AM

<< There are lots of good reasons to holder coins. The holders offer protection. The holders offer an unbiased third party opinion on the coin's grade and authenticity, and they now offer a fun and competitive method to share one's collection and to compare it against others.

I like TPG's because they offer one layer of protection against fraud (buyer should still know how to grade for themselves) concerning overgrading, and a layer of protection against altered or counterfeit coins. The protection isn't 100% but it is much better than just buying raw and hoping for the best. Lastly, I like the TPGs because they offer a potential buyer of one's coins the same protections when they go to sell the coins down the road.

The TPG's have some flaws inherant in the system, but they far outweigh the risks compared to when everything was bought and sold raw, IMHO.

Tyler >>

You say Tyler..."The protection isn't 100% but it is much better than just buying raw and hoping for the best. "

I can only say that NEVER NEVER NEVER should anyone buy raw and hope for the best....I do not think this is where a coin collector should be and if they are---oh well.....
That is not a fair comparison reason to validate buying plastic, and there are many reason to buy plastic, but this argument does not hold water----it should not even be in play.

BECOKA · February 23, 2007 8:40AM

<< 

<< There are lots of good reasons to holder coins. The holders offer protection. The holders offer an unbiased third party opinion on the coin's grade and authenticity, and they now offer a fun and competitive method to share one's collection and to compare it against others.

I like TPG's because they offer one layer of protection against fraud (buyer should still know how to grade for themselves) concerning overgrading, and a layer of protection against altered or counterfeit coins. The protection isn't 100% but it is much better than just buying raw and hoping for the best. Lastly, I like the TPGs because they offer a potential buyer of one's coins the same protections when they go to sell the coins down the road.

The TPG's have some flaws inherant in the system, but they far outweigh the risks compared to when everything was bought and sold raw, IMHO.

Tyler >>

You say Tyler..."The protection isn't 100% but it is much better than just buying raw and hoping for the best. "

I can only say that NEVER NEVER NEVER should anyone buy raw and hope for the best....I do not think this is where a coin collector should be and if they are---oh well.....
That is not a fair comparison reason to validate buying plastic, and there are many reason to buy plastic, but this argument does not hold water----it should not even be in play. >>

Unfortunately this argument is in play and there are thousands of general coin collectors that never learn to grade and just trust the dealers they buy from as to the quality.

larrynj · February 23, 2007 8:48AM

i do it for the money.

BigRed · February 23, 2007 9:23AM

<< Why do we as collectors and dealers continue to slab raw coins, crackout for the hope for an upgrade, cross for the perception of a better TPG holder, resubmit for an upgrade, and fret about the state of the coin market because of slabs? >>

I rarely do any of the things that you mentioned but I do buy most of my coins certified for counterfeit protection. I quess I don't have quite as much confidence in myself as some.

MrEureka · February 23, 2007 9:28AM

When you go to buy or sell a raw coin, do you 'discount' in your mind the price you are willing to pay or sell the coin because it is not slabbed?

LarryNJ said it more concisely with "I do it for the money", but my answer is that I discount raw coins when buying them for resale because the market demands slabbed coins. However, when buying for my collection, my time horizon for resale is such that I can ignore slabs, or the lack of same. In other words, I plan to take my collection to the grave.

bidask · February 23, 2007 10:02AM

<< When you go to buy or sell a raw coin, do you 'discount' in your mind the price you are willing to pay or sell the coin because it is not slabbed?

LarryNJ said it more concisely with "I do it for the money", but my answer is that I discount raw coins when buying them for resale because the market demands slabbed coins. >>

Actually thats the way I see my experience in buying and selling of raw coins too. It is just ironic that we discount raw coins because the market demands it and we discount slabbed coins based upon what we believe the coin grades raw.......??

MrEureka · February 23, 2007 10:10AM

we discount slabbed coins based upon what we believe the coin grades raw.......??

Sometimes, we pay premiums, for PQ coins.

RYK · February 23, 2007 10:17AM

<< When you go to buy or sell a raw coin, do you 'discount' in your mind the price you are willing to pay or sell the coin because it is not slabbed?

LarryNJ said it more concisely with "I do it for the money", but my answer is that I discount raw coins when buying them for resale because the market demands slabbed coins. However, when buying for my collection, my time horizon for resale is such that I can ignore slabs, or the lack of same. In other words, I plan to take my collection to the grave. >>

How does MrsEureka feel about this plan?

MrEureka · February 23, 2007 10:20AM

How does MrsEureka feel about this plan?

Mrs Eureka is welcome to join me and my coins.

RYK · February 23, 2007 10:20AM

Third party certification is part of the numismatic landscape, like it or not. It does not affect all areas equally and affects some areas only minimally, but it is here to stay. That does not mean that you cannot collect and enjoy raw coins; it just means that if you are collecting in areas in which there is high penetration of third party grading you might find yourself swimming upstream.

bidask · February 23, 2007 10:24AM

<< we discount slabbed coins based upon what we believe the coin grades raw.......??

Sometimes, we pay premiums, for PQ coins. >>

Ahhhh, so we discount raw coins by discounting the fact that it is not slabbed as the market demands.....and we discount the slabbed holder, not the coin, based upon what we believe the coin grades raw, which could be higher ( if PQ) or lower if market graded, than what the slab shows.

MrEureka · February 23, 2007 10:35AM

and we discount the slabbed holder, not the coin, based upon what we believe the coin grades raw, which could be higher ( if PQ) or lower if market graded, than what the slab shows.

You're getting warmer...

The plastic is never discounted. A slabbed coin is always worth sight-unseen money. But sometimes, the slabbed coin is worth a premium to sight-unseen money. These premium pieces are what we call "PQ" coins.

NowhereMan · February 23, 2007 10:47AM

The TPG approach is not perfect, but it's SO much better than the old days -- ESPECIALLY in regards to the (relative) safe harbor it provides an inexperienced buyer while he is training his eye, if he will take advantage of that safe harbor.

Rex

BRdude · February 23, 2007 10:47AM

I don't understand what the fuss is about. I don't understand anybody discounting someone elses desire to buy slabbed coins for the preservation aspect, or for their own assumed capital protection. I also don't understand somebody seemingly discounting anybody elses ability, or experience for prefering slabbed coins to raw coins. I have to wonder, if not for TPG services, how many of todays rarities would have diminished value because of the lack of protection slabs provide. I collect coins, some in slabs, some raw that go into albums, and a few that just bang around in the little boxes (nothing rare of course

. This is the coin collecting hobby, as it evolves.. Like it or not.
It kind of reminds me of the hunting world. Some would discount others way of legally persueing(sp?) their game of choice with their method of choice, when all they really do is delegitamize their own stance.
I say, live and let live. Don't badmouth someone for doing what they feel is right or best for them. Different strokes for different folks

bidask · February 23, 2007 10:49AM

<< and we discount the slabbed holder, not the coin, based upon what we believe the coin grades raw, which could be higher ( if PQ) or lower if market graded, than what the slab shows.

You're getting warmer...

The plastic is never discounted. A slabbed coin is always worth sight-unseen money. But sometimes, the slabbed coin is worth a premium to sight-unseen money. These premium pieces are what we call "PQ" coins. >>

Yes, thank you I do know what is meant/intended with a description of PQ and that the designation can bring a premium price if the two parties agree on what is ultimately in the holder.

However if the two parties agree that what is in the holder is a pig compared to the assigned grade on the holder, then a lower price will ensue.

Either way, both are examples of discounting the slab ( assigned grade on it).

And ironically at some point in its life the coin was most likely discounted being raw for the reason you pointed out ( 'market demands slabbed coins').

Ours is truly an existential hobby.

MrEureka · February 23, 2007 10:52AM

BRdude - When we speak of "discounting", we refer to the price of the coins. I, for one, mean no disrespect for anyone's method of collecting. At least in the context of the current discussion.

BTW, the above disclaimer has nothing to do with your affinity to firearms.

MrEureka · February 23, 2007 10:57AM

However if the two parties agree that what is in the holder is a pig compared to the assigned grade on the holder, then a lower price will ensue.

The question is, lower than what? My baseline is sight-unseen money. Nothing can sell for less, no matter how ugly. Of course, there are no "correct" answers.

bidask · February 23, 2007 11:08AM

<< However if the two parties agree that what is in the holder is a pig compared to the assigned grade on the holder, then a lower price will ensue.

The question is, lower than what? My baseline is sight-unseen money. Nothing can sell for less, no matter how ugly. Of course, there are no "correct" answers. >>

What is baseline sight unseen money based on?

Some sort of published guide?

What the two parties agree upon?

What is it?

MrEureka · February 23, 2007 11:18AM

What is baseline sight unseen money based on?

Some dealers actually bids on slabbed coins, sight unseen. Some of these sight unseen bids are on CCE, others elsewhere. All should be reflected on the Blue Sheet.

bidask · February 23, 2007 11:32AM

I think it is safe to say that a raw coin is discounted ( as to price) because it is not in a graded slab.

And a slabbed coin can be discounted (as to price, whether higher or lower) because of the grade given on the slab.

bidask · February 23, 2007 11:36AM

Now I am confused.....I know we discount the raw coin because it is not in a slab.

But a coin that is in a slab that has been given a certain grade that we don't agree with, do we discount the slab or the coin at that point??

I feel like I have been smoking something.

tradedollarnut · February 23, 2007 11:39AM

<< The plastic is never discounted. A slabbed coin is always worth sight-unseen money. But sometimes, the slabbed coin is worth a premium to sight-unseen money. These premium pieces are what we call "PQ" coins. >>

Hmmm. And here I thought that most coins worth more than sight unseen money were simply solid for the grade - with a few truly PQ coins smattered in for good measure!

If it has always been buy the coin and not the slab...

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